Transcript

Taylor: Listeners, we have quite the episode for you today. Just to give you a little bit of a behind-the-scenes look into what it’s like to produce our show. We were talking just chatting a little bit before we got on and things got heated already before we even turned the mics on. 

Katie: Not between us.

Taylor: No, yeah, no, we’re in total agreement. 

Katie: I was like, hold on, we were not fighting before this episode. 

Taylor: Yeah, no good clarification because I have said that we’ve gotten on mics heated at each other before. This is not one of those moments. We were heated at a general scenario but on the same side of said scenario. So if you’ve looked at the title, you know that we’re gonna do our Replay for Doctor Strange today and there’s quite a bit to dive into here, so I’m going to keep this intro nice and short so that we can really get into the meat of this episode because wow, one Replay I have a lot to say and I know Katie does too, because we chatted. So Katie, without further ado, kick us off because let’s do this thing. 

Katie: Yeah, I mean, this is definitely as a Replay and this is actually something Taylor said prior to us recording, and I completely do agree with her. As a Replay, I think this is one of the best ones I’ve gotten to go back and watch in a while. I don’t think I’ve seen this film and I think I said this about probably Black Panther last time, but I don’t I truly don’t think I’ve seen this film since we did the whole binge thing leading up to Infinity War that I know a lot of the fans were doing. So at least five years and I do have to just say, I distinctively remember when this film came out and I hated it. I couldn’t stand it because I think it was the first time Marvel did something super, super different. It wasn’t the same old kind of, I don’t want to say the formula, but it was also just character-wise so strange? If you will.

Taylor: Pun intended. 

Katie: I was like, I don’t know how else to say that, but truly it’s so strange. And even that opening scene, I remember watching it as I was watching it last night, I remembered watching it back in like 2016 and I was like, I remember hating this. I remember sitting here and I was like, my brain cannot, I already don’t know what this is. I don’t like it, it’s just too much for me to digest. And obviously, over time, I remember my second rewatch of it just as much because I remember being like, why did I not like this? This is so good. I really love this movie. But this last rewatch, this Replay, now that I have like a multiversal mindset, it hurt my brain a lot. It really had me thinking. It had me overthinking. It had me analyzing. I think there’s so much to unpack from this movie now, more than just the mystic arts. 

Taylor: Yeah. Talking about unpacking, I don’t even know where to begin. 

Katie: I don’t either.

Taylor: Because there are so many things that I want to build off of. So to start with, probably the most accessible to echo your thoughts about my thoughts on just rewatching this and to actually say what I said earlier on mic, you know, I genuinely enjoy this. I think I’ve said before, I’m not a huge re-watcher. You know, there’s so much content out there, even just outside of Marvel that is so good that to me it’s like I’m going to watch something again and of course, I’ll do it if I haven’t seen it in a while and there’s like a Marvel movie coming out so I’m not going in totally lost and can actually speak with some sense of authority, but it’s not like my ideal situation. However, rewatching this film, I was really struck by how much I enjoyed it because I think to your point, I don’t remember how I felt in 2016. To give a little bit of context. I had just joined the fandom earlier in 2016 when Civil War came out, so I was very new. I had, I think, caught up at this point. So I had seen everything, but I was nowhere near the level of involvement that obviously I am now. So as a relatively new person in the fandom, I don’t really remember it. But watching it now and then also having the context of Multiverse of Madness to layer in there. This film is spectacular. Not only does it, I think, explain some things okay. You know, that’s that’s a whole nother section that we’re going to get into. But the narrative of the film is actually really well done. Obviously, Ben is great, Benedict Cumberbatch is fantastic. But even if you take him out because he’s fantastic in any of the movies, regardless of how they actually turn out, if you just look at like the cinematography and the actual writing of the film, it is leagues beyond Multiverse of Madness. It has a coherent storyline. It is actually really beautiful just the way it’s shot as well. And I’m not trying to crap on Sam Raimi. You all know I love the Tobey Maguire trilogy. I was really excited when Raimi took over. However, upon seeing this film again, I can’t help but think, wow, I really wish they would have let Derrickson do the second one, because I think he has such a good grasp on the Doctor Strange character, and how to make him likable.Because how many times have we said, you know, like Tony Stark, he can be kind of a butthole and he can be really hard to like sometimes. But I actually found that I really liked the character in this film. I felt for him and I wanted him to win. And that can be tough with characters who are so egocentric. And I just thought Derrickson did such a good job and there’s I’m sure we’ll get through it,there’s like plot threads that hang because you switch directors. I just want to start off my little spiel by saying this is rapidly rising, I think as one of my favorites of the first three phases just on a rewatch. I think one, there’s a lot of meat to it, but two, it’s also really, really well-done and I think it can be really difficult to do a character like Doctor Strange because he is so mystical and so you run the risk of really alienating a lot of people because it’s to your point earlier, so far out from what we’d seen up until that point. But if you look back at it with a little bit more context, you know, having seen what we’ve seen since, it’s really, really solidly built and is a really good film. 

Katie: I agree and I want to work backward and through what you said just because of recency bias. I remember the last thing you said more than the rest of it as we went through the conversation. But I do think as somebody who’s seen what we’ve seen now, the whole mystical thing doesn’t throw me off. That’s why even, you know, when I was saying it all earlier in 2016, as somebody who, I still I had been a part of the fandom, but it was still pretty casual. I mean, I was definitely ramping up by that point, but it was still fairly casual. This was just groundbreaking. It was just different. Now, obviously, we’ve seen so many I don’t even know how to categorize them. I don’t want to say different, but just out there sort of things between not just the mystic arts, but, you know, we have Wanda, who has broken free of just shooting little pew pew balls with her things in, you know, Age of Ultron. Well, she just threw like, these little magical balls pretty much everywhere. And she was like, here’s my power energy and I was like, okay.

Taylor: Shooting her little pew pew balls. That’s what we’re going to talk about with the Scarlet Witch in the future. Her little pew pew balls. 

Katie: I think Elizabeth Olsen would endorse it, so I’m okay with it. 

Taylor: I totally agree. 

Katie: But up until that level, that’s really, that was the mystic we saw. I mean, we obviously see such a different thing now. And we will get into Multiverse of Madness and this movie and just marrying the two. But I mean, now we have cosmic, now we have the Eternals which are on a whole just I don’t even know how to explain them kind of level. And so I think it is really interesting to go back now because I feel like there’s another level of enjoyment too, because it’s not out of left field. It’s not so like, oh, well, we just had Captain America and all the Avengers fight at an airport, but now we have some random dude and like a Mirror Dimension and the whole world looks wacky, what is going on? I think this movie is awesome. I think we should break into Multiverse of Madness, actually first. I think that’s one of the big, I don’t want to say the big three topics, but I do think there are about three big topics to discuss with this. And we’ve talked at length about Multiverse of Madness. I think we had two reactions episodes and then we had a couple of episodes after, I believe, that tied into other things and how Multiverse of Madness and characters and everything else tie into other things. You know, I only gush about it because of Wanda, and it’s only because of her being in it, not even because of her character, because I have talked about that already. It is a shame because this movie was awesome and I think it had a lot of potential to show Strange differently. And remember, we have an Infinity War and Endgame in the middle. We see Strange in both of those films in two very different ways. Well, a little less in Endgame, but more in Infinity War and in Ragnarok.

Taylor: Oh yeah. 

Katie: And an end credit scene. He is in three other appearances before Multiverse of Madness. And then we get to the Multiverse of Madness and, you know, if you were to just watch the two Strange franchises back to back, it’s hard. It’s kind of a stark difference. 

Taylor: Yeah, I could not agree more. I’m trying to think about how to verbalize that difference because I think he is another one and we’ve talked about this a lot with Natasha, who really suffers from multiple directors. 

Katie: Yep.

Taylor: We’ve talked about how Natasha is different from Iron Man 2 to I was going to say Civil War, that’s also one. But before that, even Winter Soldier to The Avengers to Age of Ultron, she’s different in every one. The only one that is similar is, of course, the Avengers and Age of Ultron, because it’s the same director, and then I guess a little bit maybe Winter Soldier to Civil War but even then, she’s different. But like Natasha, you know, to your point, look at Strange in this film and then you look at Strange in Multiverse of Madness and don’t even forget, before Multiverse of Madness, we had No Way Home. 

Katie: I totally forgot that movie existed. So he was actually technically, he was in four films prior to Multiverse of Madness, prior to his second movie.

Taylor: Yeah. 

Katie: Which is, can I just say unheard of? 

Taylor: Yeah, I mean that’s insane. 

Katie: Because that never happens. 

Taylor: And that goes to a point that I want to hit later but I do want to stick to this right now. I think what is tough is you see so much growth and that I think is what makes him so likable in this film, is that he starts off as this real jack weed. And you’re like, I kind of hate this guy, but you know, he’s going to get better. Obviously, we’ve seen the film before, but I think I don’t really ever feel like I attached to him as much as I did during this watch where I was like, you know what? I feel bad for him. You know what? I’m seeing him grow. I see the way he takes on that responsibility that when Mordo tells him, you’re just a selfish little jerk who’s too afraid, he takes that to heart. He says, no, I’m not. You watch me speak truth to power and call out the Ancient One for doing something outside of the laws of nature. You watch me step up and save Earth from the Dark Dimension, and he does it. Maybe he does it in a way that Mordo doesn’t like. But he steps up and he even says to Mordo, you need to step up and fight. That is such an important moment because it shows that Stephen is taking responsibility for something far greater than himself, right. But then you get to I mean, I think he does that in Endgame. I think he does that, sorry, not Endgame, in Infinity War. Obviously, I think he does that even the little bit that he’s in Ragnarok. So that I think is consistent and I’m okay with those appearances he’s not in Endgame enough to really give me too much of an impression. It’s very little and I don’t even know that he really even says a line. I don’t remember.

Katie: I don’t either. 

Taylor: To be honest, it’s been a really long time, so we’ll look for that when we do that Replay because it’s rapidly approaching. But the next real moment where he’s got a major appearance is No Way Home. And you know, not to crap on No Way Home because it’s a darn near perfect movie but I will say I’m annoyed with how Strange is characterized looking back through the lens of this film because he’s back to being a reckless jerk. And, you know, I know that he wants to help Peter and that’s great. But you obviously see the ego is back because he won’t listen to Wong, who’s now the Sorcerer Supreme. You see that, you know, he’s defying the laws and the rules again. And yes, he did that at the end of Doctor Strange for sure, but he was doing it for a much grander purpose than helping some kid get into college. And I think that then continues into MoM, where you see the dark side of Stephen Strange and you see how his variants in every iteration basically are the cause of the end of their universe, or at least play a large part in the universes that we did see. And now I’m sure that’s probably pretty comic-accurate based on the little bit that I know about Stephen Strange. However, it is frustrating to see that character take a step back when he became so likable by the end of his own first film. 

Katie: You know, I think you articulated that very well because I can get behind that. I think we see him taking on the responsibility in Ragnarok to protect the New York Sanctum. He is in charge of it. We see that. I don’t actually know when he becomes Sorcerer Supreme. 

Taylor: I wrote that in my notes. I literally wrote, when does he become Sorcerer Supreme? And who decides? Because they never say it at the end of this film and then he suddenly just shows up at the end credits scene, basically saying, I don’t even think he says it then, right? He doesn’t say to him, he just says he keeps a list to Thor. 

Katie: Yeah, he keeps a list of high-risk individuals. 

Taylor: Yeah and then all of a sudden we get to I guess his next appearance would be Infinity War and he’s like, I’m the Sorcerer Supreme. And it’s like, since when? Don’t get me wrong, that’s what you’re supposed to be. But who decided and when did they decide? 

Katie: So I’m going to say this. I do vaguely, vaguely feel like they mentioned it in the beginning of Infinity War before Hulk crashes in the Sanctum. I feel like he and Wong are having a conversation. I feel like it’s mentioned there. I don’t actually know, though, how that flows. Like, I don’t know when exactly he takes on that responsibility, I’m not sure. But I do think we see a pretty continuous line with him. I mean, even up to him giving up the Time stone and knowing the sacrifice he was making and knowing he was killing himself in the process because he knew that at the end of the day, in five years they would solve the problem. The Avengers would come back and they would bring everybody back.

Taylor: Which is actually eerily similar to what he does with Dormammu. 

Katie: Exactly. 

Taylor: You know, looking back, he sacrificed himself. We literally don’t know the number of times until Dormammu got annoyed enough to be like, all right, you get what you want. 

Katie: Well, exactly. So I actually, I do see that change in No Way Home. I actually think it comes down to and maybe this is more of a character study into Doctor Strange than, you know, we think it always will be. But I think it comes down to he is stripped of the power he gained. 

Taylor: Yeah. 

Katie: He wanted to be the best scholar. He wanted to be the best at what he did in the mystic arts. Once he came to terms with that and came to terms with knowing how he could be the best, just like he had been the best surgeon. He wanted to strive for that position. Honestly, I don’t blame him for kind of being a little PO’d for losing the position because he was dusted and not being able to get it back when he came back. Like, that’s a little like, I get it. I understand why, but I could understand being pretty annoyed because it’s not like I’m dead, I came back. So I feel like I still deserve my position back. That being said, I almost wonder if that’s what brings back out that recklessness in him and that I don’t want to say I’m on top of the world, but remember, he no longer is Sorcerer Supreme. He doesn’t have to answer to all this bigger power and he is not being held responsible for everybody around him. He is only responsible for himself. And inherently that’s who he always was and what he liked most. Being responsible for just him and caring about just him. So I wonder if maybe that shift is why we see a different version of him beyond just different writing, different directing, and everything else. I will say by MoM, I think I’m, I think it’s hard and I said this already, you cannot watch these two films back to back. And I think that is maybe one of the cruxes of being a character that comes in later than the building stages. Because I look at Captain America, who had an entire trilogy prior to Infinity War. Same with Iron Man. Well, technically, same with Thor. And they were all able to go through everything they needed to go through while still being in the Avengers, while still being in Age of Ultron. But they weren’t these big pivotal moments in the universe versus you have Doctor Strange who comes onto the board in 2016. It is now at least 2025 in the MCU, and he was gone for five years on top of that. I mean, that’s almost ten years between two of his movies. His franchise isn’t, I mean, obviously, we know Cap is like 70 years but that’s its own wonky-

Taylor: Yeah, that’s a whole different thing. 

Katie: Yeah. Yeah. It’s just I think that is the biggest thing for some of these characters is they become you know, victim to these bigger team ups sometimes and their characters- I think Peter Parker is another one. I’m not going to lie. I think he falls into that too. 

Taylor: I agree. And I think what’s interesting is MoM is actually more of a sequel to No Way Home than it is a sequel to Strange’s own film and his own first film, which I think is a disservice to the character, but also really speaks to what you were saying. But I think the other thing that’s really important to note here is just how many lines Strange crosses in terms of we always talk about the different sectors of the MCU, the street level, the Multiverse, the mystical, the space, all of it. And I think Strange pretty much covers all of them, essentially. I mean, he’s got the Time Stone, which is kind of related to space also just at the crux of the Infinity Saga. So he already is incredibly important just by the thing he wears around his neck. The mystical he introduced it. He is the Sorcerer Supreme, who I believe Agatha is said in Wandavision is the only person who could really go toe to toe with the Scarlet Witch, which he couldn’t. But like, I think she says something about the Sorcerer Supreme. 

Katie: She says that the Scarlet Witch is more powerful, even more powerful than the Sorcerer Supreme.

Taylor: Which we saw happen and play out anyway. But still, the comparison is there that he would be the only person that she could really be compared to because he’s the most powerful wizard. Obviously doesn’t have to be a man. But the two most recent Sorcerer Supremes have been men in Wong and Strange, so very important to the mystical realm. Obviously, we’re going to get into this and have a whole section, but this film must have said the word Multiverse at least 15 times, which I did not remember at all. 

Katie: Dude me neither.

Taylor: They said it the first time and I was like, um, and then they said it like 15 more times. And I was like, stop saying that word because I don’t think you fully understand exactly what that means yet. And that’s all I’m going to say about that until we get to that section. And then the last thing is street and that’s the only thing he really doesn’t get into is street level.

Katie: He does a little bit with Peter Parker. I feel like No Way Home-

Taylor: I’m talking in this film though. 

Katie: Oh okay, okay, okay. Yep, yep, yep, yep, yep. 

Taylor: Because my point is one of the reasons I think Strange has so much dissonance and so much space between one and two other than the function of the time jump and all of that is because he cuts in as such an important character that there’s no way they can leave him out of any of the most important team ups, you know? So because of the many places he crosses, he’s so important that there are films that he simply cannot not be a part of. And unfortunately, I think that’s just going to be the nature of the character for as long as he’s around because he’s a Sorcerer Supreme. Well, not right now, but you know, he was the Sorcerer Supreme. It was his job to keep track of people like Loki, to go up against people like Wanda even though he wasn’t the Sorcerer Supreme, he basically acted like he was so we’re going to say that. And you know, that sheer fact alone and the Time stone around his neck made him impossible to ignore when you hit films like Infinity War, even Endgame, though, you know. But that’s all a function of Strange’s decision in Infinity War. There’s no Endgame without Strange. I’m right. 

Katie: No, it’s not that. I just had a really random thought, but like, he had the Time Stone and Infinity War. Couldn’t he have just gone, like, backward? Stopped Thanos at the source? 

Taylor: You mean like Thanos did with Wanda? 

Katie: Yeah.

Taylor: But I guess if he had seen, if he had seen there was only one way to win, he would have known that doing that wasn’t the one way to win. Remember, he saw the 15 million possibilities?

Katie: I guess I just like, I don’t see how like, they couldn’t know because then they could have tried, they could have just kept redoing it and destroyed the stones or tried to destroy them or you know what I mean?

Taylor: I guess. But you know, it’s always going to come back to that. That was kind of their catch. All is like, yes, you can imagine a million ways that that could have gone easier. But that line that I saw, 15 million potential futures and only one where we win pretty much is the trump card for all of it, and basically means that there’s no room to argue. But save it for the episode, save it for the Infinity War episode or episodes, honestly. But to finish my thesis, Strange is too important a character to not be involved in multiple franchises beyond his own. And so we’re going to see him dabble around in the future again, and much of it is to the detriment of his character but so here we are. 

Katie: Yeah and it all makes sense. It does just make me sad because I already know and obviously with the strikes going on right now, this is a grain of salt in itself, like you don’t even need to take it as one. It’s just a grain of salt. But there was already talk about the third movie, his third film coming around, and everything else. And it’s just like, yeah, but I think I was seeing some thoughts on when it would come out and it wasn’t even until like 2027, 2028. And I’m like, do you know how much has to happen? Between that and Multiverse of Madness, like it’s like- 

Taylor: Well, one, I don’t know how that’s possible considering the incursion is the catalyst for Secret Wars. 

Katie: I don’t know. I don’t know. 

Taylor: He is such an important, I mean, obviously, he’d be in Secret Wars without his third film coming out. But the incursion that’s mentioned is literally what causes Secret Wars. I would know. I read the comic this time, so I have actual comic proof. 

Katie: Yeah, I couldn’t tell you, but it does make me sad. I see your point though, and it is true. I mean, he is an important character. He is, if anything, more important than even like a Tony Stark just because of his abilities. Not because of just who he is because I think he is a natural leader and he’s good at that. And I think for the most part, you know, he’s a leader who can make a really hard decision when he has to even we see it from the get-go in this film when he’s not even an actual leader yet, but he has the Eye of Agamotto a.k.a the Time stone inside of it and he chooses to use it to undo the damage that Kaecilius and his whole ragtag group already do with the Hong Kong Sanctum and bring the Dark Dimension in, starts eating the earth, blah, blah, blah, blah blah. You know, he makes that hard decision and we see that, you know, obviously be something Mordo struggles with because he’s like, you broke the laws of nature to go back in time to fix this and I want it, so I think here we branch into that ability to go into a couple different of our other thoughts. So I want to hold off on the Multiverse and time conversation still because that’s going to hurt me and I’d like to wait to get that headache until a little bit later in the episode. The biggest string that’s always left standing is Mordo. We went over this and I remember we went over this in Multiverse of Madness, how angry we were because obviously we only see in the Mordo of 838. We never actually see our Mordo again in Multiverse of Madness. And granted, with all that going on, I think I prefer it that way. Not to mention there were ideas of having Wanda behead him at the beginning of the movie.

Taylor: Which is just cheap. 

Katie: Oh my God. Can you imagine that’s how they would have taken off that pawn, instead of actually doing a proper second movie in which he could be the bad guy stealing everybody’s magic away from them and everything else, he would be a really interesting villain because again, you could see how he could be slightly sympathetic because he doesn’t think these people should just have magic out there. He thinks it needs to be controlled and it would have been so great. And instead, they almost were just like, oh yeah, there’s that character and we totally teased that in an end credit scene so we should just have Wanda behead him, and then we never have to worry about him again. Are you kidding me? I mean, now we have a dangling thread from the first movie that we’ll probably never see again at this point.

Taylor: Strange is so far beyond dealing with 616’s Mordo, you know, with the things that he has dealt with. And it’s disappointing because I would not have minded another movie where Strange just deals with the magic realm. And yes, he’s dealing with that with Wanda. But like the direct effects of his first film and, you know, he basically creates this version of Mordo between him and the Ancient One. They completely shatter his viewpoint on the world and create this monster that is out there stealing magic. What an interesting and beautiful movie that could have been. Again, I know there is something and I don’t know why they took away Derrickson. But Derrickson would have made that, you know, like he would have brought that forward. That was his own threat that he was setting up for, I would assume, himself. And then obviously we know that Raimi just didn’t do anything with it, and now it’s never going to be talked about again because he’s heading into an incursion and Secret Wars, and that is way bigger in scale than Mordo out here stealing some magic. I mean, there’s just no room for it. And it’s a missed opportunity and I get it, but it’s annoying. 

Katie: Not only is there no room for it anymore, but I think what annoys me the most is it was a great, it would have been a great segway into everything we saw later because I do have to say the biggest thing I struggle with is Strange shows up at Kamar-Taj, starts training. Yes, he takes it very seriously. Yes, he is able to remember everything because of his memory and all that. Yes, he is very good at what he’s taken up. But when you really look at the timeline, how did this man who showed up in Kamar-Taj maybe two months ago, end up where he ended up? I get it, they even said it in the movie. He was meant for this. It comes so naturally to him like he was made to do this. But just I think having another movie in the middle to handle Mordo, to allow him to practice magic more and understand it, and not that Strange isn’t the good guy but still be the good guy and kind of show us how he maybe earned a spot as Sorcerer Supreme because I would think that would be a pretty good way of doing it. It’s just a shame because it is such a missed opportunity and it is going to be a thread that I think we may never see truly, ever again. Because as you said, there is no place for it. And even in his second movie, it was magical, but it was mainly multiversal. 

Taylor: That segways perfectly into the thought that I had while you were talking, which is I want more Kamar-Taj. I want more artifacts like the names that they were saying; the staff of the Living Tribunal? Are you kidding me? The things that they were talking about were so important and such deep cuts, but so interesting. And I want to explore that organization. I want to explore their rules. How someone becomes the Sorcerer Supreme. Who is overseeing them? Because it seems to me like the Ancient One was, I don’t want to say she was answering to someone, but she clearly had a code. Where did that come from? Like, is it just passed down? Unclear. There’s so much within that sorcerer culture that I think is so untapped because the second movie was going so far beyond mystical to your point, into multiversal straight away. And yes, this first movie we’ll get into it, talks about the Multiverse so much, they’re very intertwined. But it also was grounded in the mystic, that’s a weird sentence to say, but it was grounded in the mystical arts. It was grounded in Kamar-Taj. 

Katie: That feels unnatural. 

Taylor: I know, I was like, since when has the mystical ever been the grounded element? But I guess in this film it sort of is. But that gave it a sense of belonging almost. And, you know, obviously, we see Kamar-Taj take some serious hits in the second one. It’s there, it’s present, but it’s just not as important because they’re spending so much time in other universes. And I actually would love to spend more time getting to know their mythos and their view. I think we’ve seen the legend of creation, I guess, of like the Infinity Stones told in a few different ways, right? You’ve had it told by the Asgardians and their perspective. I think Ego talks about it from his perspective in Guardians. Now you have the sorcerer’s take on kind of, they don’t really talk about the Infinity stones and their creation. Obviously, Wong says the term Infinity stone, but they talk about, you know, larger areas and like things out there that Earth needs to be protected from and all of those things, they kind of all go together. And I want to hear more about how they understand the world because they have a much wider view than most of what we see. And then you go back in time and you talk to the Ancient One and she’s talking to you about Multiverses and how all of that works and is our first genuine explanation about the Multiverse and it comes from the mystical realm and the people of Kamar Taj. And why are we not spending more time with them and letting them tell us and dictate how this works because they know probably better than anybody else besides the TVA.

Katie: Yeah, and I think I want to take everything you just said and move it right into what we need to really talk about. And it is the Multiverse because I think if you’re just listening and you’re kind of hearing one end of the conversation now, I feel like you’re hearing the other end. You might be thinking, MoM is all about the Multiverse. Well, you’re saying we’re talking about the Multiverse in this movie. Why is that weird? And I think the problem is, is exactly what Taylor just highlighted. We needed this group to give us the rules of the Multiverse. We needed more than what we got in this film. We got a lot more than I expected because I don’t remember ever hearing all of this. I knew about the different dimensions, but I mean, we had a whole episode where we were like, are dimensions multiverses? 

Taylor: I still don’t know the answer.

Katie: I think they aren’t. 

Taylor: Well, no, but we decided, didn’t we decide in another based on another property, I don’t remember which one it was. It may have been Ms. Marvel. Did we decide they were the same? 

Katie: I don’t know anymore. 

Taylor: That’s my thing. Nobody is policing the rules. Forget Kamar-Taj. I’m talking to people at Marvel Studios. Nobody is sitting there with a rule book, which they should be because I am a rule follower.

Katie: Hold on though. I hear you. But one line that gets me is the Dark Dimension sits out of time. 

Taylor: Oh, I immediately went to Loki and Alioth and ​​all of that and the place beyond time where they first meet He Who Remains. 

Katie: So theoretically there can’t be Multiverses, right? If you’re sitting out of time?

Taylor: She pushes him through a Multiverse and says that. Which is what I don’t get.

Katie: Wait what?

Taylor: When she says when she pushes him through that first time in that room when they first meet before they kick him out of Kamar-Taj. 

Katie: Okay, we’re talking, I thought you were talking about Loki. That’s why I was like, what are you talking about? 

Taylor: No, no, no, no, no. I’m sorry. Back to back to Doctor Strange. When she pushes him through, she says, you see infinite universes. And my understanding was he was flying through infinite universes. But at the same time, you see the Dark Dimension. But yet they’re talking about dimensions and universes as if they’re different things within the same movie. 

Katie: I think they’re different.

Taylor: I don’t know, because she’s talking about universes, an infinite number of universes as he’s passing the Dark Dimension. Should that not be a different thing if she’s not talking about universes? Then the biggest question I had is there should not be a Multiverse in 2016. 

Katie: Oh my God, I didn’t even think about that. 

Taylor: That was my first thought was, how does this make sense? It was not open until Loki and Sylvie play their little games, and they didn’t play their games until after Endgame when he took the Tesseract.

Katie: No, you’re wrong. What version of Loki is TVA Loki?

Taylor: From Endgame.

Katie: No. 

Taylor: Yes. 

Katie: No. 

Taylor: Yes. 

Katie: Taylor, 2012 Loki takes the Tesseract in Endgame. That is the Loki in the Loki series. 

Taylor: Right. But I meant yes, I misinterpreted your question. I meant he’s the Loki from Endgame.

Katie: But we don’t know, remember this goes back to that golden question of we don’t actually know where the Loki series plays.

Taylor: Oh, I forgot that they, yeah, because they went back in time. I was thinking at the moment that Endgame happens, but still, but still. My question is valid. 

Katie: Well, I’m not saying it’s not, but I’m just saying that could be a write-off. That in my opinion, could be how they explain that. They’re just like, well, Loki, the series Loki, sits out of time. That’s 2012 Loki. We technically have no explanation because we don’t know if he’s been there for 17 years or for 17 days, and he could have opened the Multiverse and that could have been affecting everything. 

Taylor: And I thought about that. I thought about how Loki exists outside of time. However, let’s be real here, people. This was filmed in 2014/2015. There is no way, no way they knew what was happening. They just thought they’d toss a little Multiverse spice in there and they’d fix it all later with some Band-Aids. 

Katie: I don’t know if I agree with that. 

Taylor: Think about the way that they’ve handled the Multiverse since it’s been open. The 17 different rules. 

Katie: Okay, listen, I don’t agree with how Phase four nor five has so far handled it, but I actually think 2016 had an idea. I think they were not yet figuring out the bigger implications because they didn’t have to. So they actually put together something that I think could have made sense. Think about it. We think I mean, okay, I shouldn’t say we, there’s a group of people on Earth I know who always sits there. I mean, I’m not going to lie, I’m somebody who thinks that way. I do believe that there are infinite universes out there. I think there is another version of me doing something completely different right now. I think there are hundreds of versions of me doing something completely different right now. And in another universe, I know I made a different choice at one point, and I’m not where I am now. And, I do believe in that. That is to say, we obviously are not sitting here running into other universes and, you know, colliding, having incursions, having people show up, whatever. I almost wonder if that is the thought process in 2016. They do know that there is the ability to have the Multiverse. The Multiverse can exist and or maybe already does, but it is not opened in the sense of the tendrils are out and about, hitting and creating other I don’t know. But all this did, this is where I said the headache was coming in because I was like, how do you explain this movie now? And how do you explain now from this movie? 

Taylor: Yeah, well, that’s what I’m trying to get to, one with that question about how is it even open. Because, you know, take away the Loki thing, I think no matter what way you slice it with that little cop-out out of mind, the Multiverse should not have been open according to what we learned in Loki. What we learned in Loki from He Who Remains is that the TVA, his job was to slice off anything that could become a Multiverse, so we would have one sacred circle. According to that logic, there were no other universes existing because they were being pruned. Therefore, the only way that the mystical community could have known about a Multiverse with maybe not understanding that it was gone is if they existed in the time when it had previously existed during the War of Kangs. In which case they may not have understood that by Kang doing whatever he did like killing himself, I don’t remember the story anymore, like killing other versions of himself so that only He Who Remains remained. They did not understand that he was pruning, so there was no Multiverse. Now, where that theory falls apart, is she sent him through a bunch of universes. So I think to what you were saying earlier is this movie and it kind of, it does not disregard what I said, I think we’re saying the same thing differently. What I’m saying is, in this movie, they wanted to talk about the Multiverse. That’s fine. The rest of Marvel was not there yet. They did not know where they were going to go, and so they had to kind of bandaid over it because they were like, oh, we talked about it in this film. But if we had let this movie set the tone, we would have been fine. If we had let this movie set the rules, we would have been fine. But then we let someone else go and say, let me go write Loki in a way that does not at all jive with the two other examples we have of the Multiverse, which is of course this movie and Endgame. 

Katie: So I’m hearing it’s all Loki’s fault.

Taylor: I agree, not the character. We still love the character.

Katie: No the show, the show. 

Taylor: Yes. That show, it really does start what I think is a major discrepancy in the MCU. It starts this sense of we do not need to follow the rules that were set by previous films. Then you go into MoM, let’s keep this in the Strange house, you go into MoM and it directly contradicts Loki, written by the same guy, by the way. And then you go into Ant-Man, which sort of kind of goes together and sort of doesn’t. And basically, everybody’s just making up their own rules every time we talk about the Multiverse. Whereas I think based on memory, this film and Endgame actually pretty well go together. They set a foundation that future writers and directors decided to just absolutely take a poop on and say, I don’t really feel like that makes sense for the story I’m writing so let me write a new set of rules. And we’ve had now 2 to 3 different sets of rules in phases 4 to 5. 

Katie: Okay, I’m going to take a second. 

Taylor: I told you this is going to get heated. 

Katie: I know, I know. So I want to take a second to backtrack. An explanation I think I might have is remember when we just talked about dimensions?

Taylor: Yeah, unfortunately.

Katie: My only thought process is, I also vaguely remember when I was explaining my thought process with the Sacred Circle. Remember how I was like, the Sacred circle is a ring.

Taylor: Hence a circle. 

Katie: Well, yeah, but maybe it has, shut up. Maybe it has other rings that are in parallel with it. And it wasn’t until we opened the Multiverse that connected and that’s what, hold on. I’m eating my own words. When Loki and Sylvie killed He Who Remains, that’s what opened the ability for them to connect. Like the Multiverse itself, remember, this was something I mentioned. Like the Multiverse itself could have already existed as a whole, but none of them ever touched each other because he made sure they didn’t and that’s what kept everything in line. And then now, once they killed him, nobody’s pruning anything, which is what’s going to allow things to get out of hand. If I were to bring that back, that could explain what they’re saying in 2016, in the first Doctor Strange movie. And that could also then say, okay, well then dimensions can easily be universes that we could have been seeing an incursion pretty much take place with Dormammu eating earth.

Taylor: Yeah, no, no, no. I’m following. All right, let me make sure I’m tracking, and also for listeners to make sure you’re all tracking. This is what I’m getting. You’re saying that, well, I actually have a slightly different interpretation, but it goes in line with most of what you’re saying. So you’re saying that it’s multiple circles stacked on one another and the lines that we see coming off the Sacred Circle line or at that time they’re calling it the Sacred timeline line in Loki are actually little connector wiggles between the circles, right. What if, here I’m going to raise that for you, what if instead of the circles already existing, no this kind of does conflict with Strange, but I think this makes more sense in relation to Loki. If the timeline, the Sacred Circle has the little wiggles come off and the wiggles or the branches, that’s a better word for it, the branches. 

Katie: All I’m thinking of is fruit salad, yummy, yummy.

Taylor: Childhood moment unlocked. But the branches, right? What if the branches then form their own Sacred Circle? The only thing where that doesn’t go is of course, then the Multiverse would not have existed until that moment in Loki. So it’s tough because I hear what you’re saying and that does make it work.

Katie: Yeah.

Taylor: But it just really does not to me speak to what He Who Remains says and even I feel like the imagery that we got from Kang the Conqueror in Ant-Man was one circle. And so I just feel like it’s so, that’s what I mean, I think they allowed them to start-

Katie: I mean, I’m not saying I’m right, I’m just saying that’s the only way I think it makes sense. And like I said, that’s what I think prior to even the MCU. I think a lot of people always theorize that there are other universes out there. I think that’s the idea behind them. So I’m taking that thought process and I’m like okay saying they all exist, we don’t touch. You know, He Who Remains dying is what starts allowing those to happen, and maybe that’s what starts to cause, it could cause more universes, too. But there are already some out there. I don’t know. I think it’s so hard with this movie because, I mean, this is the whole problem with the Replays, right? And that problem in a bad way but just when we watch these all with the new point of view that we have, which is what’s almost fun about it like that I think the big point is. It’s one thing for us to react to things as it comes out and then you get maybe a comment here or there from us six months later and we’re like, actually, that wasn’t as bad. We just needed to think about it and now we feel differently. Like, that’s how I feel about MoM, it was bad. 

Taylor: Oh, it really was.

Katie: It was horrible in so many ways but now I can watch it and I’d be like, but Wanda looks awesome and she’s doing so many amazing things.

Taylor: Killing people?

Katie: She is a grieving mother trying to get her children, okay, so she can do no wrong. But my point is, is like I can watch that and I’m like, if I could separate myself from some of the other things, I now can say I enjoy at least watching the movie. I can watch it, I can put it on and I’m like, okay, cool. As long as I don’t think too much about this movie we’re good. When we do these Replays, it’s fun to be able to say, hey, especially the ones who have sequels now, to sit there like we did with Black Panther and say how- and obviously, that was so different. But how you know, the second one reflects the first, how the first reflects the second, how things in between played a part, whatever. But I will say this is the other big struggle, right? Because like now, especially with the Multiverse, if you would have left me in 2016 with Doctor Strange, I would’ve been like, cool, all makes sense to me. 

Taylor: Yeah, there’s a Multiverse. The one thing though, that I continued to struggle with throughout this film and again, like I wouldn’t have thought of this in 2016, but now we have someone named America Chavez. They were traveling through the Multiverse with just their sling rings. 

Katie: I don’t think about it. 

Taylor: I mean, why do you need America then? I just kept thinking like, she just sent him through the Multiverse with just a touch. I get that she’s the Ancient One and she has a lot of power. 

Katie: But remember, though, she was also drawing from the Dark Dimension, and I wonder if that was something that played a part.

Taylor: I mean, I’m sure it’s possible. It really stuck out to me. I don’t know. It bothered me. I was like, are you telling me that this whole time he could have been sling-ringing his way around the Multiverse like what?

Katie: I do struggle with this, I don’t know. The problem is, I mean, again, this goes back to what I just said. In retrospect, it makes this film hard because I think as we started the whole episode with this is such a good movie.

Taylor: It really is.

Katie: The character development, I mean, it’s beautifully shot. There were some shots that I couldn’t believe I was even watching, like the hospital one. Oh, no, I’m thinking like when the Ancient Ones, like dying and they like everything is slo-mo and even the lightning coming down from the sky and the snow and everything else. Amazing. 

Taylor: Even just the gravitas of that last scene where he’s coming up the stairs of the New York sanctum and you just see that shot of him behind and you’re like, that’s freaking Doctor Strange.

Katie: Or like the cape one when he puts the cape on. 

Taylor: Yes. I was like, you know what? Like I said at the beginning Doctor Strange is a very interesting character. He can go a lot of different ways and it can be a little challenging to introduce a character like him. But it’s shots like those where I was like, this man got the character and I agree. Beautifully shot. Beautiful.

Katie: Yeah and so the movie itself is so, so, so good. I mean, the Mirror Dimension hurt me, but like, it’s so amazing at the same time. But I will say, looking back at it through this lens, it’s hard because we’re pulling apart something with a new perspective. And I think obviously this is the MCU, it’s very different and we can do that. I think a lot of people sometimes it’s not always fair to take a current point of view to something in the past. I do think sometimes that’s not fair. But in the MCU, we kind of have to. We have to understand what those connecting lines are, especially as Doctor Strange continues to be such an important character moving forward, especially because the second movie is called The Multiverse of Madness. And so it’s just it’s hard because with a 2023 point of view, which is a 2024 to 2028 MCU point of view because we have no clue, it doesn’t all make sense in this movie. 

Taylor: Oh, I totally agree and that’s really the only thing that took me out of it was, okay, how does this work with everything that we know now?

Katie: Well, and I even have written in my notes because there wasn’t a lot I was writing down about the movie itself because there wasn’t a lot that needed to be captured more than, this is awesome. This looks great. I miss this. I really enjoyed this movie, I’m sad that there was a version of me that didn’t like this at first, it’s really good. Honestly, a lot of my notes had to do with the Multiverse and everything else. We haven’t even talked about the Time Stone. And my thing is like something I had written earlier, what were the consequences? As we learned with Loki and the TVA, was that something Strange was supposed to do in the timeline because there were no consequences to that. And so I guess I was really confused because I was like, how does that, he’s just out here changing like Wong was dead!

Taylor: Okay, you just hit two of my notes that are back to back on my sheet. One being Wong was dead in all caps and thinking about that now, the current Sorcerer Supreme was dead. 

Katie: He should technically not be alive currently.

Taylor: Well, at one point or another, both of the men, our most recent Sorcerer Supremes, have been dead. 

Katie: Yeah, but like I will just say, one Wong was like, dead, dead. Strange was dusted. There was a slight difference. 

Taylor: I know. I just want to point out that, you know, there is like a parallel there. But to your point, I wrote that I never, it didn’t occur to me until we were getting up to that point. And then I was like, oh my God, they reveal that Wong is dead. And then you think about now how he’s in every dang movie and you’re like, this guy almost didn’t make it out of the first movie he was even introduced in. And then you think about all of the things he’s been a part of and how he ushered someone like Shang-Chi into the fold. And you think about how that may not have happened if Strange hadn’t quote unquote, broken the laws. And then going off of that, my next bullet point, which goes back to something you said was, what was the reckoning that Mordo spoke of?

Katie: Exactly.

Taylor: He spoke so convincingly that there was going to be a price to pay. And it almost made me wonder, is this when Strange started the incursion? That it actually started beyond or far before we ever thought. We thought it was when he brought all the Peters and he did some real poo poo with Spider-Man.

Katie: No, I thought the incursion happened during MoM.

Taylor: You might be right. I just, get them so confused. Sometimes I forget they’re different movies. 

Katie: Well, either way, the only rebuttal I’m going to give there is if we say that, then we have to come from the Multiverse was open and active. If this is when he started an incursion, the only way to have done that would be to run into another Multiverse.

Taylor: I understand what you’re saying.

Katie: Which goes against what you just said because you didn’t want to say that. 

Taylor: I know but then at the same time, like I can’t get the fact that the Ancient One keeps saying the Multiverse out of my head, like she obviously knows more about it than I do. 

Katie: So here’s my problem. So here’s not my problem, I guess my thing. Yes, Mordo sat there and said there are consequences to this. And again, this movie, similar to some of the others around this time, fell into a hole because Infinity War and Endgame had to happen. If they didn’t happen, would we have gotten an answer to that? Beyond that, now that we know there are people who police time, I’m unsure why they were like, oh, he’s supposed to do that. I don’t see that. I’m sorry. It was one thing for the Avengers to go back and grab a couple of Infinity stones especially because we know how the TVA uses them as paperweights and bring the half of the universe back. Okay. They brought the entire half of the universe back. Not saying that Earth’s not worth it or anything, but like Strange literally undid death’s like he and not like the dusting type literal should have all been dead kind of deaths. And so I just, I feel like there should be something there that should have happened that didn’t happen. 

Taylor: I mean, the only explanation, I hate to say it, is if the TVA was not in existence at that point. Look, I feel like I want it to be one way, but I’m not going to not acknowledge the evidence to the contrary, because that’s just stupid. But what I think this comes back down to is Loki really started a whole vat of poop and the TVA is a problematic organization just in understanding time because there are so many moments in which they should have stepped in, in movies that came out before Loki ever came out. I’m looking at you, Steven Rogers. But they didn’t because at that time we had not yet been introduced and we have to do all of this bending and mental gymnastics to justify why they did not step in. Now, the only thing we can say for Steve and I just thought of this is maybe they did step into him on the other side. We don’t know. But that’s a whole conversation for another day. We’ll get to Endgame and we’ll table that for now. I just, everyone remember that because I was actually the smartest thing I’ve said today. But I do want to point out one other thing, and it’s directly related not to this movie, but to a character from this movie, which is, if I’m remembering correctly, the Ancient One, when she explains to Smart Hulk the concept of time travel in the Multiverse, she tells him, bring it back or you will start a branch. Well, honey, if the Multiverse already exists, why do they need to worry about starting a branch?

Katie: Okay, I’m ignoring that statement because I feel like that’s going to be an Endgame problem and I’m going to take it and say, if that’s the thought process, how can we apply it to what Strange did in this movie? 

Taylor: I guess technically he did not time travel. 

Katie: He just went back in time.

Taylor: Yeah, it’s almost like instead of starting a new branch, he just simply went back on the Sacred circle?

Katie: Okay, but actually, I have to throw this out there now, too. They can sit outside of it too. 

Taylor: Don’t, don’t, don’t.

Katie: Which didn’t make sense. I was like, so Strange is not affected by his own spell in this case, which also didn’t make sense because when he goes up against Dormammu, he has it so that he has to be affected by the spell. So he doesn’t, so he goes back. Hold on, let me just. 

Taylor: Okay, really quick, really quick to that. I think there are multiple spells you can do with the Time stone. 

Katie: Yeah, right. I was getting there, but then regardless, he can pull other people out of the spell, which we saw him do with Mordo.

Taylor: And Wong. 

Katie: Well, yeah, but Wong had to come back first so like, that was its own thing before he did that. And then we see Kaecilius and his followers be able to break through the spell because of the Dark Dimension powers they’re drawing from and they’re outside. So now they’re all sitting outside of the spell, which I don’t understand because how is that not creating branches by the fact that you’re putting everything back to where it was, say, 10 minutes ago? But now you have people who should have been, say, ten miles down the road, not there yet, still here, because they’re sitting outside of the time spell. 

Taylor: I honestly have nothing for you. My brain shut down in the middle of that because I just immediately recognized a problem I couldn’t solve and we turned off. 

Katie: No, I mean, that’s what I mean. That’s what I’m consistently confused about, is I don’t see how any of that works especially with the rules that we’ve been introduced to. 

Taylor: I think it’s tough because though Loki is a magical being and truly one of our first magical beings we were ever introduced to in the MCU, his show is not about magic. His show almost borderline is more about science and the Multiverse.

Katie: I hate science.

Taylor: The way that intersects. I’m not a fan either. I mean, I am in the sense that, like we both believe in science. I want to put that out there. 

Katie: But I don’t like thinking too much about science most of the time. 

Taylor: Yeah.

Katie: Unless it’s dinosaurs.

Taylor: I know you’re really into dinosaurs, but let me clarify by saying we leave the science to the pros. We are not the pros. This is a very advanced form of physics.

Katie: Dude, I never even took physics. 

Taylor: Okay I did and I actually did really well, but I don’t want to talk about that. It was a dark time in my life. So circling back to my actual point, Loki is more about Multiverse, time travel, and science than it is about magic. So I think what we’re coming up against between comparing Loki and this movie is the interpretation of the multiverse and the interpretation of time travel between two very different disciplines, right? And so I think in some ways there’s almost no answer to it because they’re approaching the problem with very different lenses. 

Katie: Okay. I feel like I fried my brain trying to understand like I literally feel the headache starting at the start of at the front of my head because I’m like desperately trying to understand any of this. And it’s like I said, it is a shame because if we didn’t have to think about everything that we know now, I wouldn’t even second guess half of this in 2016 Doctor Strange.

Taylor:  It is a shame because if they had just let this be the foundation and had been consistent throughout, this would never be a conversation. 

Katie: I also, I can’t say that. I was going to say it also would have made a lot more sense. But I can’t say that because while I understood the Multiverse and then they brought in time and they did them both on top of each other, which we know I hate, and that would have hurt my brain anyway, trying to understand that whole thing again. But I do think this was the type of movie that should have been allowed to run with it, not something like Loki, and maybe this is because I have no desire for the show Loki and we will have a great six weeks together guys. 

Taylor: I was going to say our new coverage is going to be real interesting.

Katie: Oh, definitely. But I just think it makes me angry because I think that show in itself just set up so many weird things. On top of it doesn’t really fit in the MCU. So it’s weird because we’re following these rules from a show that like doesn’t really exist right.

Taylor: But that’s the thing. We’re not actually following the rules, enter MoM.

Katie: Does MoM follow the rules of this movie? 

Taylor: I don’t even remember. Also, does Quantumania follow Loki? I don’t remember that either.

Katie: Oh that one’s blocked out of my brain. Theoretically, though, if MoM follows the rules of this movie, I won’t be as angry. 

Taylor: Well, how did MoM conflict with Loki? 

Katie: It’s been so long since I’ve watched Loki.

Taylor: I know.

Katie: I have to do my rewatch before season two. Well, Loki’s main thing was okay, so we had the Multiverse open at the end. And I mean, they were pruning the Multiverse up until then. But yeah, and then we have America Chavez, who would have been alive this whole time, who could travel through the Multiverse.

Taylor: Right, where would she have been traveling to? 

Katie: Well, right so that is already the first thing. But actually, before I even think about this further, I want to bring in a thought process and we know Agents of SHIELD isn’t canon, and I don’t want to get too far into that in itself.

Taylor: Well, we don’t actually know it, but we think.

Katie: I’m sorry, I should say we know as of right now it’s not canon. 

Taylor: Catch us on an upcoming episode, we’ll talk about it. 

Katie: Yeah, but my thought process is in season six, you have a version of Coulson who is talking about how he travels to two different worlds and universes and he is saying, I just watched this episode today, which is why it’s so fresh in my mind. He said, well, I’ve been to universes and planets where or I think it was planets, but we can maybe apply it to universes, which is why I’m bringing it up, where it moves at the speed of light. So he’s like a hundred years old, but he doesn’t look it and he says, I’ll live for another 100 years and you’ll be dead. But because I’ll be traveling to these different planets that have different timing, I will not age. And I’m like, I wonder if there’s an aspect of the Multiverse that that can apply to as well.

Taylor: Where not every universe has time that moves at the same rate. I see what you’re saying. Well, yeah, because even if you think and this is something we brought up in a previous episode, 838 is so much more advanced and so you can chalk that up to maybe some different circumstances, helping them advance more quickly. You know, we obviously don’t know the full backstory of 838 and everything that’s happened there. However, taking an assumption to move this thought process forward, if 838 did not have some drastic change, I mean, we know it had to have some because the Illuminati is there. But what if it’s just 50 years down the road? That 838 is almost the future of what our Earth 616 will look like. It’s just that either A: they traveled, well, then you have the whole idea of traveling to a different point. You don’t necessarily travel parallel.

Katie: Which I think we talked about a little bit in the Kamala episode. 

Taylor: Yeah like you’re not like I guess the other part of that is you may not travel to year 2005 in 616, you may not go to just 2005 in 838, you may go to 2050 in 838. So there are two things happening here. You could almost have time move differently in different universes and so they’re advancing at different speeds. And also as you’re traveling, you may be traveling 50 years in the future, 100 years in the past. And like you don’t know.

Katie: Right, which is where I think when you ask about the Loki and the Multiverse of Madness and how those two different thought processes could tie or not tie back into 2016 Doctor Strange, I think that’s where that gray area begins because I think Loki focuses most on the time aspect as of right now. I think season two is going to bring a very different thought process with that or I think it’s still going to be mainly time but now because of the Multiverse, it’s going to be really it’s going to be even more wonky, which God help me. But I think then you have what we know from Multiverse of Madness, which is what we’ve seen when they travel through the different universes. So I don’t know if there can be an answer, but I do think that gray area is where we are living. 

Taylor: I agree. I also am going to stick to my magic versus science as part of that gray area helping to color in there. And I think the last thing I’ll say on this point is I’m actually glad that we’re watching this now, knowing that I’ll probably try my very best to rewatch Loki Season One to rewatch MoM. So like going into season two, going into our predictions, we not only have MoM and season one, but we now have this very first mention of the Multiverse. We have not up until this point, said the word Multiverse. This is literally the first floor. Ground level of what we have built this next saga off of, this the first utterance of the word. And so I think it’s actually really, really good timing that we’re doing this now because we have the opportunity to use this and to reflect on how much we’ve grown or maybe strayed away from the rules and the tenets that were spoken about in this film to get to where we are and we can use that as a reflection point. So that’s kind of my last thing because I don’t think we can talk in circles anymore because we’re not going to get, I don’t think, an answer. But maybe Loki Season Two will help point us in the right direction now that we can compare it to where we started. I think that’s actually something that could be really helpful.

Katie: Well, my last point is, while obviously we knew was going to turn into a Multiverse and time experience because of this movie, as you just said, being a Multiverse and time gateway, the first time we see the time stone as well. The first time we mention the Multiverse and we see the Multiverse and other dimensions and everything else we see. Again, I want to wrap it all up by saying this is such a good movie. I want to just give it the credit it deserves because I know and we’ve said it throughout the episode, but I know saying all this with what we know now can make it seem like we’re harping on a little bit, but truly not this film’s fault. If anything, it’s everybody who came after it because this film started it all and I don’t remember it starting so much of this. So it’s actually kind of interesting to go back, as you just said, and watch it now when we have some of this new content to go through and that’s also coming up. But it is such a good film from start to finish. And I mean, if you haven’t had the chance to rewatch Doctor Strange, the first one in a while, do it because I think this is probably one of the best Marvel films coming out of the first three phases, if I’m being honest. Just because I think we got it down by 2016 a little bit more and because it was different, it got to take risks I think we didn’t get to see in some of the other movies and it’s why movies and obviously I know how they came out, but it’s why movies like Black Panther, it’s why movies like Thor: Ragnarok were so well done, because those movies came later and they were able to kind of experiment in different ways. 

Taylor: It showed that the experimental action could be successful.

Katie: Exactly. And it was as we moved into the big finale and everything. So you really could kind of do something a little different because you knew what was going to happen next. You know, they were going to wipe out half the universe. So it’s still an amazing movie whether or not everything that comes after it negates everything talks about in the Multiverse and how the Time stone is used. And I am hoping that they can continue what 2016 Doctor Strange did for the character of Doctor Strange moving forward. 

Taylor: I couldn’t have said it better myself. This has actually been a really, really fun episode for me. I think I wasn’t sure what to expect going into this rewatch, but I was pleasantly surprised. To what Katie was saying, it is such a good film and definitely worth a rewatch, especially hopefully before or now that you’ve listened to our episode. With all that being said, we have a couple of really, really fun episodes coming up that are a little different from our normal. So Katie is going to talk about that, but definitely make sure that you are following on your podcast platform of choice so you get first notifications when those come out. Also make, sure you are checking regularly on our website. We have good updates on there, transcripts, information, links to all of our socials and of course the option to help support our show. So that’s really a central hub for all things Sisters Assembled and I can’t recommend enough for you that you make sure you check that out on the regular.

Katie: Give us a follow on Twitter if you still use that platform at SisAssembledPod and Threads and Instagram at SistersAssembled. Taylor mentioned it, moving forward, we are going to be having some really fun episodes before we start Loki already next week we are going to have a special guest on the show, which is really exciting for us and are going to be diving into Agents of SHIELD a little bit. We’ve been talking about it a lot lately. It’s been on the topic and I think part of that’s because Taylor and I are watching it currently, but it is going to be an episode all about it. So make sure you guys tune in and get ready for that, even if you haven’t watched the show itself. In the meantime, you know what to do. Keep up with us and keep up with Marvel if you haven’t been keeping up because, as I said, Loki is coming soon because Marvel just blew your mind, so let’s talk about it.