Transcript

Taylor: Welcome listeners. I mean, we have quite the show for you today. I just want to give you a few updates on what’s going on, in general, and then also tonight, because I think you all know what kind of night it is tonight. But first, we cannot start this episode without noting. Please note we’re recording this on the Thursday that both The Marvels and Loki come out without mentioning that the end of the SAG strike has arrived. Go, SAG, you guys, you held your ground, you got what you needed and now we all get to watch TV and movies again. So it is a great, great couple of days. Thank the Lord, we are back in business. Now, everybody, get back to work, let’s go, we have some stuff we want to watch. 

Katie: No, I know. I’m not going to lie, I was very nervous about it because they were like, it’s the final deal they’re going to offer and I was like, how? You can’t do anything without actors but go off, and they agreed so we’re good.

Taylor: I know I was like you, I mean, you’re not going to just walk away from your actors because what do you think you’re going to do? But all right, you do you studios, it’s fine. But it all worked out. We’re here. We are moving on. We are paying people what they deserve. We’re getting concessions on AI, and we are doing all the things. I am so happy that we’re back in business. Tinseltown is back, baby, and we’re all going to get new content in 2024. What a great day to be alive and specific to Marvel we are now in the middle. The very middle of a very special Thursday, November 9th, 2023, which is the first time that all Marvel fans have the opportunity to watch not only a movie but a show premiere and not just a show, but a season potentially series finale on the same evening. Now in our journey, we have both just watched The Marvels. You saw the title of this episode, this is The Marvel Reactions and man, do we have a lot to talk about. I talked to Katie on my walk home. We are excited to dive in, don’t you worry, and then right after this, we’re going to go watch Loki and we’re going to hop back on and prepare that episode for you, where I’m sure and I’m hoping we’re going to be just as hyped and just as excited as we are right now. So it is a great day all the way around. We are in the middle of an exciting evening and we’re going to keep this energy up all the way through.

Katie: I just realized Loki is going to make or break the night at this point. We’re both in such good moods after The Marvels that I’m like, crap, what if we go and watch Loki and it’s the worst?

Taylor: I would be so sad if Loki brought me down from my current high because, I mean, let’s just get into it. The Marvels is fantastic. You all are here because you’ve seen the film, so you know how darn good it is and we’re going to get into it but I want to say one thing. We’ve all seen the articles, the Variety article, talking about how Marvel is having issues. We’ve all seen the articles talking about the pre-sales for this movie. If you have seen this film, which by the way, if you haven’t seen the film, don’t listen to this episode. Go watch and then come back.

Katie: Yeah, don’t listen any further.

Taylor: Yeah, we’re going to talk about lots and lots of spoilers, but if you’ve seen the film go encourage everyone you know to also go see this film because it does not deserve to be in the same type of ticket sale conversation as a film like The Flash. Let’s just remove that from the conversation. Everybody, let’s show up, show out. It’s a female-directed film, a female-led film, and it is absolutely fantastic so let’s go make sure we support our ladies. All right, rant over, I’m stepping off my soapbox and now we’re going to talk about our reactions.

Katie: Works for me, man. Now, I have to say, you could have kept going because honestly, first off, as a women-led podcast, we talk about this all the time, not always in an episode, but sometimes it’s just brought up in random episodes with female heroes and things like that. There’s been just a lot with female heroes in the now, what, 15 years of Marvel or the MCU itself and just go look at Black Widow in an early Marvel movie. So I think being able to sit here and say to what you just said a female-led, three female-led movie.

Taylor: With a female villain.

Katie: Yes, with a female villain. And listen, if that’s your reason for not watching it, you don’t belong here, quite frankly, because I’m sorry it was so good and every single one of you can attest we are not Captain Marvel girls. We did not love her movie. We didn’t love her as a character. It’s just a personal preference and we both happened to agree on it. But oh my God, like from start to finish of this film, I was just into it. I was cackling in the theater like me and the seven people who were there at 4:45 to watch it. I’m laughing my butt off with the guy who was sitting one row in front of me and we had a random conversation at the beginning about coming to Thursday night showings. And he’s laughing, I’m laughing like we’re having a good time and of course, the ending happened. We’ll get to the ending. But it just didn’t have a moment where you thought, eh, like it just didn’t stop. It just kept going. I’m going to probably go watch it again, I’m not going to lie.

Taylor: And you know what? You said something that I didn’t think about when we were talking right after I saw it. So I mentioned this before, but on my walk home from the theater, it’s about a 15-block walk. I called Katie because I was like, well, one we have to prep for the episode but also I am like literally on cloud nine I don’t even know that my feet are touching the ground right now. But I called her on the way home and one of the things that I didn’t think of at the time, but you just kind of sparked in me is it didn’t have a moment where it fell off and you know why I think that was? Because we didn’t force a three-hour movie down people’s throats. Some movies need to be 3 hours. Endgame, a lot was going on, it needed to be 3 hours. 

Katie: Okay but even then, I could argue Endgame didn’t need to be 3 hours.

Taylor: Yeah, okay maybe two and a half, because you definitely could have like taken that first hour and cut to half. Okay, I get it, the whole universe died, but like, I didn’t need to see 30 minutes of depression. I just needed to see the result, let’s go fix it but anyway, that’s a whole other thing that we’re going to cover in a later episode on a replay. But this nice hour and 30 minutes, hour and 45-minute movie, it was paced perfectly beat for beat. It was all right, great, every scene had a purpose and that’s something that James Gunn even talked about in his film, which of course, Guardians Three was much, much longer. But I think we’re getting to a place now and I hope that this continues where we are not just shoving films with fluff, we are making every scene count, whether it’s an emotional beat, a plot beat, a wider MCU ramification. Everything needs to have a purpose because you’re going to lose people on it and I think this film was a perfect example of how to execute that because everything was either character-driven, plot-driven, or wider MCU-focused. And I was just thoroughly entertained. I was moved. I thought all of the characters were incredibly well-developed. They also evolved, and their relationships evolved. We got to see a resolution between characters, and we’ll dive into that, I’m sure. But there was just so much packed into an hour and 30 or 45 minutes that it was well-executed, well-paced, and just enjoyable from minute one to minute, however many minutes that is from an hour and a half to an hour and 45 minutes. It was great. It was fantastic. Top five of all time. Never thought I’d say that about a Captain Marvel film, but top five of all time. Great job, everybody involved. Fantastic work.

Katie: Yeah and I want to go off that just for a little bit. Just the fact that there have been a lot of movies, I think recently especially, and maybe this goes into, you kind of brought up that article and I think this might go into it a little bit too. There’s just so much content and it’s so long and I don’t mean it like, oh the TV shows and the movies and blah blah, blah, blah, blah. I would die if I wasn’t getting three Marvel movies and at least two shows a year at this point. I would be done like, I need this. I need it for pure joy, even when they overlap things and annoy me because I’m like, really? We have like a bunch of other weeks of the year. But anyway, I think that’s some of it too. And that’s a great point you’ve been making. I don’t think Quantumania needed to be over 2 hours, I don’t think Quantumania needed to pass an hour and a half, yet it did. And so I think showing yourself what time you have and we talked about this even with the TV shows, it’s not even just the six-episode formats. They just don’t understand the timing they have, where to cut things, where to put things, and how to tell one cohesive story in some of these episodes. I think this movie did an amazing job of being, honestly, I think it was more, here’s the story, this is what we need to tell it, and if it’s an hour and 45 minutes, great. If it’s 2 hours and 15 minutes, awesome but they didn’t feel like they had to reach a time thing. And I’m not saying all the directors necessarily did either, but I do feel like especially since Endgame, it’s just been one of those things. Longer movies, longer movies and it doesn’t necessarily equate to better content or a better movie. And I just think this one did an amazing job at saying, here’s my story, here’s what I’m going to tell it in and I don’t care how long it is and it was just good. I did not sit there for a single time in that theater being like, oh my God, is this almost over? No, I was eating this crap up like it was nobody’s business. That bag of popcorn was getting demolished because I was like, this is so good.

Taylor: Yeah. I mean, truly just very efficient storytelling, very smart storytelling. And I want to dive into the characters because I think that is one of the true strengths of the film. I mean, don’t get me wrong, the actual story itself is very well put together. All the narrative threads tie and they do a really, really good job but I think the characters drove this and made it something that I wanted to watch. It made it believable in like as much as you can believe a Marvel movie, but like, you were rooting for them and not to say that you don’t root for other heroes, but like sometimes when you’re forcing and we talked about this before we got on, sometimes it feels like you’re almost forcing a team up. This team-up was natural. They worked well together. They forged this beautiful bond, a female beautiful bond and it wasn’t this forced team moment and it was just really, really strong characters. We talked about Katie and I, bringing in Kamala’s family and having them still continue to be strong characters which grounded Kamala and her familial ties, which are so important to her character but also created a lot of levity and also kind of a little bit of a normality check too, like this family from Jersey City is like suddenly going to space and it was hilarious and fun. And I just think the characters were so well done in this film, and they helped, really bolster my enjoyment, for sure.

Katie: So I know you were just talking more openly, but I do have to talk about Kamala’s family and Mrs. Khan especially because I loved her in the series like I thought she was so funny. And I think we talked about at the time, Taylor and I are not any descendant of Middle Eastern, but I think we were talking about having friends who were and just understanding that dynamic a little bit in our own lives, what we’ve seen. And it’s very funny because her being in this was so good. I mean, the whole family was great, but just she is like, I can’t explain it. I just was so, I was dying. She was so good because she was that constant break from some of the heavy tension. You just suddenly have, you know, Mrs. Khan out here making these one-off comments because that’s just how she talks and then she’s out here like, it’s never one question. It’s a whole thing and I love even when Kamala was like, I don’t know what’s happening and she’s like, are you telling me lies again? Are you lying? What is going on, Kamala? What is going on? And then her dad’s out here like, is Captain Marvel being a bad influence on you? And it’s just so funny, but it reminds you again of how young Kamala is, and there’s a naive aspect to her and it’s fun, though, to still have a hero like that. I mean, we lost that with Peter because of some of the circumstances he went through. So the family being in there just brought a different thing and I have to say, we don’t see that often. I mean, how many heroes are, well, one is that young and you get to have their parents in it, but two are just in general around their families. I mean, we saw Sam’s a little in The Falcon and Winter Soldier, but that was it. We don’t really get a lot of that experience. I was really happy that they made it past that first scene because I actually didn’t expect them to and the fact that, not in a bad way, I just expected them to be in the opening scene and kind of phase them out. But the fact that they just stayed in the whole movie, I had so much joy inside of me.

Taylor: And I think one of my absolute favorite aspects of the whole film was just them riffing with Nick Fury and Samuel L. Jackson. Those were the interactions I didn’t know I needed, but now I am so glad that I got to experience them because Mrs. Khan and Nick Fury, I was laughing so hard. I was like, this is gold. This is everything I wanted in the world.

Katie: Exactly and I said to Taylor when we were on that phone call while she was walking back to her apartment, I said to Taylor, we don’t get to see this side of Nick often. I mean, he’s been in like 12 properties, but the only time we see him be this lighthearted almost is with Captain Marvel. And I want to walk myself back on that because I said that earlier but also, I will throw in our buddy Phil Coulson, who also, very much has that dynamic with but we see him be like that in Captain Marvel, the first one. Really threw us off I think when we first watched it, it was a very different side of him than we’re used to seeing. Obviously, we kind of see where he comes from then, but it’s so fun, especially after just watching Secret Invasion to see him go back into that, that lightheartedness. I said to Taylor some of the comments he was making he and Mrs. Khan could have a show. At this point, give them a show, everybody else gets a show. Give them a show, because I think I’d just laugh. Give them a comedy special. I’d laugh for an hour and I’d be okay with that.

Taylor: Yeah, I agree. I mean, that was some of my favorite interactions in the entire film. I just thought they were so funny and I also really enjoyed the actual Marvels themselves. You know, I think we’ve talked about this in the past, Carol is not a particularly likable character in her film, not because she’s a bad person or in her first film, I should say, not because she’s a bad person or because she’s inherently unlikable. I just found her to be kind of dry. She doesn’t give a lot for you to attach to or empathize, not empathize, but get attached to you, I should say, as a character. And in this film, you can see the toll that the things that she’s been doing for the last 30 years have taken on her. You can see how it’s impacted her relationships with her family and things like that and then she was also funny and much more outgoing than she was in her first film. I think it’s opened up a new side to the character that I would love to explore more like I am now more excited to see her in future properties because I want to explore this side of Carol. This version of Carol is something that I want to follow way more than the version that we saw in the first film.

Katie: Right and I think with Captain Marvel in that first film, she was essentially, I don’t want to say mind control, but close to it and I think that was the idea behind it. But I don’t know, I mean, personally, I remember going into Captain Marvel, I knew nothing about her. I was a big Marvel fan, but not enough to be like, let me do my research. I just was going to walk into that movie and figured they’d tell me so I just didn’t think anything of it. And I think not knowing any of the background behind the character, she just comes across as stiff, even though I think that’s the idea. And I mean, Brie Larson is genuinely like an award-winning actress. She’s more than that. So I think when you don’t have a script that allows her to genuinely act, I think it can definitely make the experience harder. This one did let her thaw if you will. She no longer had that coldness, you could tell that there’s been growth since the first movie. Obviously, we’ve seen her in other properties. We saw in Endgame, that’s the big one that comes to mind because she was very hands-on there. But I mean, talk about the fact that she is now on Earth just casually and now we have Captain Marvel chillin’ on Earth. So now with any threat, my argument is going to sustain when I’m like, where is Captain Marvel? Because she’s literally on Earth now.

Taylor: Yeah, which is exciting. It opens a lot of doors and I hope it means we get to see more of her. Like I said, I really like this version of her and I think when you were saying that she was stiff and it was hard probably for Brie Larson to really bring the character to life, it kind of made me think about how that was our first interaction with her. We had no other context. You can research all you want about a character and know her background, and that’s fine. But if you’re still watching her introduction, be as stiff as a board, no matter what you know about her background, that’s not going to help you. And so I think that was maybe not the right choice for her first film creatively. Whoever wrote the film or directed it, I don’t remember, honestly, maybe not the right choice to introduce a character with no personality. But I am glad that they were able to figure it out this time to kind of rectify that, and be like, actually, this character is really fun. She’s really deep. She cares a lot about the people around her. We saw that with Monica. We saw it in the way that she immediately apologized to Kamala when she kind of belittled her like she cares about the people around her. She wants them to be safe, and she also cares about what those people think of her, which I thought was really interesting and I’m sure that’s something we’ll explore a little bit more. But those were the elements that were missing in her first film, and I’m glad that we got to kind of shade the character in a little bit more and add that color and say, oh no, she’s not just this like Kree mind-controlled robot. There’s a person there. There’s a person who’s trying to understand her past, who has loved ones, who wants to be there for them and I think that was so important to almost save the character from all the backlash she gets. And that’s so unfair to Brie Larson, too, because I know she’s gotten so much hate and honestly, even the most award-winning actress can’t save a bad script, can’t save a bad, I don’t think the narrative of her first film is bad. I think it’s an interesting story but the creative choices that were made about how to portray the character, can’t necessarily always be fixed right away. And so I’m glad that she was given material where she could show Carol’s humanity and the depth of the character.

Katie: Well, we’ve also said before, unfortunately, she fell at like the worst time ever. Marvel just didn’t really make a good attempt to bring in, I mean, you’re bringing in this character when you just dusted half the universe and nobody knows what just happened. In the nicest of ways, that’s no time anybody wants a new character, everybody’s crying, if you’re me in the streets. I just think that was also some of the impact there but you kind of were bringing up Monica there, and I know we’re going to talk about Kamala, too, but I love Monica. I loved Monica in Wandavision. I love that she’s not some random person because I think they could have done that and whatever but I love that she has this relationship with Carol from when she was young. You know, she’s a continuation when you now watch things in timeline order. I mean that’s what the nineties right? So I feel like you’d watch her kind of grow up even though you really don’t you’re like, that’s who she is and this makes a lot of sense. It’s like when we got to see what’s his name, Harden, right? Or Harvey. Harvey from Iron Man Three.

Taylor: I know who you mean, but I can’t remember his name.

Katie: It’s something like that or something. Okay, well, you all know who I’m talking about. That little kid being at Iron Man’s funeral. It’s just the connection to that. So I loved her when she was in WandaVision, and then to bring her in here made a lot of sense from the get-go. But then to finally it was cool that we didn’t know everything about her powers because she didn’t yet either. So it was really interesting that we almost still got to see an origin for her. I mean, obviously, we saw her real origin, but we got to see her learning her powers still, even though there’s been some time since Wanda and the Hex and everything else, and is anyone surprised that she’s with Nick Fury? You shouldn’t be. The Skrull recruited her at the end of WandaVision, but it makes sense too. What is Nick doing? He’s constantly accidentally creating teams and he accidentally created one here too, by continuing to bring them together while they kept flipping spots but I thought this was a great deep dive into Monica. And I want to just bring this up if you remember WandaVision and Taylor you’re going to know exactly what I’m talking about, when I say this, she makes a weird comment when they bring up Captain Marvel, and I can’t remember what it was, but I remember us both and we didn’t have a show yet, but I remember us both being in Taylor’s room, sitting on her bed, and actually not even. I remember us both being downstairs, having watched that, and we both kind of looked at each other like, huh that was weird. And then we talked about it later when we were in Taylor’s room on her bed just chillin’, talking about the show. But now I think you kind of see why and they explore that. That didn’t just go away. That’s not just something, because that’s what I was worried about going into this and I think we talked about that. We got to see why she kind of had that animosity towards Carol.

Taylor: Yeah, and I loved that. I think it really added, again, like layers to the relationship and you could see it really paid off on something that took two and a half years. And I like what you were saying about it not going away because I think in a shared universe and we’ve talked about this many times, you run the risk of different writers and different directors coming in and choosing what beats they want to take from each character, what traits, what lines, what experiences that they’ve had, and what ones they want to dial-up and what ones they want to dial down. I’m glad that the people who worked on The Marvels decided to take that nugget from WandaVision and say, no, this is a relationship thing that we need to resolve. They need to talk through the fact that Carol didn’t come back, that she didn’t keep her promise. But then what I really loved about it was that we actually deeply understood why and it wasn’t just her line about, oh well other people needed me, which I thought was interesting in the way that Monica reacted. I loved her line well we needed you too. It kind of, you could see the gears turning in Carol’s head like, it’s not just about saving people physically, it’s what can I do to be there for the people that I love? And I think that was an interesting kind of growth moment for Carol but also then you see the flashbacks of her actually talking to Maria when she got cancer again and you realize like, oh my God, she was there. She did see her friend and that’s a whole nother layer.

Katie: Monica just wasn’t.

Taylor: Yeah and that’s a whole nother thing that we never knew and I love that underlying storyline there. It was incredibly sad, but I think it added a lot of depth to both characters especially their relationship to one another. But I also think the really interesting thing then is it’s not just about, well, I was trying to save other people, but the shame that she feels for what she did on Hala, which we’re definitely going to dive into that because that’s a whole, obviously it’s the crux of the film, but I think there’s so much to talk about there. But I think that that shame being kind of the reason she didn’t come back is just such an interesting point and such an interesting way to tell the story and I think it adds so much to it. That alone just made me like so excited because I was like, that’s deep, it’s not surface level, I was trying to save the world, it’s human level. This is a human emotion that I did something I’m ashamed of, and now I can’t face the little girl who’s not a little girl anymore but now I can’t face the little girl who idolized me because I can’t even look her in the eye because of what I’ve done.

Katie: Yeah, I thought their relationship and how it grew even in the hour and 45 minutes meant a lot and I was really glad that they explored that properly and didn’t waste that. And I think a lot of Monica’s story is based off of Carol and we needed to see that. I think it would have been a disservice if we didn’t and so I was glad that we saw that relationship bloom as it needed to. And then, you know, then we had Kamala, who let’s be real, was here to be the comic relief during a lot of this. Not that, Carol, didn’t have her funny parts or Monica didn’t. I mean, Monica, she had one line that I don’t even remember what it was, but I think she was just essentially telling Kamala to stop but in the most like, motherly way, that just made me laugh for no apparent reason. I just was like, you met her three days ago and I love this. But Kamala was literally the only reason I will tell you for most of this film that I was cry-laughing because not even just her reaction to things because we all saw those in the trailers, we already knew they were going to be funny. Just her being in this element that she’s dreamed about forever and that she’s wanted for her entire life, we always say Kamala was relatable because she’s the relatable fan girl and that’s why we loved her in her show. So just to see it happen, you’re like, this would have been me and I get it so we’re on the same page. She had me cracking up, there’s no other way for me to say. Does she have character growth? Yes, because I think she saw the negative side of being a hero. I think she was faced with times when Carol had to make hard choices and this person she idolized wasn’t as perfect as she thinks she is and then I think they lost Monica, and we’ll get to that then, too. But you almost, not that she died, but from the outside had a casualty on your team so I think that’s hard to come into that being your first experience as a team up with all these experienced heroes and you lose someone.

Taylor: Yeah, honestly, Kamala Khan continues to be my MVP, one of my absolute favorite characters in the MCU right now. They could literally put Kamala in every single property for the rest of time, and I’d be like, I’m cool with it, let’s do it. Like the Kamala Khan universe.

Katie: I think I need like a Kamala reacts to and then that’s all it is, like a ten-minute miniseries. And it’s just Kamala reacting to a bunch of random scenarios.

Taylor: Is that not just like Iman Vellani living her life, though, like, real questions? Anyway, we love Kamala. We love everything about her and you’re right, she was amazing. Just so funny. But I think what I really loved about it, other than her getting to meet her idol and stepping into the wider MCU more was that growth that you mentioned. I think one, you totally hit the nail on the head with her really seeing what it truly means to be a hero. She obviously saved lives in her show for sure, there were high stakes, but she didn’t really see death the way that she saw death in the Skrull colony. She didn’t see those hard decisions that had to be made. She didn’t see, to your point, casualties of people that she cared about like that and so I think you’re going to see in Kamala’s future endeavors, and trust me, that’s something that we’re going to talk about because, man oh man, those last couple minutes. 

Katie: Oh my God.

Taylor: But obviously we’ve got way more Kamala to come. I think knowing that we’re going to see a more mature version of her who understands a little bit more the consequences of being a hero and I love that. And I think they did it in a way that doesn’t immediately make her this dark, brooding character, and not that I think that they did that with Peter either, but I think Peter’s was such a devastating loss that you immediately he went from boy to man in 5 seconds, right? He went from happy-go-lucky Peter, oh my God I met two versions of myself to I’m literally alone, my aunt is dead and none of my friends know who I am, really nobody knows who I am. So that’s definitely, like, crazy. But I like that Kamala went, like, halfway there. She’s going to look at things a little more maturely, but she’s not going to lose the fun. She’s not going to lose that beautiful, bright, positive light that she brings to everything, which I think is another reason I really love the character. And I’m excited to see that kind of balance out in future properties as she grows and matures and continues to meet new people, yay, and also face new challenges.

Katie: And I think she’s just a fun character and I think if you take that away from her, what do you have? Because I think Peter’s great when he’s 15 and then to your point, we see it’s not just, you know, what happens in No Way Home. He loses Tony, he’s dusted for five years, and Mysterio leaks who he is. He goes through some real crap before we even get to No Way Home and then No Way Home happens and you’re right to the point where within two years, that kid’s life completely goes upside down. Of course, he was fun when he was 15 and of course, Kamala is fun, but I think she’s just a fun character in general. And I think that taking that away is unfair, quite frankly. I think that’s who she is to heart. I mean, look at her family. It’s dysfunction at its best and I love them and you see how much all of that plays off of itself. I know I had my feelings about Ms. Marvel as a show, as a show. The show itself, the story, some of where we went with it but I loved every character and they did very well with that. And so I think keeping her lighthearted, but to your point, maturing her a little bit, I mean, she did deal with some stuff in her show, but not to this level, especially intergalactic. I mean, she’s out in space dealing with all sorts of crap. It’s a new world, but I think it’s good to kind of find that medium. You can’t have a hero who’s all fun. Then you kind of just get Deadpool, only Deadpool can be Deadpool, you know what I mean? No one compares to Deadpool. But you also don’t want a young hero to always be like that because I think that gets annoying. I think that gets on your nerves after a while because you want them to take things seriously. So I do think we’re finding that really good middle to bring her character into some awesome growth opportunities.

Taylor: I agree and I think one of the other things I want to point out, speaking of growth or maybe stepping into your own, is probably a better way to put it, is when she wears both bangles at the end of the film. Think about what that did to Dar-Benn, putting both of them on. Dar-Benn literally, like, exploded. She flaked off like her whole body like she was holding the Power Stone girl couldn’t handle it. Kamala puts them on, and she’s like, I was born for this. Let’s not ever forget that, because you will then underestimate Kamala Khan and that is a dangerous game to play. Did she just step into the big leagues of powerful characters? I mean, she held her own with Captain Marvel. Not that she was fighting Captain Marvel, but she was in lockstep and key with Carol Danvers, tied in our book, we’ve agreed on this tie for the most powerful character in the universe. So you got Carol, you got Wanda. Do we need to add Kamala Khan to the top of that list? I mean, I don’t know that she’s in like top three, but I would say she’s probably top five. She held two, not one, two Quantum bands and didn’t bat an eye and then she used them and didn’t even there wasn’t a hair out of place. Kamala Khan let’s not underestimate this girl because she will destroy you in the best kind of way.

Katie: Yeah and on that note, just to quickly say we are going to do a whole episode on the whole, like a whole other universe is bleeding into ours and the Quantum bands and everything else. We’re going to spend a whole other episode devoted to that so don’t feel like we’re going to gloss right past that because we’re only glossing past it at the present, it will have its own episode, I promise. But yeah, I have to say that was impressive. I do have a random question, which is where’d the second band go because she put the second one on, they did what they had to do to close the hole, and then when you see at the end of the movie, she’s not wearing the second one, and I noticed that immediately. So did I miss a conversation or a one-off where they were like, we’re going to take this somewhere? Or was that not explained?

Taylor: Is it once she gets off the ship, that she wasn’t wearing the second one? The spaceship?

Katie: I do not remember once she got off the ship, but it’s at the end when they’re at the house in Louisiana, she’s not wearing the second one because she goes to hug her mom and you could see she’s only wearing one.

Taylor: I would say they probably just keep it in a safe place because here’s my thing, we saw how powerful the Quantum bands are together. There are very few beings Kamala being one of them go girl that are strong enough to hold both of them at once. I actually thought and someone said this in my theater, I think Carol was wearing the second one.

Katie: Ohh, I didn’t even take notice.

Taylor: Yeah, I think there’s a scene when she walks around the plane. I swear I heard someone in my theater say that Carol was wearing the matching band. Which makes sense.

Katie: That would make sense.

Taylor: Yeah. I mean, with Wanda, I mean, technically, now Marvel says that Wanda’s dead. Okay, whatever.

Katie: BS, Kevin Feige, you just said she’ll be back.

Taylor: I also, just like there’s a Multiverse now, so it doesn’t even matter if she’s dead because if one Scarlet Witch dies, the next Wanda Maximoff could become the Scarlet Witch so it’s fine. But with Wanda currently, and I’m using air quotes here though you all can’t see me currently off the table, the two potentially two of the more powerful beings on the planet now are holding two of the most powerful relics on the planet, tied with Mr. Shang Chi.

Katie: Which we will also discuss in the other episode.

Taylor: Yeah, but again, two very powerful bands. It’s also, I think, smart to one, split them up, that’s a good call. You don’t want somebody to go in and BOGO, the most powerful bands in the universe, or two of the most powerful bands in the universe, but also then you’re splitting them up again amongst two very powerful ladies who can hold their own and protect their dang bangles. I also want to say it’s interesting to me that after Dar-Benn took the bangle off Kamala, she still had her powers.

Katie: I caught that too but then I was like, she’s a mutant so the bangles might enhance things, but I think at the end of the day, her actual power is at this point because we said that they were activated by the bangle. So I think they might help, they might enhance, the bangle is what allows her to travel through like time and space and stuff and we heard her mention that in the show or in the movie, a reference to what happened in the show but I think at the end of the day, her powers are still hers. I was curious, though, to see if that was going to happen.

Taylor: Yeah, I agree with your analysis for sure, but I think it’s important to point out because that I think is the first time we’ve actually seen her use her powers without the bangle. So again, we’re leaning into that mutant origin of hers and the fact that the powers are intrinsic to her and I think that is further enforced by the lines that we heard from both her and her mother when she says, I was born for this. That’s right because you’re born with your genes. You are born with your mutant gene and her mutant gene allows her to hold two Quantum bands, and channel this incredible light energy that she has. She’s incredible, I’m just gonna keep going back to it. Kamala Khan, is incredibly powerful and we’ll get to this, this is a whole nother episode too, don’t you worry but now playing the role of Nick Fury for the Young Avengers. So Kamala Khan, center of the Universe Question? Heck yes, sign me up. That’s a universe I want to live in.

Katie: All right, we’re ripping this Band-Aid because I’m tired of having it on. And as Taylor said, we’ll do a whole other episode on this specifically as well, deep diving it but we’re just going to react because let me tell you, I was texting Taylor, and as soon as my movie ended and I saw this and I was texting her, but she was in her movie and I was like, agh she can’t answer me, but I was freaking out because as soon as I saw the shadow of the bow, I was like, that’s my girl, Kate, my girl, Kate’s here. And then obviously I’m not going to lie when they panned over, I was like, I did not realize I was Kamala right away. I was like, who is in the chair? Just because my brain was so distracted by Lucky and Kate and I was just like my girls here and here we have Kamala recruiting her first ever Young Avengers buddy, and she makes a great little comment about her next recruit, which is Cassie Lang. And I just first off, I cannot wait to see Kate Bishop and Kamala Khan interact more on my screen. I think I’m going to lose it, I think I’m going to lose it.

Taylor: I think it may be the best thing we’ve ever seen. Don’t get me wrong, the Kate new Yelena scenes from Hawkeye are like top-tier. Like the type of scenes that I could watch over and over again and still make me laugh but I think we could replicate, if not supersede those with Kamala and Kate because they give the same vibe. They have each adopted an Avenger and said, you are now my pseudo parent and I love you and you are going to force me or I’m going to force you to take me with you everywhere you go. And the vibe is just so immaculate between the two of them that like when this Young Avengers team finally forms, I am just going to lose my mind. It’s going to be amazing. 

Katie: Well, how many times guys, have we done episodes on the Young Avengers? We have talked in random other episodes about the Young Avengers. We have done tally sheets, we have done blogs, we have literally done everything revolving around the Young Avengers asking, when the heck are we going to get them because all the chess pieces are here. Also, I have to give Kate some credit when she was like, I’m 23 because how many times did we say, isn’t that kind of weird? They’re not all like teenagers necessarily, and not that they all are in the comics, but I was like, we’re getting a little older with some of them. Especially considering they kind of said they implied Wanda was really young in Age of Ultron. Obviously, we know her age has been mucked with since because of the weird Vision stuff. Anyway, I am so excited and so happy to finally have something that we have been talking about endlessly, and endlessly for years now come to fruition. 

Taylor: And I would just like to say whatever producer told us that they had no plans for the Young Avengers, sir, you fooled nobody on this podcast. You fooled us not at all. We have been talking about it, we’ve been laying out rosters for you, and we have been throwing them into Kree/Skrull peace talks theories, which didn’t pay off, but still, it was important at the time and we were not thrown off our course. The other thing, because a conversation that Kate and I had while I was walking home was that we kind of nailed a little bit of this movie, and by a little bit, I mean, like we were like 80%, right, which for us is like really, really good. And I want to go back to that Cassie Lang thing that you mentioned, because I think there’s one other thing that I want to point out here and we’re going to like Katie said to a whole other episode on this, so I’m just going to say the one sentence and then we will debrief you all in a couple weeks whenever that episode comes out, we’re still working it out with some Loki stuff and we’ll get an updated schedule for you all, we promise. In the meantime, going back to Cassie Lang, there is a reason that Kamala name-dropped Cassie Lang, and the reason is that Cassie Lang knows one thing really, well she knows a few things, and I don’t want to minimize her. There’s one thing that I think is really important that Cassie Lang knows and you know what that is? The Quantum realm. You know what Kamala is really good at using? The Quantum bands. You know what we happen to have mentioned in an episode related to Quantumania when we were talking about debriefing all of it, we talked about Quantum/Nega bands. Yeah, we did and we brought that up months ago. So I just want to give us all the props and I’m going to eat so much dessert tonight because I am so proud of us. Also, my dinner was M&Ms because I ate it in a theater, but like, worth it.

Katie: Mine was popcorn so I get it.

Taylor: You know, sometimes you got to just do what you got to do but guys, I mean, like, very rarely do we get to be this right. Very rarely when we throw out stuff like that, does it actually pay off. But they said the word Quantum band and my body lit on fire. I was so excited. I just can’t. I can’t even and then, we’re going to talk about this another episode but the ramifications for the Multiverse and time/space travel like guys that episode is going to be insane. I just, this movie is so good. 

Katie: On a small, slight note, while we’re just talking about things we were right about, I also just want to throw out there that did I not say during Secret Invasion that I was like, oh I bet you they could be having talks with the other Skrull colony that’s up there and who do they happen to be having talks with? The other Skrull colony that was up there in space so I have to say I was very proud of that and saying that I didn’t think they were talking about our Skrulls. They were talking about other ones. Very proud to say I was right about that. Just had to throw that out there.

Taylor: And I’m sure we’ll do another episode about this down the road too, because we are rapidly approaching time on this one. But I want to say we got a lot of the Kree politics correct too and that is not easy to do because if you think about-.

Katie: We didn’t get a lot of Kree background, you just get a lot of random pieces about them.

Taylor: You get the Kree in 2014, then you get the Kree in 1990, what year is Captain Marvel? 1992, 93, somewhere in there.

Katie: Somewhere around there.

Taylor: Those are the two main movies where you see the Kree. Otherwise, they’re just mentioned here, mentioned there, you get a little bit if you Agents of SHIELD, which I think we’ve all established, is not this universe so that’s even more confusing when you layer that all in. So I’m really proud of us. We will probably throw that into another episode somewhere because I don’t think we really have time to go into all those nuances now but man, that was amazing. I’m really proud of us for that one too and I just guys, this movie, it’s so good. I’m just going to keep saying that because I am like on a high like I have not been in a really long time. I don’t know, maybe it’s also been a while since we’ve had a movie, but like, I really was vibing with this one.

Katie: Well, while we’re at it, I’m going to rip the other band-aid off my other arm. That end credit, the actual official end credit, because technically, Kamala’s was the end of the movie, which was a little weird, I will say there was a slight like-.

Taylor: Whiplash. 

Katie: It just was a weird thing. They could just have done the end credits that way. I don’t know why they just shoved it at the end of the movie. There was very little lead up but we have a universe with the X-Men.

Taylor: And this is going to get wrapped into our Multiverse episode and how this movie relates to the Multiverse and everything but I do want to say Katie and I have gone out on a limb. This is not 838. I know that we’ve seen Maria powered up in 838, but don’t forget that Maria got squished. 

Katie: Wanda came for her.

Taylor: She came for all of them and she bodied all of them.

Katie: I thought they weren’t scared of their little witch. Sorry, I just said it because she deserved to have the statue dropped on her, in that movie. That’s all I have to say.

Taylor: I’m not going to get behind that particular statement. I’m just going to state facts in that that Maria is dead.

Katie: Yeah.

Taylor: And they also happened to mention a bald man who usually is in a wheelchair and that bald man in a wheelchair commonly known as Professor X, he is also dead because Wanda literally killed him in his mind by breaking his physical neck. Not really sure how that worked, but it was horrifying so I’m not really going to analyze it. Anyway, both are dead.

Katie: It was pretty awesome. 

Taylor: Sure, that’s one way to look at it.

Katie: I mean, just as a Scarlet Witch fan, it was just like it was just very intense. I can’t get behind murder, but when Wanda does it, suddenly seems okay.

Taylor: Okay, well, that’s one way to look at it. That’s a take. It’s not a take that I share.

Katie: You would support Loki, so don’t even go there.

Taylor: Probably. I am wearing my Loki shirt. 

Katie: I’m wearing my Scarlet Witch sweatshirt.

Taylor: We don’t do video podcasts but we’re each wearing our respective villains slash not villain hero who is like a quasi-villain. So we are representing the quasi villains this evening but I say all this to say they’re not alive so that is not 838 friends. We have entered a new universe. We also saw Beast in this MCU for the first time. We all know we’ve seen Beast in a couple of iterations in the past. This is a different beast. We are not visiting the universes of the Fox X-Men. This is a different one and that’s all I’m going to say about that before we do a whole nother episode and we read articles and we read theories and we gather all the information for you, but that’s going to be another episode. Just want to point that out and put that theory out there. We’re putting a stake in the sand right now, not 838. We will come back to you with more at a later time.

Katie: Yeah, the only thing I have to say is this Beast gave me Professor Hulk vibes and it was very weird. Like I was very thrown off.

Taylor: Yeah. I think, though, honestly, Professor Hulk, that is the Beast character. That’s how the Beast character is.

Katie: No, I know it. Just because we had Professor Hulk first in the MCU, it was just very weird to kind of see almost the same thing, you know what I’m saying? It just it just felt weird.

Taylor: For sure, yeah, I definitely think that in many ways, the Professor Hulk character, I know that that character I’m pretty sure exists in the comics, so it’s not that he is the Beast of the Avengers but I will say I think in some ways the way he’s portrayed in Endgame took a page out of Beast’s portrayal’s book, if that makes sense. It is a very similar vibe, I just think and I don’t know a ton about Professor Hulk as a character, but knowing a little bit more about Beast in his portrayal and some of the other movies, I think that that’s very how he is in this film, in a few short moments we saw him, was very in line with kind of how he’s been portrayed in the past, so I wasn’t weirded out by it but I do see the similarities now that you’ve pointed them out.

Katie: Yeah, I just wanted to say that. But the last thing I just want to touch on is our villain and I just got to say, and I said this to Taylor earlier as well, every time Dar-Benn was on the screen, I wanted to shove off her face in sand, but she did such a good job at the same time of making you feel for her because, at the end of the day, Captain Marvel made her. She was a villain made from a hero, I don’t want to say be reckless because I don’t think that was the intention of Captain Marvel, but she was a villain made from a hero’s mistakes, from a forgotten world, really, because Captain Marvel flew off and left Hala to be whatever it was going to be. I think at the end of the day, that in itself always makes a good villain but then you see her with her people. You see the intentions of everything she’s doing is desperately trying to help her people and bring their planet essentially back to life. I’m not mad at the villain. I thought she did a great job. Like I said, though, she also did a great job of being the most annoying character that the screen, every time she was there, I was like, oh my God, just down her already. She’s so frustrating but I get it.

Taylor: And I know we always say there’s two pinnacles, really one pinnacle A and then there’s like second place. Obviously, first place being our guy Killmonger, the best villain of all time, probably never, ever going to be surpassed. You go Michael B. Jordan you absolute king. But then, of course, Christian Bale as Gott the God Butcher but what do they have in common? You understand their motivation, right? I think Killmonger went about it the wrong way but you got why he was angry. You got why he was doing what he was doing. Same thing with Gorr and I think Dar-Benn deserves now to be in that conversation as well. Do I agree with her methods? No. Do I think stealing resources from other planets specifically to get back at one singular person is the right way to go about it? No, of course not. However, to your point, she clearly was doing it for the safety, health, and the prosperity of her people and was so driven by that it was yes, it was tinged with revenge. Well, I should say the execution was tinged with revenge, but ultimately it was an altruistic motive and I think that is what makes her captivating as a villain, because even though, again, I don’t agree with her methods, I can get behind it and say, yeah, well, I see why you’re doing that. I see that you are trying to reinvigorate your planet and I think that in and of itself is a noble pursuit. The execution is what turns her from what would be a hero to a villain but again, that makes her a more interesting, complex character versus, of course, we’ve seen those villains who just want world domination or like that guy from Iron Man Two who’s just annoyed at Tony’s dad. There have been some really one-note villains. I would not call Dar-Benn a one-note villain. I would not put her in that category. I would say she belongs more in a conversation with a Killmonger and a Gorr, and I think that one thing that I’m really enjoying with Marvel is I think that as we’ve gone on and as we’ve seen the Killmonger blueprint and how successful that is, I think they’re starting to make their villains more captivating and more compelling more regularly and I think that’s very, very important and also something that makes me more excited for the movies. I think even Gravik is a good recent example from a show. I think that they’re more and more they’re trying to make villains their own characters versus just an adversary for the hero and that just makes for better storytelling. So I think keep doing that Marvel. That is what adds that extra spice to the movie. It’s what makes it more interesting, more compelling, and more fun to watch.

Katie: Yeah, I agree. Like I said, she played the part well in the sense you still didn’t like her and I think that that’s the one thing that I can’t speak for Gorr because it’s been a while. I’ve only seen Love and Thunder once. But as somebody who’s seen Black Panther at least ten times, I can speak for Killmonger in saying the entire time he’s on that screen, there’s a part of me that roots for him because I get it. I see him so well from the perspective he’s coming from that I’m like, you know what? Yeah, go ahead, do what you got to do and so I think the only difference with her, for me, that takes her down just like a half a point. She’s not quite on the next tier down, so she almost makes her own tier, is I am feeling sympathetic towards you. I feel why you’re doing it, but you’re still a villain at the end of the day and you show that. You’re still a bad person and you make that clear. Even how she treats the Skrulls you could see it. I think that’s the only thing with her but she did a great job at executing that. I thought she was a genuinely good villain. I’m glad they didn’t muddy it. Sometimes the villain can get a little weird in some of these and I’m glad they just kept it focused on Dar-Benn and her story with Captain Marvel and why she’s doing what she’s doing. I think she had two different motives. I think she found a way to work them together and you understood her and so I really enjoyed her. I thought, is it Zawe?

Taylor: Yes, Zawe Ashton.

Katie: Yeah. I thought she did an amazing job here.

Taylor: Yeah, definitely a great villain, great character, really well executed, by Zawe, a villain to keep in our top villain conversation. I do agree with you, I don’t think she’s quite at the level of definitely not Killmonger because he is in a league of his own. Again, Michael B. Jordan was the best there ever was. But, you know, I definitely think if we’re talking a top three villain conversation that I think she rounds out that three. Killmonger, Gorr, Dar-Benn and I think just well-written, well executed, someone that you can get behind but I like what you were saying about still presenting as a villain, right? You still don’t like her and I think you’re right, that is what separates her. I think I don’t remember Gorr as well either, I also have seen Black Panther way more times than I’ve seen Love and Thunder. But I think she probably is still behind Gorr for me in that one, because, again, like you’re thinking about his daughter and he’s killing gods, so he’s not killing regular people or putting innocents necessarily in jeopardy like Dar-Benn is. I don’t want to say that gods are or are not innocent because you don’t know what they’ve done. You don’t know their backstory, but they’re incredibly powerful beings that should be able to hold their own. There is a little bit of a difference there, too, of like specifically with Gorr, he’s fighting these incredibly powerful beings who have lorded over regular people. Dar-Benn is literally putting regular people in jeopardy and choosing to say, my Kree people are more important than these people because these people who I’m stealing resources from, align themselves with Captain Marvel, therefore, they are just as much my enemy. And I think that lack of empathy for other people, especially regular people who can’t fight and defend themselves, that, to your point, really does kind of separate her from the other two in terms of definitely presenting very villainy, for sure.

Katie: Yeah and I think that still does it tells the story the way it needs to. And I like I said, she did a great job. Big day for that couple because as we all know, her husband.

Taylor: Are they married? I think they’re just engaged. 

Katie: Her fiancee.

Taylor: Yeah, I don’t think they’re married.

Katie: Whatever, they’re going to get married. Her fiancee is also having his season/possibly series finale tonight. A big day for that couple. They made history as being the only couple who had the same night that their stuff was premiering. So go them and also go her because she had a great performance and I just had to throw that out there because I felt like it would be unfair to not talk about the villain of the movie, which she did a great job.

Taylor: Definitely and I think, one other episode or we’ll toss it into another episode. We have a few things to figure out coming off of, you know, especially we’ll reevaluate after we watch Loki tonight, but we’re definitely going to do some episodes to break things out more. I know I want to talk a lot more about Kree and Skrull and politics and how that all plays into everything because that’s super interesting. And I think we’ve seen how those kinds of interspecies conflicts can really have larger ramifications than just war within space. I mean, we literally blew a hole in space-time because these two groups hate each other so much and all that so definitely going to talk about that, TBD. We’ll get a schedule out for you guys in the next few days, but this is a great movie. There’s so much to talk about and I know we couldn’t talk about all of it today, but worry not. We are going to dive way more into some of these other topics coming up. I think we’re going to call it a wrap on our immediate reactions. We’re going to go watch Loki, record that, debrief on both of them, try to come off this high eventually, and get some sleep but it has been a great night so far, and excited for round two.

Katie: Oh yeah, me too. As Taylor said, stick with us because our very next episode is going to be Loki reactions to Episode Six.

Taylor: And with that, remember to make sure that you are following on your podcast platform of choice so you get all of the subsequent episodes or notifications for all of the subsequent episodes like Loki Episode Six reactions and all of our breakdowns for future topics related to Captain Marvel and The Marvels and this fantastic movie that we all just saw. You can also check out the website for updates, the schedule and everything is on there as well. So once we get that all finalized, that’ll be a great place for you to check out and know what’s coming up. And last but not least, if you would like to support the show, you can do that on our homepage where we have some affiliate links for you all to check out.

Katie: Also give us a follow on Twitter at SisAssembledPod and Instagram and Threads at SistersAssembled to keep up with the show and all the cool things that we’re doing. Just give us a follow on whichever one you prefer or both, because why not? And I already said it, but stay with us because Loki reactions to Episode Six, the finale of season/maybe series we’re going to find out in our reactions are going to react to whatever we find out here for the next episode so stick right here as Marvel just blew your mind so let’s talk about it.