Transcript

Taylor: Hello listeners, welcome to another episode of Sisters Assembled. We’re going to do a little bit of an out-of-the-box episode today. Instead of a replay, we’re going to revisit a very important and one of my favorite MCU films, but with a little bit of a different lens from how we typically look at them. We are going to take a look at Civil War but through the lens of some of our newer heroes who weren’t a part of the team or even in the universe at the time the Civil War was happening, kind of inspired by the fact that we all know Thor wasn’t there. Well, neither were these two characters, so we’re going to have them pick sides based on what we know about each of these characters. And we’re going to kind of maybe agree, maybe not agree, maybe duke it out. We don’t know because we haven’t talked about it before this episode. So it’s going to be a good one and I’m very, very excited. So without further ado, Katie, why don’t you kick us off with our first hero to debate?

Katie: All right. So our first one is kind of a fun one because we really enjoyed her during her show, and that is Ms. Marvel herself, Kamala Khan, who will be gracing our big screen again, hopefully in November. I feel like I have to add the little anecdote every time I say it just to be safe, but let’s start with her. She is one of our younger heroes and so I think and I guess I’ll start with some of my thoughts, Taylor you can go and then we can make our decisions. But I think her being so young is actually a big factor in the side I think she would choose. I actually, and not to take away her aspect of choosing, but I do think she would follow a very similar path to Peter Parker in the sense that it would depend on who brings her in. Obviously, we haven’t seen her with Iron Man. We haven’t seen her with Captain America. They are simply not here for her to ever grace the screen with again, except for one from a different universe. But I think, you know, if Cap were to have gone and recruited her, I think she’d be loyal to Cap and I think if Iron Man were to recruit her, she’d be loyal to Iron Man, just due to the fact that I think she really respects the authority figure. She also, like, is in love with them all. So I think whoever decides to bring her into an Avengers kind of kartuffle if you will, or whatever you want to call it.

Taylor: It’s actually the word kerfuffle.

Katie: I like kartuffle, so I’m going to stick with it. But anyway, I think, you know, no matter who decides to bring you into this Avengers-level thing, I think she’d just be so happy to be there that she’s just like, yeah, you’re right.

Taylor: I think that’s a really, really good point because I think she is such a fangirl and she wouldn’t want to disappoint whoever brought her in so I think that’s a really valid argument. I do want to actually pick a side though for her because I think that there’s something really, really important that was a pretty pivotal theme, I think, within her own show, which is the idea of surveillance. Obviously, we saw how the DODC came into her place of worship and all of that and how they knew that it was someone from her community because likely they have her community under a higher level of surveillance. And that being such a pivotal part of her story, I think, makes her more sensitive to things like that and in its entirety and its essence, what is the Sokovia Accords for? To surveil enhanced people. I mean, I think part of this, too, was jogged for me by watching Agents of SHIELD or rewatching Agents of SHIELD and seeing the Inhumans sign up for it. The way that Yo-Yo had to check in, the way that she had her watch on her at all times to make sure that they knew who she was because she was registered. And so I think that level of surveillance is something that would really bother Kamala because of the community that she’s in being under probably a larger amount of surveillance than, you know, other communities. And so I think that sensitivity would make her really reticent to join the Sokovia Accords or sign and basically sign on the dotted line saying, yeah, you can surveil me whenever you want, here’s a big target on my back. I just can’t see her getting behind that.

Katie: Think that’s a really good point. Actually, to me, it opens up a different door as well to her, to the other side of her character. We are introduced to her and she is in love with Captain Marvel. That is her girl. And obviously, we don’t see Captain Marvel in Civil War. She doesn’t even exist to us then technically, if you were a fan in 2016, you were watching things. We were not paying attention to Captain Marvel because her film won’t come out for two more years and so I also don’t think she would ever have been in this fight to begin with because she would have been like, this is ridiculous. But that being said, if we think about Captain Marvel’s story hers being very much about having somebody overlooking everything she’s doing pretty much and having control over her and breaking free of that, I think Kamala being such a big fangirl of her, obviously understands some of the story and the lore behind her. I mean, she’s like, I’m sure in the MCU universe itself if we were living there, she has to be some awesome story out there of this lady who is permanently in her late twenties, early thirties just as a cosmic being. It’s just crazy. I mean, she’s got to be awesome. And so I think even just knowing probably some of the lore behind her, Kamala admiring her is so much to me also translates. And I’m sure she kind of feels very similar and sees, as you were saying, how she feels about her community and the surveillance, especially the DODC, ends up putting on them. I’m sure there’s a lot of connection to her and how she relates to a hero like that. So if I had to pick a side, I’d say it’d be Cap. I also think, quite frankly, if I have to go back, I think Cap would have brought her in.

Taylor: I’m trying to think through if, I don’t immediately feel like that’s wrong. I don’t immediately feel like it’s right, because I think the one thing that I’m struggling with is I don’t think Cap was behind recruiting Peter in the sense that too young.

Katie: I think I’m trying to say if we went to war right now with all the Avengers, all of them, every single one of them pretend we’re not where we are in the MCU and Cap had to recruit and Iron Man had to recruit and there were clear party lines drawn and every single- it’s like kickball. Each team gets to pick one at a time. I feel like Cap would have brought her in more than I think Iron Man would have.

Tony: I don’t know that I agree. 

Katie: I just don’t see I don’t know. I don’t see Iron Man messing with some of the mystical. I can’t explain why, but if I look at Iron Man’s team, his is very grounded, like he doesn’t have his Wanda. The only one he has is Vision and Vision is his own weird robotic self like he was built.

Taylor: Yeah, I think that’s fair. I think where I’m struggling is there’s 2016 Tony, and then there’s like now Tony and I think for me it’s hard to think back to Tony in 2016 because if you think about him in Infinity War, who does he spend the majority of the film with? Doctor Strange right? And so I think that really opened his eyes a lot. I think they built trust between the two of them. And I think that really kind of was a bridge for Tony to embrace a lot more of that and Kamala’s powers aren’t mystical, but a lot more of that-

Katie: They’re not normal, though. 

Taylor: No, but for me, she’s more space.

Katie: Yeah. They’re not like Doctor Strange Magic, but they’re definitely-

Taylor: They’re cosmic.

Katie: They’re cosmic, but they’re so weird the way that they are that I feel so weird calling them cosmic too. I don’t know the right word really, for them.

Taylor: Yeah, I think for me, I just put her there now because of the characters that she’s interacted with thus far and will be interacting with. Like obviously she’s going to be in one of the most cosmic films that we’ve had to date in the MCU, so I’m comfortable putting her cosmic. And I think 2016, Tony, whether it’s magic or cosmic, first of all, the man hated space. He spent all of 10 minutes there and thought he was going to die. So I don’t really think Tony’s a huge fan of space.

Katie: Right and I’m going off 2016, Tony. I’m going off of like mindset of Tony in Civil War, which is probably arguably one of the worst iterations of Tony that we get to see, in my opinion.

Taylor: Yeah, no, I agree. I think that version of Tony is one my least favorite versions of Tony, and also the moment where or the movie, I think that made me really start to dislike Tony as a character. Like, I think up until then I was an Iron Man fan, like his first film, fantastic. The second film, you know, is decent. Third film, we all know how I feel about the third film, but at the time I wasn’t super critiquing the movies the way that I do now. And he was the first, you know, that first Iron Man film, I mean, we re-did it for the replay a couple of years ago. It’s fantastic. So I think everybody was really an Iron Man fan, if you were an MCU fan, they were kind of synonymous. But, you know, as I became more of a fan and can actually look at the arc of the character, I think for me, Civil War is the moment where I was like, okay, Tony, you’re not it, dude. Like your actions are, they’re not helping anyone. You’re not taking the full thing into account. You are projecting your mistakes onto everyone else. We’ve been through all of the reasons why Tony’s wrong, so I’m not going to enumerate. But I just want to say I agree. I think this is the worst version of Tony and I think if you’re going through and replaying this is the moment that if you’re going to start disliking Tony at any moment, this is the moment that it’s going to happen. And so looking at Tony in that mindset or at this time is a little difficult because it is my least favorite version of him. However, I do think you know what he’s been exposed to at this time, no magic, really, besides Wanda. And she doesn’t even really count as magic up until this point, because to your point, she’s only been thrown pew pew balls, so.

Katie: And am I wrong?

Taylor: No, you’re not, you’re not. And as it relates to space, his real only experience was in The Avengers when he really thought he was going to die taking that nuke through the wormhole. So not a positive experience.

Katie: Well, and keep this in mind. He and again, we are looking at this through the lens of a 2016 Tony. He is a science dude. Things like magic and cosmic things, I mean, how do you explain Kamala’s abilities? Whether you call them cosmic, you call them magical. If I were to try to put a scientific ring around them.

Taylor: Well Bruno did.

Katie: Well, right. But I just am saying, like, still, it’s the same with Wanda’s. It’s like, oh, well, physically this is what you’re doing but how? You know what I mean? And that got complicated because now they’re both technically Mutants, and that just took a turn. But if we’re looking at the 2016 range of where we’re at, it’s just I think that’s the thing that runs through his head, too. And I honestly think that’s why we see Bruce is always so weird. I feel like sometimes around some of this more out there powers too. I feel like their brain works so scientifically that understanding how people like Wanda can like I don’t even know, can’t even describe what she does because at this point she can bend time, reality, everything at the tip of her fingertips. I just feel like maybe that’s just something that because it’s harder for them to put their finger on it and explain it with the science they know, it’s just a little scary.

Taylor: I see that argument. I have two responses to it. One Peter Parker. He recruited Peter Parker and didn’t have a problem. That is a kid who literally walks on walls.

Katie: That’s science. 

Taylor: Yeah, but like, if he’s science, how is Kamala, not science? Because she has a Mutant gene that is activated by the bangle that she wears. Yes, her type of power is a little bit more visible than Peter’s in the sense that he climbs walls. She can literally create matter. But at its core, I don’t understand how her having a mutated gene is not science.

Katie: Because I guess this is my thought process. Think about it this way. Peter gets bit by a radioactive spider and now takes on the traits of the spider. To me, I’m like, yeah, makes sense, I get that.

Taylor: I’m not a scientist, but.

Katie: I don’t really know science that well, but I get that. That makes sense to me. I see where A equals B and we get C, cool. I get the idea with Kamala and her genes. But then it’s like how this gene allows her to essentially manipulate, it’s like light, right? I don’t know. Her power is just very difficult for me to understand.

Taylor: I think it’s energy but I’m not sure.

Katie: Yeah, it’s like light energy or something but the fact that she and I keep going back to Wanda because there are very clear similarities, in my opinion, to some of the things that they’re able to do. But she can essentially create matter with her hands, like just with her abilities. So I get down to the real nitty-gritty of it. Oh, it’s a gene. She has a mutated gene. But I guess my brain still doesn’t see how I think, I think Mystique is a great example of a Mutant that I’m thinking of. How she physically changes and my brain kind of goes, huh, I kind of get that, though. She has a weird gene, so it just kind of does some weird stuff. I don’t know. The physical changes always make more sense to me than I guess the nonphysical, but I don’t know. It’s just my thought process.

Taylor: I guess. 

Katie: But you see why my brain is thinking that way, right?

Taylor: I do see your point. I don’t agree with it, but I see it. 

Katie: Yeah. 

Taylor: The other thing I want to say to that, though, the idea that Tony would be struggling more to recruit Kamala because of his science-focused brain. Think about Captain America like this dude came out from 1945 where he was the weirdest thing at the time, and now he has a kid climbing up walls, a literal witch, an android. Now you’ve got this girl, you know, in our hypothetical experience, you’ve got this girl who has a mutated gene who can literally bend light, matter, energy, and expand her body and all these types of things. Like, I think it’s almost harder for Cap to wrap your head around this stuff because he’s used to being the weirdest guy in the room. And then he woke up and suddenly he’s like the most normal guy in the room and he’s like, well, how did this happen?

Katie: I mean, that’s fair. I just think there’s a part of my thought process of Cap thinks everything’s weird because to Cap, everything is weird. That’s reality. So I think I mean, I even think about I blatantly think about the scene where Bucky and Sam are running through the airport, and here we have Spider-Man who starts crawling on the window and Bucky is like what the heck is that? And then Sam’s like, everybody’s got a gimmick now. It becomes such a real thing, I think and at this point, remember, Cap has dealt with an alien with a red skull who had a stone that he didn’t even know at the time was an Infinity stone that was opening a portal to space and that was in the forties. He’s seen some weird crap from the get-go, so I don’t know if that’s the weirdest thing he’s ever seen.

Taylor: This is true. This is true. So I think it’s time to give our final, after all of this debate, our final decision on where Kamala would land, Team Cap or Team Iron Man. You go first, I want to see if I swayed you.

Katie: I would say Team Cap if she was, I still think depending on who recruited her, I think she’d stay loyal, I think she would be loyal to that. Even the same as Peter was told one version of the story by Iron Man so he just went with that because he was 16 and what else is he going to do? That’s his idol. But I do think she would be Team Cap if it was her own choice.

Taylor: Yes, I agree. So that is two votes for Kamala on Team Cap. And even though technically Team Cap won in Civil War, I think they technically well, they all did end up in jail. So did they win? But then they escaped. That’s my next question. Who actually won?

Katie: Actually, when I did the newsletter about this topic I broke it down. Well, I broke down who was technically right but if we want to talk about who won, let’s save it to the end. And we can have that as our final debate. 

Taylor: All right. All right. So stay tuned and don’t turn this episode off because moving on, we are going to check out our second hero and I’m really, really excited for this one. Our good friend Shang-Chi who really if you heard our last episode, you know, this man deserves a next appearance. It is been two years. It’s long overdue. So we’re going to manifest it by talking about what would happen if he was on or a part of the Avengers in 2016. Katie, where do you think Shang-Chi would land in the great divide of the Avengers?

Katie: So I can’t explain this, but every fiber of my being also says Team Cap. And I just think it’s because I don’t see Shang-Chi getting along with Tony. I can’t explain why, but I just don’t see the two of them getting along and I don’t know what it is, but it’s like a passionate thing in my brain that I just don’t know. I feel that some of his background of how he was raised and just I mean, obviously his dad was a crappy dude.

Taylor: That’s an understatement.

Katie: Yeah. Marvel dads for the win as usual. But I feel that Tony can sometimes exhibit similar traits that are not always the most becoming of him. And I don’t think that’s always true of Tony, but I think it has been able to be said, and I think, as we already said, this movie is one of those where I think those traits are a little bit more prominent. So I think there’s just a vibe there that I don’t think Shang-Chi would like. I also don’t know why, I just feel he would really be driven a lot more towards Cap. I don’t think he wants control over him the same way that his father tried to control him and turn him into an assassin who pretty much was at his right hand all the time. So I think for the same reasons, you know, we were talking about how Kamala would feel a little bit not great having somebody control her actions, I feel the very same way for Shang-Chi.

Taylor: I think those are really, really good points. I’m struggling with him. I think because and it’s true for Kamala, too, that they never really interacted with either one of these guys. Obviously, you know, coming in post Blip. And Kamala actually had less interaction with any Avengers period. Like she hasn’t interacted really with an Avenger at all.

Katie: Yeah at this point, we have a few months still.

Taylor: Right, Shang-Chi has I mean he’s interacted with Wong and Captain Marvel and Bruce, so I don’t know why I’m struggling more with him than I am with her. I think it is like an inexplicable gut feeling that it is Cap. I think because I just keep coming back to Shang-Chi’s opening few scenes where you see him and the juxtaposition of him driving the really expensive car gut then it’s revealed it’s the valet.

Katie: Such a great scene.

Taylor: So good. I think it immediately sets him up as the everyman, right? He’s not Tony Stark, born into copious amounts of wealth. He, in some senses, was but denied it, right. He had the opportunity to be the heir to an unknown but implied very vast fortune when you think of his father’s empire in the Ten Rings. So I think that repudiation of wealth speaks very much against Tony. Now, Tony doesn’t have wealth just to have wealth anymore. I think obviously we saw in the first Iron Man, he was just blowing through it, being a total fart and just not a really good dude. You know, your stereotypical, I’ll say your stereotypical rich dude, not a care in the world. Obviously, we’ve seen as he’s matured that he’s been able to use that wealth to fund the Avengers, to fund, you know, all sorts of charitable things. The way he’s allowed Pepper to, or not allowed Pepper, but the way he’s given Pepper control over a lot of the finances to be able to do the outreach. And, you know, there’s a lot of throwaway lines that I think are easily missable throughout Tony’s films and even the Avengers films where they’re saying, oh, the Stark Foundation’s going to do this. The Stark Foundation did that. Tony paid for this, and Tony helped that person. So, you know, as much as I want to rag on Tony, I think he’s been able to use that wealth once he kind of had that wake-up call in the first Iron Man, he’s used it, put it to really good places and been able to make a difference with it. So I don’t think Tony’s a bad dude for having the wealth because, again, he’s used it in the right way. However, I think if you’re looking at it from Shang-Chi’s perspective, he may look at wealth as inherently bad because it’s his father’s greed that drove him to be so heartless, so cruel, to train him, to your point, to be an assassin from a young age to the point where he had to run away and leave the only person he truly loved, his sister, in that place with his father. And so, yeah, I think I do struggle with him relating to Tony. I think too, Cap kind of gives that every man, started from the bottom now we’re here vibe. Obviously when we see him in the forties, he’s this little-

Katie: I hate you.

Taylor: -he’s a scrawny dude, clearly not very wealthy. I mean, we don’t get to see the inside of his apartment, but you get the vibe that he was not very well off. And so he comes from humble beginnings. And I think though Shang-Chi kind of had the reverse where he came from what could have been, you know, a lot of wealth. You see his life at the beginning of the film in America. He’s working hard in doing all these things, basically living an average life, and he’s not living this opulent life and so I think he could relate to Cap in that way. And so my gut says Team Cap, I agree with you.

Katie: Yeah and I think you said it the best way at the beginning of all this in just saying it’s so hard to explain. And I know we both kind of gave a couple of reasons. I don’t know why, but I just really am, he was one when we talked about who we were going to talk about in this show or in this episode, I immediately was like Team Cap, and I couldn’t put an explanation like, don’t ask me to write my five paragraph essay because I don’t have one, two, three paragraphs.

Taylor: What’s your three-point thesis?

Katie: Yeah, I don’t have it because I don’t know, other than kind of what I’ve said already. It’s just a very strong feeling that I don’t see them getting along. And maybe this is too because I think Shang-Chi is so I mean, he deals with such darkness, but he’s such a light character. I mean, between him and Katy, they are just vibing out here, even though they’re like this close to dying half the time and that’s just who they are. And I don’t know, I just, I feel that his vibe, again going back to the vibes, but I just don’t feel like his vibe mixes with that of Tony’s, especially in 2016 and the seriousness of the topic at hand. I just think he doesn’t give me the impression of somebody who wants people to control him or to have control of him and where he goes. I also guess this could be argued both ways because of Black Widow being on Iron Man’s side. But is she really, that’s kind of a question mark, but I mean, I think there are some things to say when you have somebody like Bucky who has also a very similar past and obviously in a very different way, but does have almost a similar past to Shang-Chi on this team. And I don’t know, I feel that there’s a, how were you saying it? The everyday kind of person. I feel like there are more of them on Cap’s team than there are on Iron Man, which for some reason just makes me think that that attracts Shang-Chi too.

Taylor: Yeah, I would agree it’s less the what is he? The billionaire playboy philanthropist vibe?

Katie: Well, you got a king, you got a robot, you got the most advanced robot in the world. 

Taylor: Yeah. 

Katie: You have a colonel.

Taylor: Yeah. 

Katie: Who else? Oh, well, you have an assassin, but she’s like I said, she’s a flip. She’s kind of a gray area. Who am I missing? Oh, Peter.

Taylor: 

Oh, yeah, Well, he’s the everyman.

Katie: Yeah, but he’s half brainwashed by Tony Stark so can you really-

Taylor: He’s not an objective observer, that is for sure.

Katie: No. Literally, the conversation with him and Cap. He just told me you were wrong or he told me you were wrong but you think you’re right. I’m like, my guy, critical thinking skills.

Taylor: I know. Did it ever occur to you that maybe Tony is wrong but thinks he’s right? I know it’s tough to go against your hero and look at him critically, but my guy come on.

Katie: I hate that part. It annoys me so much but I digress.

Taylor: But I think the last thing I’ll say to that, I think it’s such a good way of showing and not telling that Peter is 16 because think about Peter now. Peter now would be calling him on his bull immediately. And so I think, you know, you look at that moment, you look at where Peter is now after everything that’s happened, you’re like, no, that’s a kid that’s grown up. What we saw in 2016, that was a 15, 16-year-old kid and that was such a good way of illustrating it. That hero says, go, I go. This is my guy and I’m going to do whatever he says. Yeah, I agree. I can’t quite put my finger on it, but I’m feeling Team Cap for Shang-Chi. Part of me wonders if maybe subconsciously we’re trying to just stack Team Cap so that they win. I don’t know.

Katie: They have the Scarlet Witch on their team. I don’t really think we need to stack them anymore.

Taylor: To be fair, she wasn’t the Scarlet Witch at the time.

Katie: But if we were looking at the lens of if we played our kickball game and we had to choose everybody right from the second and said everybody was on the board. I’m giving her full Scarlet Witch powers because that’s where she’s at at the moment.

Taylor: Okay it wouldn’t even be a fight. She would just blink Tony out of existence and be like, boop, done.

Katie: And I love that. Works for me.

Taylor: All right, moving on to our final hero, and I think this one could be one of the more interesting ones because I have a very, very clear idea of what side this hero will be on.

Katie: Me too.

Taylor: And I’m just going to go ahead and say it because I think we are going to agree. But it’s She-Hulk, our good friend Jennifer Walters, cousin of Bruce Banner, although you can’t pull the familial card because as we know, Bruce wasn’t involved in this either. So she’s repping for the whole family in this hypothetical scenario. Katelyn, what side is She-Hulk on?

Katie: She’s 100% Team Iron Man. 

Taylor: Yes, agreed.

Katie: 100%. I mean, there are two ways to look at this. One, the girl’s a lawyer. I mean, if they are trying to get you to sign pretty much a massive agreement, she’s going to look at it, read the entire thing through, and say, mhm. She’s going to do what Vision did, but like in the lawyer sense and pretty much say, well, look at all this, that another thing, we need to sign this. And she would have sat there in the Avengers compound and made every single one of them sign that whether or not. There wouldn’t have been a fight, she would have literally explained legally why they had to do this, and in bigger terms than we’re going to control you and would have made every single one of them sign that or not leave the place so there’s that. Two, though, in a weird way, pulling the familial card, no, Bruce was not in this fight, though many of us have already kind of discussed it online over the past almost eight years since this movie and I think I need to leave the room when I say that. That is just such a bad taste in my mouth.

Taylor: Stop, stop. Just move on.

Katie: But I think we’ve all agreed that Bruce would have probably been on Tony’s side. Bruce constantly wants control and I think, you know, having something that pretty much says he has to have control is something he would 100% get behind. And also who is Bruce to go against stuff like that half the time? He really doesn’t. I love Bruce, but he’s-

Taylor: The most passive man and he’s so kind.

Katie: Yeah, he’s pretty wishy-washy.

Taylor: Yeah, but he is just, he just follows Tony around. I mean, look at Age of Ultron, he just gets steamrolled. He was trying to be the voice of reason and Tony was like, you say words. I say words louder, and now we do this.

Katie: But he was like, are you sure you don’t want to do this? And next thing you know, he was like, you’re right, I do. I was like, listen, my best friend and I have the same relationship but at the end of the day, I mean, dude, stick up for yourself. Put your foot down. You know, this was a bad idea. So I think even in his relationship with Tony, he would have picked him. But also just looking at the fact he wants control and he would have gladly taken that and had somebody tell him where he had to be versus just having, you know, Cap call him up and say, turn green, my dude, we need you. I think he would totally have preferred it. So that being said, I could also have seen Jen choosing that side because I think her cousin would have.

Taylor: Yeah, I think those are good points. My gut immediately went also Team Iron Man also because of the lawyer aspect. I think even less about what’s actually in the Sokovia Accords because I think if there’s anybody who truly understands the level of surveillance, it would have actually been Jen. And that’s the one thing that makes me think that she would have had a problem with it because think about it this way, up until she has her little incident in the courtroom where she has to protect everyone, she was basically able to live her whole life under the radar not as She-Hulk, very much the way that Bruce wants to be, right. She had that and she was able to not have to deal with that identity. And obviously, we see throughout the film or the show that she comes to embrace that. But I think that there is potentially a part of her that doesn’t necessarily want to have Jennifer Walters, She-Hulk written on this legal piece of paper basically saying, yes, you can actually follow me around, do this, do whatever, like all of the things that are whatever it is enumerated in the Sokovia Accords. I think she would have the best understanding of all of the rights that are being stripped from them by the U.N., the government, whoever is actually enforcing it. So that’s the one thing where I’m like, maybe Team Cap because she would really understand the nuances that nobody but Vision understands because nobody bothered to read the whole thing but Vision and Vision isn’t a reliable narrator in this sense, because he doesn’t have the emotions to feel that yet, you know?

Katie: Well, he’s also kind of a complicated character because he’s only ever going to look at something logically because he’s unable to look at it any other way. 

Taylor: Exactly. 

Katie: So reading the whole thing and he does it in that scene, he runs the numbers. He’s like, well, since we’ve existed, this has you know, opponents of us have increased and, you know, this is what this looks like. I do, actually, I think you made such a great point there with Jen being the one who will have read it and actually understand it and understand what it’s asking. I do remember kind of looking into the Accords a little more and upon looking into them, there is a lot more than what was kind of made to know in the movie. If you really do your research on them and I honestly encourage you all to just because you know, whether or not we’re so many years out from the Accords and Civil War and all that happening or not, I mean, one of the works just mentioned that the Accords were repealed, and I can’t remember which one it was.

Taylor: It might have been She-Hulk.

Katie: Yeah, I can’t remember, but I do know we’ve gotten an update on it that the Accords have been repealed. So there is that again Team Cap, correct, thank you. But anyway, I do encourage you to understand what they were about because I think that’s a really good way to realize why Cap was fighting against them and understand why Tony was fighting for them. So I do, I encourage that, but I don’t know. You kind of have me now on the fence about it a little bit about saying Team Iron Man because I feel that some of the things in the accords are unfair. And if you think about it, I think even when Tony’s talking about not being able to grant Wanda a visa or something like that because they don’t grant them to weapons of mass destruction, I mean, talk about dehumanizing. So I think that could have been his point of view from the Accords. So if that’s true, I don’t know. Now I’m kind of in that weird gray area where I can kind of see her going both ways.

Taylor: Yeah. You know, I thought this was cut and dry. 

Katie: So did I.

Taylor: Lawyer equals law. But then lawyer equals the person who can read the law and understand what’s in it. You know, I think Cap and obviously we saw Rhodey and Sam read it as well, but all of their understanding is going to be somewhat limited, right? You and I can read, but I can tell you right now, sometimes I read legal jargon, whatever it is, it could be even just like a lease, right? Written in legal jargon and I get the gist. But do I understand the nuance? Probably not, right? This is someone who would understand those nuances and understand everything that’s really going into it. So if some of these guys are reading it like Cap, Sam and they already have objections, imagine what those objections would be if they understand just to the extent, you know, of what this is saying. The thing where I think the nuance lies with Jen is where is the result of the Sokovia Accords? And by that I mean if they’re legally passed because remember, they don’t need the Avengers to pass it, right? They’re going to pass the law regardless of whether or not all of the Avengers agree. It’s a matter of whether they will go and sign. And so I think that though Jen may not agree with everything that’s in it, the lawyer in her will not let her not sign because it applies to her. And so I think she can be the one to potentially say to others, hey, yeah, there’s some stuff in here that’s really bad and she wants to go negotiate. Sure, 100%. That opens up a whole nother conversation about what would happen if they actually had a lawyer in the room to be able to go back and say, we can agree to these points, but not these points. We can agree that you may get some in some instances, you may have oversight in what you do, and in other instances, we have, you know, lateral ability to move wherever we want and these are the places where that happens, blah, blah, blah. That’s a whole nother discussion I think is actually fascinating, is what would happen if, as a lawyer, she was able to argue some of these points and we don’t come to blows, we just have oral arguments in a courtroom. But I do think that because she believes in the law, which despite her strength and, you know, her now superhuman ability, I think that’s the core of who Jen is, is someone who believes in the rule of law. And so despite the fact that she may not agree with everything in the Accords and they do not have the opportunity to negotiate, as soon as that is passed by the U.N. she will sign because she believes that law is law. And I think that’s where the nuance lies with Jen, is that she may not like it, but she’s going to sign it because she is going to uphold the law because that is what she did when she, you know, became a lawyer and did all of the oaths or whatever they have to do. That’s what she signed up to do regardless of whether or not she agrees with it.

Katie: Yeah, you’re right. So I think I’m going to stick with my gut of what I said at the beginning and I still think she would be Team Iron Man. But I do think you have to look at it with that nuance in order to understand it fully. If you don’t just look at a surface level, because I think if you do look at it with a surface level point of view, I could see just saying Team Iron Man. Once you start to go down a little lower you’re like, oh, I can see Team Cap a little bit. And then I think once you reach that lowest point where you were with talking about the extra nuances added into it and everything, I think you’ll still end up at Team Iron Man with her and that’s fine because I still think it does make the most sense. And to your point, it would be fascinating to understand if she was in that room what could have been negotiated differently in the Sokovia Accords?

Taylor: Yeah, think it just adds a whole extra layer. And I think the headline for Jen is begrudging member of Team Cap, right? Brought along because the law says she has to come along, but maybe her heart is with Team Cap you know?

Katie: Yeah. 

Taylor: So begrudging member of Team Iron Man, Jen Walters and that’s our final answer.

Katie: Would she have shown up at the airport? We’re not sure

Taylor: Unclear. Maybe she just signs her name and goes back to court. I mean, more power to her. Power move from a power lady so go for it. 

Katie: Yeah, I agree with that. But we promised that now we have to answer the question of who won. Like I said, we’ve talked about and we’ve had newsletters about who was right. But I guess now if we look at just the airport battle, who actually won, I’m going to, before we even go any further, put my my stake in the ground. And I’m going to say not just because I am Team Cap, but because I wholeheartedly believe if we look at what was left of Team Iron Man, that Team Cap won.

Taylor: I don’t think there’s a debate here. I think that is I mean, objectively, I too, you all know Team Cap 100%. I have a Captain America pillow currently sitting on my bed and multiple Captain America plushies. It just is what it is.

Katie: I mean Bucky and Sam are staring at me right now.

Taylor: It’s true. There’s also Loki staring at me through the camera. It’s great. But regardless of how I feel personally about who was right, let’s just take a look. On the surface, you might say yes, but all of Team Cap besides Cap and Bucky were jailed. But let’s look at the objective here. What was the objective of going to the airport in Germany? One, to get the Quinjet to go stop Zemo. What was accomplished at the airport in Germany? None other than the actual getting of the Quinjet and a trip to Zemo. So objective completed, mission successful, point for Team Cap.

Katie: Well, and then let’s look at it this way. Let’s go one by one of Iron Man, okay, of Team Iron Man. 

Taylor: I knew we were going to do this. 

Katie: I just, I have to. First off, you have Black Widow who lets Bucky and Cap go. Okay, changes sides at the end, says get out of here.

Taylor: Here’s the thing about Natasha. This girl is self-preservation above all things and one, yeah, of course, she does agree at this point with Cap and Bucky. But she also saw the tides turning and was like, oh, I think I’m going to switch sides now.

Katie: She’s my fave and I don’t care. But two, not only does she do that, she shoots the king of Wakanda to stop him as the only one who probably at that point could have, stopped Cap and Bucky. So not only does she turn on her own team to let them go, but she quite literally shoots a member of our team. So not looking too good there.

Taylor: And speaking of the king of Wakanda, he at the end, switches sides too because he basically was like Bucky didn’t do this, Zemo did this whole thing. 

Katie: Yeah, literally the only reason he was on Team Iron Man anyway was because Bucky was on Team Cap. 

Taylor: My guy could not have cared less about the Accords. Like, yes, he was there, well, that’s actually not true. I take that back because those were Wakandans who were killed in the bombing with Wanda. So, I do take that back. He does care about the Accords. That’s why he and his father are there so I’m going to roll that one back. But I will say his primary motivation throughout the film is not adherence to the Accords. It is revenge for his father’s murder. And so obviously, we see him switch sides. I would say switch sides because he realizes that Bucky is not the bad guy. And I don’t know that his belief in the Accords is enough to keep him on Team Iron Man.

Katie: I’m actually going to argue against you just in this case. I actually don’t think he switches sides. I think he realizes neither side is right.

Taylor: That’s a better, yeah, that’s a better take on that.

Katie: Yeah, I think that’s the whole point of his conversation even with Zemo at the end, he’s like, those men down there are filled with hatred. They’re angry and they want revenge and that’s not who I am. And he was like, I could kill you, but I’m not going to. I could let you kill yourself, but I’m not going to. You’re going to atest for your sins. But either way, Team Iron Man lost a member, whether or not flipped or not, he walked away from that battle because he was like, hold on. So not looking so good. Then we have Vision who gets distracted by Wanda because he’s in love with her and in the meantime takes out one of his own dudes because he’s distracted by Wanda and then two go down from Team Iron Man.

Taylor: In one of the most devastating moments of all of the movies. Even with all the deaths that we’ve seen, I still get just as emotional watching Rhodey dead stick fall into that thing and watching Iron Man and Sam try to save him. I just, that one gets me. And now you know all of the things around Secret Invasion. So now that scene has much extra weight to it that I just can’t. I refuse to acknowledge it but also, it makes me angry. So there’s a lot of emotions around that scene.

Katie: Fair, but at the end of the day, we’ve got some not-so-good moments happening between those two on Team Iron Man. So we’re down four and then Peter pretty much gets smacked around to the point where he just is not standing. So, you know, the only one who actually walked away from Team Iron Man was Iron Man. And should I be shocked? 

Taylor: No.

Katie: Not at all.

Taylor: Because like Natasha, Tony is the king. If Natasha is the queen of self-preservation, Tony is the king and they are running that self-preservation club there. You’re very right and you know, the counterargument to that could be that all of Team Cap ends up in jail minus Captain and Bucky. But let’s talk about this long-term. 

Katie: They’re free. 

Taylor: Yeah. He springs Wanda. Nat who’s questionablely on Team Cap, she’s out here walking around. Nobody cares. 

Katie: No, she’s literally, like, living her life.

Taylor: I know. She’s walking around the compound and the only person who’s annoyed about it is Tony because he’s butt hurt about it. Yes, Scott has some house arrest, but like, realistically, it’s not that bad. Clint, I’m assuming, had a similar house arrest issue and Sam’s out here sprung with Cap. So, you know, they’re all secret Avengering it out there in the wild. 

Katie: Bucky is living it up in Wakanda.

Taylor: Yeah, like everybody is fine. And actually, if you want to talk about an argument for T’Challa switching sides, talk about the fact that he, you know, is housing members of the other team. 

Katie: Not only does he take Bucky in, but he’s like, of course, we will take the mind programming out of your head because that’s the right thing to do. Like this is the kind of man he is.

Taylor: And also a really good big brother because he knows his little sister loves a good puzzle and what is Bucky Barnes if not a good puzzle for Shuri?

Katie: What is Bucky Barnes but another broken white boy for her to fix?

Taylor: Best line of almost any film. 

Katie: So let’s just say it. I mean, I think Team Cap walked out pretty well. I mean, listen, the whole jail time wasn’t that great, but post that, I mean, Wanda ends up being able to be with Vision on the run, living their lives with Cap and Nat and Sam checking in on them every once in a while. But the three of them are living it up like a cool old little squad. Bucky is finally getting the mind control taken out of his head, and he’s getting to live a peaceful life for the first time, literally like ever. And Clint and Scott, while on house arrest, get to live with their kids, get to go on their little adventures. Obviously, this doesn’t work out for Clint, who all his kids dust eventually and never works out for him. But his with his children like it’s not like he’s out here, I mean, Clint wanted to retire. This worked out for Clint.

Taylor: Yeah, he literally was forced into the retirement he wanted at the beginning of the movie anyway.

Kati: Yeah, the one that he was supposed to be on, but came back to make sure Wanda would get, pretty much to jump Wanda out of the compound.

Taylor: Because remember, he shot 18. He scored 18.

Katie: Yeah, exactly. So, listen, when we do the math, it looks like five went down on Iron Man, but all six made it out of Team Cap and ended up thriving.

Taylor: And not to mention they were successful in obtaining their mission objective.

Katie: They got the Quinjet.

Taylor: That is a win-win scenario. I don’t even know what the argument would be for saying Team Cap, other than technically the Sokovia Accords went into effect, which they would have done anyway.

Katie: Yeah, they just weren’t signed by them. And regardless, that’s why they ended up in jail.

Taylor: Well, right.

Katie: Because they didn’t sign up there was no protection.

Taylor: Right. So there’s really no argument in my book for Team Iron Man, winning jack squat in that airport battle. So let’s run through a summary of what we have decided here today because I guess I shouldn’t be surprised because when it comes to Civil War, you and I are pretty much on the same page with like 99 to 100% of this. But in summary, Kamala Khan: Team Cap, Shang-Chi: Team Cap, Jen Walters, a.k.a. She-Hulk: Team Iron Man. Her only flaw. 

Katie: I know.

Taylor: And last but not least, if we were to actually take score, who won the airport battle? The most famous scene from the movie. It is, in fact, Team Cap all the way. No questions.

Katie: Yeah, agreed. 100% four for four.

Taylor: I mean, look at us. That is agreement 100% all the way through and also I think we left no room for argument. But if you do have a different take, we’re open to hearing it. So make sure that you are checking in with us on all of the socials, and leaving comments on the website. If you’re on Spotify or any podcast platform that allows you to leave responses, definitely do that. We’ll also put up a Q&A on Spotify so you can or a poll so you can do that. Just please interact with us. We think we’re right and we feel really good about that but the occasional spirited debate is never, ever discouraged on this show, as you all know. So this has been super fun. We’ll definitely try to incorporate more shows like this moving forward in between Marvel properties that are premiering. And if you’re excited to have more episodes like this where we get to debate all sorts of different topics relating to the MCU and you haven’t already, please make sure that you are following on your pod platform of choice, checking out the website, which is basically our central hub for everything, and if you may be so inclined, also potentially helping to support the show through some of the affiliate links that we have on the homepage.

Katie: Keep up with us on Instagram and Threads at SistersAssembled and Twitter at SisAssembledPod or X. I keep forgetting it’s supposed to be X now, but I’m going to call Twitter and I say this every time, but it’s going to be Twitter and just deal with it. As Taylor said, Marvel content is coming. Well, she didn’t quite say that, but that’s essentially what she was getting at because we are starting our coverage of Loki already, well, Loki Season Two for specifics. So get ready because guys, the next episode is already Loki Predictions, and from there on out we have six more glorious weeks with Loki as we tackle Season Two.

Taylor: And we promise there will be seven spicy weeks of Loki because there’s no way we’re not going to be enthusiastic one way or the other about this show. 

Katie: Yeah, I think you’re going to see some of the more heated moments. They haven’t made it to the show for a while. Well, even a lot of our debates, we unfortunately end up agreeing so I have to say this should be good. So get ready, guys, because not only is our coverage going to be amazing of this, but I’m hoping Season Two redeems Season One. So get prepared. Make sure you’re ready because Marvel just blew your mind, so let’s talk about it.