Transcript

Taylor: Okay, listeners, we have a kind of throwback episode for you all today. In many ways, first, we haven’t done a Replay episode in a really, really long time. I can’t even remember the last Replay we did. It was probably January or February, maybe? Maybe early March? No, because Ant-Man came out and then we stopped doing them. 

Katie: So probably January because that was when I think we were in kind of a lull. 

Taylor: Yeah.

Katie: With content, not us. Like Marvel was in a lull.

Taylor: So it’s been a minute since we’ve done a Replay. But then, of course, the whole premise of a Replay is a throwback. So we’re hitting you with double throwbacks tonight and I’m not going to lie before we dive into this, you all saw in the episode title which movie we’re replaying today. I have been dreading this Replay since we started the series for one reason and one reason only because I love this film, but it is so emotionally painful to watch. And if you don’t know, we record a few days or about a week or so before the episode comes out usually. And so I started actually watching or rewatching Black Panther, unbeknownst to me and unplanned, on the third anniversary of Chadwick Boseman’s death. So there were a lot of tears in the rewatching of this movie, but we’re going to power through. I’ll probably cry at least once, I’m going to try not to, but welcome to the episode on that really, really positive and upbeat note.

Katie: I really hope you don’t cry. I don’t know how to react to you when you do.

Taylor: You don’t handle my emotions well, ever. You never have.

Katie: I don’t handle anyone’s emotions well, but like, I don’t know, especially yours just feels so weird when you, like, show an emotion. I’m like, okay, stop.

Taylor: Thanks? I don’t know if I should be flattered because I guess I’m not that emotional, even though I think I’m definitely the more emotional of the two of us.

Katie: Oh, for sure.

Taylor: Or if I should just be like, why am I the exception to your ability to be empathetic?

Katie: I mean, I have the ability, but it’s not just you. I just think it’s more prominent with you that I just am like, I don’t know what to do here. And it’s just, it’s fine, but just don’t cry, please.

Taylor: I’ll give it a good old college try now that you asked so nicely.

Katie: Awesome thanks.

Taylor: All right, without any more preamble, we’re going to dive into this episode, break down Black Panther, especially now that we’ve seen the second one, we can talk about how it leads into it, which is it’s such a weird one, too, because obviously we know that this franchise was going to go in a very, very different direction. Ryan Coogler, the director himself, has said he wrote words that Chadwick Boseman would never say. And so a lot of it is really challenging to even look at from how it sets up because it was supposed to set up a completely different movie. There were different plotlines that were going to be explored and different character development and things like that. So this is a bit of a weird one because even though, like I said, it was supposed to set up other things and it definitely set him up for, you know, Infinity War and things like that. In terms of the actual Black Panther franchise, it stands alone because it’s so far from what the future of the franchise became because of those sad off-screen circumstances. So this will be an interesting episode.

Katie: I almost do, but I almost don’t necessarily fully agree with that because I do from the outside, yes, this was supposed to set up a completely different movie. The director, as you mentioned, has talked about where he wanted Chadwick’s character to go, where T’Challa was going to be. I mean, he did confirm his son was going to be a plotline regardless.

Taylor: Yeah.

Katie: But it was mainly going to focus on T’Challa having lost all that time because, remember, he was snapped. I know, we’ll get to Infinity War later in the Replays, which will probably warrant two episodes just because it’s a big movie. And then Endgame probably needs three for every hour of the film. 

Taylor: Probably. 

Katie: Oh, yeah, for sure. But I mean, I think with this movie being it was going to go in one direction, yes, but because this was my first rewatch since Wakanda Forever, there were actually a lot of things that I’m not sure were meant to translate into the second movie because I don’t think they were supposed to be points in the second film at all. But I do think there were a lot of moments that did kind of almost ominously lead into the second film. So when you do watch them back to back, there was a part of me that if I had had the time, I wanted to watch Wakanda Forever. Unfortunately, I finished the movie not long before we were recording, so I wasn’t able to just go right into the second movie. But I did realize I was like, oh my God, wait, it’s on Disney Plus, which I knew in the back of my mind, I did know that, but it didn’t click. I think, though, if you would go right into the second one, I think there would be some more of a seamless- and I mean, granted, we have Infinity War and Endgame in the middle, but there are more seamless parts to it than I think we think there are.

Taylor: No and I think that’s fair and I think a lot of that really speaks to Ryan Coogler’s vision as a director. I think he was, you know, under really unfortunate circumstances, able to look at his first film and say, all right, these are the things that we can bring forth. There’s one really big one I’m sure we’re going to talk about that is so important. And, you know, because of that, I think it really again speaks to his ability to craft a really beautiful narrative while also calling back to that original film that wasn’t initially meant to set up this kind of movie. So without further ado and without any more generalizations, we’re going to hop into it. As we know, this movie takes place right after Civil War. It’s, you know, he’s coming back. It’s been a week, I think they say in the film since his father’s death and the events at the United Nations. So basically he’s coming back from the events of Civil War because you think about all of his time tracking down Zemo and everything that happened there. And, you know, he’s returning to be crowned king. I think one of the first things that struck me was the fact that both his sister and his mother were wearing white, which we now know from the second movie, is their kind of mourning color. And so I think upon first watching, I didn’t understand it. Even the first few times I watched it never understood because I didn’t need to understand in the sense of like narratively, I didn’t need to understand that white was their color of mourning and they both, Ramonda and Shuri were wearing that because they were mourning the loss of their husband and father, respectively. Now, upon watching the second movie and you see everyone dressed in white after T’challa’s passing, it was very, it hits you like a pile of bricks exactly why that color is there and it adds more nuance to it. But it’s also really sad why we know that now.

Katie: Yeah, I can get behind that. It’s kind of interesting you were picking up on color choices as well because I think for the first time ever, I was really picking up on color choices and noticing just, I know this sounds stupid, but I never noticed T’Challa is almost always in black, you know? And I know that sounds dumb because he’s a Black Panther, but like, that doesn’t mean he has to only wear black. But you do see him almost always in, whether it’s a ceremonial robe that’s black or even when you see him when they have Klaue in custody, he’s wearing a darker sweatshirt. He’s almost always in a darker color, which is kind of interesting when it’s such a vibrant country and all the tribes have distinctive colors themselves. So it was kind of interesting to see that but I did pick up as well that Shuri and the Queen are both in white and then even as you kind of move throughout the film, Shuri tends to be in more color a lot and I think that really reflects her. And I think if I am wrong, everybody can point it out for me because why wouldn’t you? But I think in the newer film, in Wakanda Forever, I think she’s in darker colors, which I think is an interesting show of kind of who she was when she was just a teenager who was out here, you know, a princess helping her brother, creating all this tech for him who just became king. And now this girl who’s becoming queen herself and taking on all of this new responsibility along with mourning her essentially entire family.

Taylor: Yeah, it really you know, there’s a line and I don’t mean to skip around, but you gave the perfect segway. She has a line towards the climax of the film after T’Challa has what they all think been killed by Killmonger. And she says, First Baba and now my brother.

Katie: Oh, I know.

Taylor: And it’s just so tough because obviously, Coogler had no idea, but it just foreshadows so horribly everything that happens. And it’s just so awful. 

Katie: Well, and the other one and I know we’ve said this one from the get-go of Chadwick’s death, but the hauntingness of when T’challa comes back and he goes, ‘as you can see, I am not dead.’ That one just, it haunts you. 

Taylor: Yeah. 

Katie: As fans, it’s haunting. You just sit there and you’re like, oh my God. And even if you separate and you can separate the whole, you know, the actors themselves, unfortunately passed versus they had to kill the character off. I mean, regardless, even just looking at it from the MCU point of view, it’s weird if you watch these movies back to back and the first scene you see is he’s dying and you don’t even actually physically see him.

Taylor: Yeah. 

Katie: Like it’s just, I don’t have another word other than haunting. It’s just one of those that you didn’t know at the time, you never thought about. And now we just sit here and we have to think about it every time we watch it. 

Taylor: Yeah and it’s it’s truly gut-wrenching. It’s just an emotional heartbreak. There are so many of those points in this movie where it’s just to your point, I think in the opening, it just, leans towards something that no one knew was happening. And if you think about it, you know, I was Googling while I was watching because I was curious, Chadwick was diagnosed in 2016. If you look at the timeline in terms of when movies are coming out, obviously Civil War came out in 2016, so he had landed the role prior to his diagnosis. But with Black Panther coming out in 2018, there’s a very high likelihood that as he’s filming some of these scenes, and we know for a fact that as he’s filming scenes for Infinity War and Endgame, he was sick. There’s a high likelihood that while he was filming Black Panther because Black Panther came out just a few months before Infinity War, he was sick then as well. And so just some of these things that, you know, is said on screen, I can’t separate what I know is going on for Chadwick personally now, in retrospect, it’s very difficult to just watch it, you know, with a full lens tilted on the MCU versus understanding or projecting on it the real-life events that are happening or about to happen.

Katie: Right and I don’t want to say that there’s an ability to separate, I think for some people who maybe aren’t as devoted fans or maybe don’t even know, you know, who plays who or anything. I mean, I’m sure there are people out there who don’t really realize when they read that Chadwick Boseman passed away, that that’s who that was, you know because they don’t have that same connection that I think a lot of us as fans do. I mean, I can name 90% of the big cast members in real life. I know who they all are. I can respect that not everybody knows that. Just like I can’t sit there and do that for the Star Wars franchise. I can name like three. No, I can name two.

Taylor: You can’t even do the original big three?

Katie: Oh, wait. I was thinking, what’s her face? Lady Thor, whose name is now escaping me.

Taylor: Natalie Portman.

Katie: Yeah, I was thinking that trilogy.

Taylor: Ah, Queen Amidala.

Katie: But no, you’re right. I can do, wait who’s? Yeah, I can do the original three, the OG three, and then I can do her but that’s about it.

Taylor: Okay, well, that’s we’ve talked about this. That’s my failure as a sibling.

Katie: But my point is, I’m not a fan of those. You know what I mean? Like, I don’t I haven’t really I’ve seen, I think two of the movies. I haven’t really watched a lot of the other stuff. I just haven’t gotten there in my life, so I can’t name them. So there are plenty of people, I’m sure, who watch the MCU but don’t necessarily devote their lives to it, who might not put that together and might not feel this loss as deeply as, you know, we all do. So when they watch these movies back to back, I think that’s the ability to kind of separate it, not realize almost and, you know, it’s just a weird transition.

Taylor: Yeah, I agree. I do want to focus on something really quick at the beginning of the movie that I was wondering because I never really thought about it before, and it’s at the very beginning, I believe it’s T’Chaka who’s doing the voiceover when they’re doing the and animation and showing the history of Wakanda. And they’re talking about the vibranium meteorite that happened to land on what would become Wakanda. And maybe it’s because I’m viewing it now through a lens of space because that’s where I’ve been. I can’t help but wonder where did it come from?

Katie: Sorry, I just have to laugh because when I thought you teeing up that question, my brain was like, maybe that is the one that killed the dinosaurs and I thought that’s where you were going.

Taylor: No.

Katie: I was like, you know what? That’s a good thought. I never even thought about that. But to get to your actual question, because clearly, I was in a different zone.

Taylor: Totally different wavelengths.

Katie: My brain was just like dinosaurs, yeah, that might have been it, that could have been the end. Okay. Anyway, that is a good question. I want to confidently just say I’m sure a Celestial was born, broke apart a planet and it was a flying piece of a planet.

Taylor: Yeah, I would agree. I think it’s definitely got to be from somewhere. You know, a species. I don’t say it has to be, but I would like it to be a species that we’re familiar with. But the reason that I bring it up as well is, is there more? Obviously, Wakanda is, you know, really the central hub for vibranium on Earth. We know that somehow Howard Stark got his hand on some, though I think that is also from Wakanda. I think at some point someone says that.

Katie: I think so too, because I think they reference that in Age of Ultron.

Taylor: That’s what I thought. So really it’s the center of all vibranium on Earth. So I know that they said that they could mine it for hundreds of thousands of years and never run out. But hypothetically, then, if that piece of rock is from a larger piece of rock, I want to know if there’s more vibranium out there in the universe. And if so, are there other groups of people making technological advances and armor and war? Well, you know, using it for war, out there with vibranium?

Katie: I’m sure there are. I’m sure because as I said, I think, you know, a Celestial was born and we just moved on like the planet broke apart, whatever it was, and it went flying all over the place. I’m sure there are comets that are floating through space right now, maybe even in some of those meteor fields and just floating and they’re just full of vibranium. But I’m also pretty sure that other planets had to have been hit. We don’t know how close this planet was to Earth. Obviously, it was a long time ago. And so there could be planets that were a lot closer that could have been struck with a crap ton of it. I do think it’s interesting. It’s a little weird, though, because we’re so limited in what we see of the space realm and the cultures we see in the space realm and everything else. And it’s so much through one vantage point of whatever film we’re seeing. The Guardians 3 is a great example because obviously we only saw a Counter-Earth because we needed to see Counter-Earth versus, will we ever need to see another planet that has vibranium? Who knows? I don’t know where this could all take us. I mean, if we’re going to Secret Wars, I would think no, at least for now. But who knows if in the future. But yeah, I would definitely say I think there’s some more out there. This isn’t it. It’s just what we have on earth. I’m sure there are societies who we’ve seen a lot more advanced societies already that don’t have vibranium, so I’m sure there are plenty that do that are just, you know, eons ahead of us.

Taylor: Yeah, totally. I just like I said, I never really thought about it before, so I wanted to see what your thoughts were on it because you know, I think it’s because of the Secret Invasion and a lot of the conversations we’ve been having recently being so focused on space and what’s out there and the plotlines that we’re supposed to see later this year, you know, pending all the things we’ve talked about. And I guess I just for the first time was looking at it through that lens and not just the lens of on Earth, Wakanda, geopolitics, you know, things like that, which this movie is so centered in. But moving on in our, you know, kind of summary of the film, we see him go through his ritual battle and the challenge to fully take on the mantle of King. And he fights in M’Baku. And I think one of the things that is so cool about M’Baku’s character is that especially after seeing the second film, because to your point, this is my first time rewatching Black Panther since seeing Wakanda Forever. Understanding the relationship that he has with Shuri later on, stepping in as that pseudo brother, that protector, though she doesn’t need a protector, but like her emotional protector in a way, the one who keeps her grounded and stepping in for that role, obviously for T’Challa who’s no longer able to fill it. But then you look back to how they first started and he like calls her out in the middle of the proceedings saying, and you have this one who scoffs at tradition and the way they’re so antagonistic towards each other, even throughout the film, is so interesting to me because I think it’s such an important character development for M’Baku throughout not only this film, as he becomes an ally of T’Challa and you see him then help in obviously Infinity War as well. But then to see what happens in Wakanda Forever with his character and the relationships he builds and the way he becomes such a trusted member of the royal family without being of royal blood is so cool. So I just wanted to point that out.

Katie: Well, he is a royal blood, technically, right?

Taylor: I, yes, let me rephrase, not of this royal family’s blood. Like he’s not related, I don’t believe to T’Challa and Shuri.

Katie: Right but he’s the Jabari royal family, so that’s why he’s able to challenge T’Challa. Just as each of the tribes had a warrior, I think, that was ready because there of royal blood as far as their tribes. Not necessarily of that family.

Taylor: Yeah, no, I think you’re right because if you go back even to the voiceover that I was mentioning from T’Chaka, he mentions how the tribes kind of all merged into one. And if you kind of take that apart, then I’m taking that to mean that each one would have had its own ruling royal family, who then ceded power to what became the royal family of Wakanda with the Jabari tribe, kind of being a little bit more begrudging about that and they cede their power, but they live more separately. Like the other tribes are definitely more integrated into one society and the Jabari are definitely off kind of doing their own thing. 

Katie: Yeah so to try and connect the Jabari tribe then, even to how you were saying M’Baku’s story, they go together very seamlessly as he is royal blood to the Jabari tribe. Obviously, he comes, and he challenges T’Challa, which I mean everybody seemed a little shocked about, but he comes and he does that. And so you do see this animosity at the very beginning because he is following his customs. And his customs taught him that, you know, they don’t agree with how Wakanda ended up splitting power or I should say not splitting power. And the traditions that they put forward, they have their own traditions. But it’s interesting that almost within saving T’challa’s life, that was like such a big moment for him to change his perspective of, you know what, he can lead. He can be the person we need him to be and this royal family can be, especially this next generation, has the potential to be more. And I can look past what I’ve been taught my whole life from my tribe and open my doors and maybe be more welcoming. And I think what really gets him is at the end of the day, whether or not the Jabari tribe are fully integrated within Wakandan society or not, they’re Wakandans and they can agree upon that. And so I believe, I want to say it’s the Queen who says it, but she says, you know, there is an outsider sitting on our throne. He might be, and she didn’t say this part, but he might be royal blood but he wasn’t raised here. He doesn’t understand our traditions. And he’s out here willing to cause immense chaos in the world and open us up to something we’ve never done before because that’s what he wants. That’s his driving point. And I think that’s a big point from M’Baku, too. This is still his people, whether or not he and his tribe are fully integrated. These are his people, this is his home, and he is just as defensive about it as any of the rest of them.

Taylor: Yeah, I agree. And I think, too, one of the things that jogged my memory when you were talking about, you know, him and T’Challa and that kind of growing sense of trust between the two of them that you kind of see evolve throughout the film. The one thing that I thought of immediately was when he says to T’Challa, you’re the first king to step foot on Jabari land in centuries.

Katie: Exactly. 

Taylor: And obviously T’Challa did not do that of his own free will. He was on death’s door. But, you know, he made it a point of saying, well, you don’t really know how I’m going to rule as king. I was king for three days before this guy came and killed me. Like, there’s such a sense that T’Challa could be different and wants to be different. I think M’Baku recognizes that in his openness, his willingness to work together, his willingness to do whatever it takes to save Wakanda, but also not use the Jabari people like it’s this sense of we are one large Wakandan tribe. I think is what, you know, T’Challa was trying to get across and I think for one reason or another, I think maybe because M’Baku could see his integrity and who he is as a man, that it really made him see, like he has the potential to be a very different type of king. Also, the fact that you know, I don’t know how much M’Baku knew about why Killmonger was on the throne, but I think T’challa’s willingness to face head-on the mistakes of a father whom he adored. But still being willing to say, I love you and you were a fantastic father, but you really hecked up here, dude. And you know, I think that being willing to admit the mistakes of your forebearers and learn from them I think is something that is not easy to do. And T’Challa is just so regal in that sense, and his sense of right and wrong is so strong. And I think that comes through and garners a lot of respect from M’Baku.

Katie: So I want to actually use that, as I segway in a second to kind of talk about one of the bigger issues, I think overarching of the film. And by issues, I just mean like theme, not necessarily like not issue, it’s an amazing film. But I do want to say something, you were kind of as you were saying, you know, he was the first king in ages to have, you know, showed up here. I think it also goes to show a lot that both the Queen and Shuri went fleeing up to the Jabari tribe. I mean, that went to show that they trusted none of the other tribes at that moment because they were all loyal to the king. 

Taylor: Yeah. 

Katie: And, you know, that’s terrifying. People who have sat with your husband, the king only two weeks ago and now, you know, because their loyalty goes to who wins the challenge, they don’t give you a second look. And if Killmonger had wanted to murder the Queen and Shuri, I mean, what would have stopped him? And like, that’s kind of what I think was going through their brain is nobody here is going to stop them. And I think we see that with Okoye being so loyal. She’s like, I love T’Challa, but I chose and I swore loyalty to the throne, not who was on it.

Taylor: Yeah. 

Katie: And so I think that goes for all the tribes. And so it said a lot for them to trust the Jabari enough to go flee to them and say, listen, please help us. And if not, at least let us be here because we can’t stay in the city anymore. We’re not safe. Nowhere is safe for us. So I just want to point that out because I think that was a big point as well, seeing that the Queen and her daughter came fleeing up to M’Baku and his people. But now I want to take that segway, as you were mentioning, how T’Chaka, just as a king, has some questionable past records and I don’t think I ever felt so strongly as I was watching this film, the I don’t want to say anger, but just the tension between the cousins because I think obviously we all know T’Chaka made a mistake.

Taylor: Yeah.

Katie: He shouldn’t have left that kid there. I’m sorry, but Killmonger deserved better than that. We don’t know where he ended up after his father was killed. We don’t know what the rest of his childhood looked like. We did hear about, like, where he went to school and everything. But we don’t know anything else about his childhood. I couldn’t imagine the choice being made there and why that was the one they thought was worth it. But I think I never noticed so much how T’Challa was so angry that he was almost taking it out on Killmonger at the beginning, and I almost sat here with a new lens this time and I was like, what if he hadn’t been like that? What if he had been more welcoming to him and been like, hey, I’ve learned who you are. I’ve learned my father’s mistakes and I am sorry. What can we do? Because I think that, and obviously we wouldn’t have had a movie otherwise, but I think that would have been actually really interesting to see him almost take Eric in and be like, we screwed up in the past, but I don’t want to do that. You are family you deserve a place here just as much as everybody else. What can we do? How can I do that for you? And how can I make up for the wrongs of my father?

Taylor: Yeah, I think that’s an interesting point. I will say I think looking at Eric’s mental state by that point in the film, would that have been met with anything other than well, then let me kill you right here? I’m not really sure. I think by that point he was, he’d spent so many years killing, so many years training, so many years preparing to come back and take the throne that I think his rage would have blinded him to any overtures of peace. Though I do think it would have been an it’s an interesting thought experiment, you know, what would have happened if it had been handled a little differently? I think one of the things that I was struck by that I really didn’t think about in any of my previous viewings was the lost potential of that relationship. Because, you know, I think at the very end you obviously see the large amount of regret that T’Challa has that he had to kill Eric. And I think you can almost see on his face this look of we could have grown up like brothers, like if T’Chaka had brought him back, he was, what, 10 or 11? Clearly, T’Challa was the same age. They could have grown up like brothers and had a beautiful relationship and he could have had someone you know besides Shuri. There’s clearly an age gap there who was more his age to be around, and I don’t want to minimize his relationship with Shuri because obviously it’s very positive and we see the effects of losing that relationship on her in the second film. So not to diminish their sibling relationship at all, but I think that’s something that I thought about was T’Chaka took that opportunity away from both of them. Not only did he create this monster, but he took away the option for a familial connection between these two now men that now they’re forced to fight to the death when they could have grown up together and had this beautiful relationship. And because he decided to lie and protect, I guess, the reputation of the Wakandan royal family because he didn’t want it getting out that Eric’s dad did that. I guess that’s the reasoning behind it? I don’t know, I’m still a little unclear on that. That he chose to leave him there and not bring him back to the only family he really did have. I mean, the one other question I had was, where’s Eric’s mom? You know, you always hear him talk about his dad. Is his mom still in the picture or was he sent into the system? Like, we don’t know that to your point earlier. And, you know, let’s just say for argument’s sake that his mom did pass. T’Chaka took away the only family he did have by blood and that opportunity. And I think that’s something that cannot be diminished and that more than I think probably the throne and the lack of rights to it probably helps drive Eric towards his hatred toward the Wakandans.

Katie: Actually, you kind of bring up something that I’m not sure if it’s going to be a question or statement. So the only royal family I have to work off of is the one in England, right? 

Taylor: Right. 

Katie: I mean, that’s the one that gets all the press. We all know them. So obviously, I understand that in that royal family right now, William’s next in line for the throne. I just pretend the king doesn’t exist. 

Taylor: Don’t we all.

Katie: But he is next in line for the throne. And then obviously, Harry. Well, that’s kind of weird pretending Harry is back where he would have been. Harry would have been only on the throne if his brother abdicated or if he died, right?

Taylor: No, Harry’s, like, eighth in line now.

Katie: Oh, wait, wait. I’m sorry. Ignore the children.

Taylor: So are we saying no kids?

Katie: Yeah. Let’s pretend this is prior to all of the children. 

Taylor: Okay. My understanding then is yes, if William had abdicated and or had died while on the throne childless, it would have gone to Harry. Because if you look at the Queen’s father and his brother, who was king. 

Katie: Yeah. 

Taylor: When her uncle abdicated, it fell to her line. 

Katie: Right. 

Taylor: Because okay, I’m going back to The Crown here, which by the way, guys, such a good show. But my understanding from The Crown was she never thought she was going to be queen. She was always raised to just be a princess. But it switched the sibling line once her uncle abdicated.

Katie: Correct. Okay. So with that understanding, what throws me off with the Wakandan royal family is that there could be a challenge. So I almost wonder if part of it was also T’Chaka defending his familial line because could Eric have just been raised with them but then sat there and said, wait a second, I have a right to the throne, which is weird because that’s not how we view, that’s not how the royal family in real life works. But that’s kind of how it appears to me the Wakandan royal family is, is that they can challenge I mean, if Shuri wanted to, Shuri could have challenged.

Taylor: Well, you saw that scene where she jokes and she raises her hand.

Katie: Can I just really quick point out it’s so upsetting because that girl never expected to sit on that throne.

Taylor: Yeah, that was a joke, and five years later, she was sitting on it, motherless, fatherless, brotherless. 

Katie: She had no family.

Taylor: Yeah, Black Panther and Queen. Although didn’t she give M’Baku, he’s king? She made him king. 

Katie: Yeah. Yeah. Because she never wanted to be on the throne. 

Taylor: Well, right. 

Katie: And she never thought she would be.

Taylor: Right, much like Queen Elizabeth. But anyway, yes, your interpretation of the rules of Wakandan royalty, that’s how I’m reading it, too. Like, say, in this hypothetical world where T’Chaka did bring Eric home. Yes, when they come of age and T’Challa goes to take the throne like we saw here, let’s say everything else plays out the same, T’Chaka is murdered in Civil War and T’Challa comes home. Eric could have exercised his right. Now would he have done that to his cousin if they were raised together? Unclear.

Katie: But it’s a possibility.

Taylor: Yeah, totally. And it’s just an interesting thought experiment for sure.

Katie: Well, because then that makes me also look back at T’Chaka’s actions kind of being like he left the boy because he was protecting his lineage, you know.

Taylor: Which makes sense.

Katie: Not saying that necessarily was still the right choice, nor do I think that that might have been the full extent of it. But that could be a very strong reason as to why as well. Bringing back this boy who had a right to the throne, you know, that his brother would have never challenged him. And he knew that his brother respected him as king, even though he was making, I should say his brother respected him as king, but not necessarily the choices he was making nor the traditions he continued to keep alive. And then I think we see those trickle down to their sons. However, you see T’Challa being a little bit more open, especially by the end, to hearing why Killmonger was the way he was and what his thought process was. And he also had Nakia, who was also whispering very similar things into his ear.

Taylor: Well, not to mention, and not in any way to justify the decision that T’Chaka made because it was wrong. He left an 11-year-old boy there without a father. 

Katie: Who is his nephew.

Taylor: Yeah. You’ve now hurt this boy immensely by taking one of his parents out of the picture. I think the other variable here in him trying to protect the lineage is that this boy was not raised in Wakanda. He does not understand their ways, which means he’s potentially more likely to challenge than his brother who grew up understanding I am the younger brother or whatever. I’m assuming that’s how it works. Again, we don’t know that for sure, but I’m assuming that T’Chaka is older.

Katie: I believe he is because I think he says I feel like it’s said at some point in the movie.

Taylor: Yeah, like my little brother or something?

Katie: Yeah.

Taylor: Yeah. But anyway, so T’Chaka is older. I’m assuming then that his younger brother knew hey, growing up, my brother’s going to be king. I’m just going to do whatever I want, you know, obviously, I don’t have that same level of responsibility. And because he respected his brother and didn’t want to fight his brother, I’m not going to challenge. Now, you have this kid who was not raised in that way, was not raised with T’Challa up until that point. You know, maybe he might feel like he wants to challenge. And then you throw in the mix that T’challa’s father murdered his father, so now he’s angrier. So this man who, let’s say in this thought experiment is raising him, is also his own father’s murderer. That’s a whole nother layer. 

Katie: Well, it’s possible he wouldn’t have known that, though, the same way T’Challa never knew that.

Taylor: And that’s totally fine but stuff like that gets out. I mean, and he also does say, I found my daddy with Panther claws, so, you know, he kind of knew.

Katie: Unless sorry, this is the true crime part of me going off right now. If they really wanted to get away with murder-

Taylor: Oh my God.

Katie: I mean, they could have taken the boy without, I know this sounds like child abduction, but truly like they could have taken him and just been like, you know, unfortunately, your father’s been killed, but he has the little tattoo on his mouth. They can tell him that they’re taking him to Wakanda. They all have the tattoos to prove it. He knew Zuri as Uncle James, so he would have been trusting of him as an individual, and they could have taken him to Wakanda, explained that his father was killed and never been of the wiser. I mean, Zuri had made the promise, and he says it. I made the promise to the king. The secret was supposed to go down with him and the king. And so, like, it’s actually very possible if he would have just not been annoying, that he could have brought this boy and had no problem and he would have never realized that, you know, the king himself had killed his father.

Taylor: That’s a fair point. I’m not going to argue that. I do, though, want to talk about and this is kind of a good segway because we’re talking about, you know, the secret dying with Zuri and the king. I want to talk about the ancestral plane because you and I have talked about this through a few different episodes, a lot around Moon Knight. The idea of the multiple different afterlives we’ve now started to see peppered throughout the MCU. Obviously, Wakanda and Black Panther did it first. That was the first time we had truly ever seen the afterlife. They call it the ancestral plane. They’re all, you know, they start off as Panthers and then they move into their human form. We’ve now seen the Egyptian afterlife and we’ve seen Valhalla. So I want to bring that up because I think we’re seeing a pattern and it relates to the gods. We talked about obviously, Bast is referenced in this film multiple times and I just feel like there’s something brewing here that has yet to be truly explored and I just want to point that out. The other question I have relating to gods is I was struck by how the Wakandans have their Panther cave, right? The cave held up by the panther that is so iconically seen at the end of Civil War and obviously throughout this film as well. But the Jabari tribe has one for a gorilla that holds up M’Baku’s throne. My question is, do they worship a gorilla God?

Katie: Okay, so first to your first point, this film made me want to rewatch Love and Thunder, which shocks me. 

Taylor: Yeah. 

Katie: Yeah, I was like a little floored, but I do remember vaguely having these conversations with Love and Thunder as well. Kind of being like, because we saw Bast. We saw her in that Hall of Gods. So I think there’s like a whole untapped area and I think some of that’s because, you know, Marvel doesn’t quite know where to go with that. And I think we’ve seen that for a while. But I think that was really and that I think is part of why Love and Thunder was the way that was was just because Marvel doesn’t know what to do with this new realm of gods that are, you know, supposed to be bigger than everything. And then you have like Celestials knocking at the door who are also kind of being considered gods. It’s a very complicated system. And so I think they don’t want to get into it. And I don’t blame them because I don’t want to think about it. So I would actually though, want to rewatch that movie just because I think that makes the best references and points to how the gods are all like, we’re the same, but we’re not the same and we’re all from different cultures but we all are embodiments of different things. Like I would be intrigued to kind of watch these back to back fully instead of just back to back theoretically when they come out. To your point or your question then regarding the Jabari tribe and their gorilla, my understanding is that all the tribes had a different god. I actually think M’Baku might have mentioned their god? And instead of saying because if you notice, instead of saying like, oh God, they say, oh, Bast. You know, like they all say it and it always makes me think of like Percy Jackson when they’re like, oh, the gods, you know what I mean? 

Taylor: Yeah. 

Katie: But I was under the impression because I feel like he might say, instead of saying, oh, Bast, I feel like he says a different god’s name. I was under the impression they all worship another god. I kind of looked at the border tribe and because the way that they take care of their rhinos, I was like, maybe there’s a god that embodies a rhinoceros for them and that’s like their thing. And so that was my thought. That’s not a confirmed thing. But yeah, that’s just where I was going with it.

Taylor: I like that. I also think, you know, if that turns out to pan out, that that helps build out that realm of gods. You know, we saw that room full of them and we only knew the names of two or three maybe. You know more if you’re talking the Roman gods and the Greek gods who we probably just didn’t see on screen, other than Zeus, obviously, because you and I were Percy Jackson kids so we know that inside and out. But a lot of these other cultures, whether they’re, you know, based on real myths or completely fictional comic book creations, there was a whole room there of gods that we didn’t know. And I like the idea that maybe there’s a few more gods that we have had references to, but we just didn’t really know or the references were so subtle that it’s really not even anything to pick up on unless you’re looking for these references to gods because you’re trying to understand that particular realm of the MCU that, since Black Panther two, if you think about it, with Killmonger being in the afterlife, it sort of counts. That realm really hasn’t been touched. And it’s going on kind of a year or like nine months, which in our family nine months is almost a year. And so there’s a lot of, you know, questions about that.

Katie: Well, and I think I mean, think about this this way and maybe this once again, I could be wrong. This is just my thought process. Those who are allowed in the afterlife with the Black Panther had to be royalty, right? Like we see that in the ancestral plane or I should say, had to have been the Black Panther. 

Taylor: I don’t necessarily think that’s true. I think who he was seeing were former Black Panthers because he was being anointed as Black Panther and King. Cause think about it, T’Challa at that point is still alive. He’s entering the ancestral plane as a live person. But I think when, for example, Ramonda dies, she probably enters the afterlife, you know, even though she wasn’t Black Panther.

Katie: Well, I guess maybe I should say my thought process is the royal family the way that they are likely buried upon death, they would go to the ancestral plane, which has the focus on Panthers due to Bast, and that’s where they’re at. I guess my thought process then is, I don’t think every tribe goes there.

Taylor: I see what you’re saying now.

Katie: Yeah. I think every tribe might still have, I think they all still look up to Bast and everything else. But I do think with that animal focus point, I think has that possibility that they all are going to an ancestral plane, but I don’t think it’s necessarily the same one across the board, especially because if you do look at the Jabari tribe, they are so removed from the Wakandan society and world that like imagine going to that plane upon death and you’re like with a bunch of people you didn’t want to be with in the living world.

Taylor: Yeah.

Katie: So I don’t know. I kind of feel like almost there’s a completely other aspect to that as well. I think they maybe all have their own versions of the ancestral plane that they still worship. And then Bast is kind of still that overarching goddess that they look to.

Taylor: Yeah, I mean, I could get behind that. I think that’s interesting and not something I really thought about, but I like the idea of the follow through between each of them having their own God and then therefore their own afterlife that really mirrors that god. Because I mean, again, like looking at the two afterlives we’ve seen thus far, obviously the Egyptian looked Egyptian, had Egypt’s gods. And then if you think about Valhalla, well, it’s crafted to look like Asgard, right, like that was my impression. Obviously, we didn’t see it very much. And there was a character that should have been there that wasn’t.

Katie: Or should there have been? We never will know.

Taylor: Oh, my God, I can’t do this in this episode. But I say all that to say it looks like Asgard. So it’s crafted kind of in the image of what they worship, which was Odin and that royal family, essentially, because they’re the gods, which is also kind of confusing because they’re gods worshiping gods so.

Katie: Rick Riordian does the same thing in the Magnus Chase series where they like all look up to Odin because he’s the Alfather. But like, they’re all gods. I don’t get that because are you not all really the same? And then, I think then they kind of- I can’t name them all now, but they, like, talk about their relationships and who’s married to who and like, who’s the brother and sister of who. And then that muddled that even more because I was like, so it’s not even like he’s like everyone’s dad. Like at least he’s Thor and Loki, well, he’s Thor’s dad. So I could see that kind of tier, but I don’t know, I just, it’s so weird. But that’s what they did in that book series as well. So I just was like, you know what? I guess Odin’s just, he’s just it. I guess everybody just thinks Odin’s like the crap and here we are.

Taylor: Yeah, go Odin, I guess though, not if you’re in the MCU because everybody hates Odin. But I know there’s so much more in the film that goes on. I think the next thing I want to talk about, and this is a retroactive viewing post-Secret Invasion is Ross because obviously this was his first time really being a starring character, right? He’s in Civil War, which I always forget. He’s in Civil War, he’s kind of introduced there. Then he has more of a prominent role in this film then he obviously becomes a trusted advisor, I guess you could say, to the royal family. But knowing that Ross is a Skrull in Secret Invasion, I don’t think it goes this far back because we’ve talked about the timeline, but it is interesting to see that character now and knowing where he goes and wondering from this point what happens to you, you know? Because you firmly believe that it’s possible he was not himself in Wakanda Forever. I happen to think he was. But if you’re following along your theory somewhere between the end of this movie and Wakanda Forever he was body snatched. So, you know, obviously, there’s a lot that happens between this movie and Wakanda Forever.

Katie: I was going to say, I mean, you’ve got quite a few years there. 

Taylor: And, you know, a whole alien invasion to boot. But I just want to point that out. I don’t know that there’s a ton that we can theorize off of it because there is so many variables and so much that happens. But because we talked about him quite a bit in our Secret Invasion coverage, I definitely wanted to point out, hey, this is our guy and we happen to be 99.99% sure he’s actually himself here.

Katie: Yeah, I will say that crossed my mind watching it like when he first popped up, my brain was like Skrull and then I was like, no, no, no. We know there’s no way. And also, if we go off of our reasoning from some other things we talked about with Secret Invasion, like there is no reason that the Skrulls would have been body snatching. Especially like that kind of person, that level of person at that point. So I yeah I passionately say I don’t think he was a Skrull by now. But yeah to your point there’s not really a lot we can say. I think this is the closest to the timeline we’re going to be able to say definitively. I mean, to the people who think Rhodey was taken after Civil War, if we run with that theory, maybe Evert Ross was as well.

Taylor: Well, that’s a flawed theory to begin with.

Katie: Oh, I know. I don’t. I mean, I literally there is not a single gambling chip that goes into that bucket because I refuse. But I mean, you know, to look at all the angles that is a theory that’s out there. That’s something floating around. And so if we want to run with that, maybe they got a two for one deal.

Taylor: I think I forgot about the Rhodey thing because it boils my blood, so I think I blocked it out so I don’t punch a wall. 

Katie: Fair.

Taylor: And I hate that it gives credence to the fact that perhaps Ross was also not himself. I don’t want to think about that. I appreciate that you brought it up. We’re going to move on to a new segment because I refuse to react on mic to something like that.

Katie: Hey, that’s okay. And that’s fine because the last thing I got to say in overall is just because I got to put this out there before I forget. And I’m happy to leave the Skrull conversation way in my back, my back window. I just want to say, because I know we haven’t gone into it, but I don’t know if we need to because I think we’ve talked a lot about it throughout alot of other episodes actually is about Killmonger as a whole. I just need to put on the record, obviously he is one of our favorite villains. 

Taylor: Oh, 100%.

Katie: We absolutely love him. Michael B. Jordan had one of the best performances, I mean ever, in my opinion as an MCU villain. I’m not going to lie. I think he has one of the best, if not the best.

Talor: I agree. I think the only person and I think we’ve said this before, that can even come close to his performance as the villain. We’re going to leave the heroes in a separate category because obviously, RDJ is unmatched. Say what you will about Tony, but RDJ is the king. He just is. But in terms of villains, the only person who comes close is Bale as Gorr the God Butcher.

Katie: Yeah.

Taylor: And that comes down to, again, writing, but also it’s Christian Bale. I mean, he’s a phenomenal actor. We’ve all seen him play ridiculously good roles, Batman, all that good stuff. But again, you empathize and I think that’s the key, not to take away from Michael B. Jordan’s performance because it’s absolutely stellar and beat for beat perfection. But he is also aided by a phenomenally written character. And I think Coogler just absolutely nailed Eric Killmonger in this film and then managed to cast the perfect actor to bring him to life. And it’s just an utterly flawless performance.

Katie: Yeah and that’s why I just wanted to bring it up, because I don’t, there’s not in my opinion a lot that we need to go into depth with it, but I don’t want to just completely gloss over him as a villain because he is such a good villain. And as we just established, arguably the best that has been ever put in the MCU as far as just everything, I mean, if we were to rank unbiased by a certain categories, I mean, he would pretty much take the cake in all of them.

Taylor: Yeah, I agree.

Katie: So I just want to put it out there so it doesn’t feel like it’s glossed over. We love Killmonger. I mean, and I still the entire time I was thinking about him showing up in Wakanda Forever and how I was lik *gasp*.

Taylor: Literally so iconic, so good.

Katie: Oh, so good. And I mean, just the way he comes in, I mean, and also I love Michael B. Jordan, so that doesn’t hurt that I like literally love him. So I mean, yeah, I just wanted to make sure that got put out there. That’s really the last thing I have to say as a whole, other than the fact that, you know, we move into Infinity War. Obviously there are some films in between, but as far as this character, we move into Infinity War. And so something else that was interesting to put into perspective was and I watched this prior to Infinity War like we all did, we did the however many movies we all had to watch, you did one a week leading up. But I mean, seeing Infinity War and having the perspective of that and Endgame, I mean, there were some things I think also in this film that you really look at and you’re like, wow. Because you I mean, even just him saying to Okoye like this is no place to die and then to be dusted. I mean, unfortunately, the Black Panther seems to have, whether on purpose or due to unfortunate circumstance, a very large theme of death that runs through the entire franchise, including the appearances those characters make in Infinity War and Endgame.

Taylor: I agree and I think that goes perfectly with one of my final points. I have a couple. Two are larger and then two are just really quick things that I just absolutely think this movie is insane for and insane like a really good way. But one of the things that I was really, really struck by in this watching, I think because truly the last time I believe I watched this film, was probably when they did that special when Chadwick died three years ago. I have avoided it like the plague because I can’t get through it without sobbing at least twice. And it’s different parts I feel like every time. I think the last time I watched it I cried through the whole thing and my mom just stared at me because she was so confused.

Katie: That sounds like Mom.

Taylor: It does. Mom, we love you, but you have no idea what’s going on in any of these films and you didn’t know why I was crying that hard. It’s fine. One of the things that I was struck with in this watching, even though it was on that anniversary and that was obviously top of mind, it’s never not going to be when I watch this film. It’s just the amount of hope. And I think that’s one of the things that made me saddest watching it is because this movie ends on such a hopeful note. You see him smiling, you see him helping, you know, the children of Oakland. You see him opening up to the United Nations. And it was supposed to set up such a bright and beautiful future of this character. Obviously, he was supposed to be one of the big three moving forward. And then you can’t even take away what it did off screen, too and the absolute groundswell and the cultural movement that it created. And the one word that I keep coming back to is hope.

Katie: Oh, listeners, here we go.

Taylor: I managed to breathe through the last one, so I’m going to try to breathe through this one. There was one earlier in the episode, but I think I’m going to try really hard. You know, it’s that hope that I think made me saddest because it never got to be realized in the way that it was supposed to be or intended to be and not to take away from a Wakanda Forever or Letitia Wright’s performance because she was lights out stellar in that film and it was so emotionally heavy. But it’s so dark and heavy and full of death. And this movie, though people die and it starts with death. It ends on such a hopeful, bright note. And I am just so sad that it was not realized. It was not able to be realized and brought into the next film because you had to immediately start with the scene that I will forever be traumatized by. So that is just something that I was really thinking about a lot, especially towards the end of the film.

Katie: Yeah, and actually I think that kind of makes me think. Well, okay, let me just start with saying I do miss and I think we’re getting closer to this point in phase five, but I think it’s been a while. I do miss the connections. I mean, we come right out of Civil War, right into Black Panther. Those are back to back movies. And it’s not long from my perspective, because obviously we have movies in between, so maybe that’s why I don’t feel like it’s long. But then when we jump back into Wakanda, we are going to war already, you know, against Thanos to your earlier point. So I think there’s a part of me that’s sad because I miss that connection. You know, how we sat there, even with Bucky as the end credit, how they sat there and, you know, immediately you’re like, well, that’s why Bucky was in Wakanda like we all get it, and then we even see it in the Falcon and Winter Soldier, we see his process of what he was going through. So I think it’s, you know, I miss those kinds of things. I feel like we haven’t had a lot of those recently. But then, as you were saying, it is sad because this one came so late and actually I think we’re going to have a very similar thought process with the first Doctor Strange. That when they come so late as establishing movies because think about Iron Man, think about Cap, think about Thor, all of the first films, those all happened within the first three years of the MCU being formed. Those were all pivotal films that, you know, established characters for us versus having these established characters come in, or I should say these establishing movies come in right before things like these big battles. It does kind of make it smaller. It feels like the end of this film got almost vacuumed up into everything else. And then, of course, everything that happened off screen that also impacted everything. But like I said, I think we’re going to have the same thought with Doctor Strange, the effects of what should have happened after Doctor Strange and where that was supposed to lead us and we couldn’t because we got stuck in the vacuum of Infinity War and then the MoM writers kind of just like forgot it? But that’ll be when we handle Dr. Strange’s replay for the first film. But yeah, I think I understand your point. I agree. I think unfortunately that is just the nature of how some of these films come out. The order they come out. Look at Captain Marvel. She fell really in between the cracks, quite literally.

Taylor: Yeah and then, I mean, you add on to it, obviously what happened off screen, and it’s just a perfect storm for not being able to really realize on the hope and that is it’s really sad. You know, you can’t help but think about that at the end. What they were setting him up for you wonder and I know you know, Ryan Coogler has said you’ve given us little hints about what was in the original script and the things that he was going to talk about. But you can’t help but wonder what was that really going to look like and how is it going to come to life with Chadwick? And when you hit the end of that film, you think about it because you’re expecting him to be able to do that. So that is sad. And I made it through mostly that. But now we’re going to my last point before I hit two quick things is that obviously, we talk about the beginning, there are some things that were not they were big things supposed to be in the you know, in this film, but they ended up having much wider ramifications. And I think one of the things that is really, really a big deal because of the first 5 minutes of Wakanda Forever is Killmonger’s decision to burn the Heart-Shaped. Because obviously we know Nakia saves one, the one to save T’Challa during this film. And then unfortunately when he needs another to save his life, there aren’t any and that’ due to Eric’s decision here. And it truly kills T’Challa in the end. I mean, obviously we know, but narratively, strictly within the MCU, it kills him.

Katie: Yeah, I get that.

Taylor: All right, now we’re done with all this death and stuff, and I just want to hit two really quick things. One, the soundtrack to this movie, unmatched. I know the Guardians are, they have great soundtracks, but this one, to me, maybe it’s because I listened to it the whole time I was abroad. So, so, so good.

Katie: I think, here’s what I differentiate with those. The Guardians’ soundtrack is not original. It’s all pulled from, you know, the seventies, the eighties, whatever. Verses, this soundtrack was made specifically for this movie. And I think that’s the difference is like, oh my God, all these awesome songs from like the seventies and you’re like, yeah, of course we’re going to bop to them, who wouldn’t bop to them? But this was made by Kendrick Lamar for this movie and you can tell. So I think that’s the big thing.

Taylor: And it’s perfectly used throughout the film. I know we talked about this in Wakanda Forever too, but Coogler’s use of music throughout the film is just, he and Gunn are in a league of their own. Everybody else yeah, sure, there’s some good, obviously Watiti using Immigrant song like that’s iconic, but that’s like one example, right? Like it’s not a whole film. All three of Gunns’ trilogy, or all three of the movies in Gunn’s trilogy, both of the Black Panther films, insane in their uses of music. Those two top notch in the MCU for their use of music. And my last thing is I cannot go through this replay without shouting out my favorite scene, or I should say my favorite shot, not my favorite scene. My favorite camera shot in any MCU film is the scene where Killmonger is walking on to the throne and Coogler shows you how upside down Wakanda has become by spinning the camera. Oh, my God. I mean, cinematically, that shot is perfect. It’s just magical. And I have to, I could not get through this episode without saying it. 

Katie: Okay, I have to agree with that. So that is a pretty awesome scene and the way it’s filmed, it’s just I mean, wow, you know, just wow.

Taylor: I waited for it. I waited for it. I was like, this is the best shot in the MCU, hands down, bar none period. But I think we’re done. I think that is everything that we wanted to talk about in this episode. Black Panther is forever a very interesting film because of all of the things that have happened off screen, but that has not taken away from how fantastic this film really is. It still holds up all these years later. Five years after its release, one of the best MCU films nostalgically I love it, even though it pains me to watch it. And I definitely recommend if you haven’t seen it in a while to go back and rewatch it, because I think you’ll be pleasantly surprised if you don’t shed a couple of tears. But on that note, definitely make sure that you are following the show on your podcast platform of choice, because we’ll be doing other fun, different episodes coming up. Katie, you’ll get into that in a little bit, but the best way to keep up with us is to subscribe or follow on your pod catcher of choice. You can also make sure you’re checking out the website. We have a calendar on there, the blog is on there. So there’s all kinds of good stuff and it’s definitely a really good hub for lots of resources. And last but not least, you can also check out our home page of the website, which has affiliate links to help support the show.

Katie: Keep up with us on Twitter at SisAssembledPod and Instagram and Threads at SistersAssembled so you guys know when everything new is coming out, when we’re just on our own little adventures, whatever you want, we’re already doing it. So just go give us a follow in whichever platform you prefer. And as I sort of alluded to earlier, our next episode is going to be our Dr. Strange replay where will be watching the first Dr. Strange movie again and doing the same thing we just did here, breaking it down and talking about it in this new lens and perspective. And that’s going to be fun too, because we already have a second movie to also reference as we look at that one versus some of them didn’t or some of them had like four others. So it’ll be fun to look at and we’re excited to do that one to make sure you guys are ready for that next week. And as always, keep up with us because Marvel just blew minds, so let’s talk about it.