Transcript

Taylor: Hey there and welcome back to Sisters Assembled. We have a great show for you today because guess what? We are getting our first new content of 2024. I almost said 2022, wow, here we go. We’re getting our first new content of 2024 in Echo, which is coming out just this week, dropping all at once, which is a new thing for Marvel. So got a lot of newness here, but excited to dive into this one because I think it’s going to be a really good show and definitely my most anticipated of the year. So without further ado, I’m going to kick it over to Katie to get us started. 

Katie: You gave me flashbacks when you were like, I almost said, 2022. I was like, please don’t take us back there, thank you very much. I am excited for Echo. It is one of the few live-action properties we’re getting at least out of Marvel. Obviously, we know we have a lot of Sony stuff coming out, but it is one of the very few live-action shows we are actually getting this year, and I’m excited. It’s coming fast. I mean, to your point, it’s not only just all dropping at once, but it’s next week or at this point, a few days by the time this recording comes out, and we just finished What If? Season Two. So a lot is happening very quickly but I’m intrigued, I think this is the best word I can do about this series. This was definitely not one I think going into I was excited about. I’m going to be honest, I even think when we first heard it announced, I believe when Hawkeye was still doing its six-episode release, that six-week period, they had already announced the show. At the time, I still kind of was like, okay, not really sure this character needed this own series, to be honest, but I have to say, I don’t know if it’s the cuts of the trailers or whatever, but so far everything I’ve been seeing, I mean, I am really excited for what is going to come from this. 

Taylor: Yeah. I mean, I don’t even know where to begin with this show. There are so many elements that are really driving the hype train for me. I think just to start with the tone, you know, this is so different from everything that we’ve seen in the MCU specifically thus far. It’s dark, it’s gritty, and it looks a little bit more like an FX show than a Marvel show. 

Katie: Oh yeah, it looks dark. I mean, like watching one of the trailers my Instagram was working on, like overdrive, trying to cut out and be, like sensitive content, and then it’d be like, okay, we’re back to normal. Then it’d be like sensitive content and I was like, whoa, okay. I’m not sure what I’m about to watch, but it’s going to be a lot. 

Taylor: Yeah, and I’m not going to diss the MCU. Obviously, I’m a huge fan, but I do love that they’re finally moving in this direction. I think it’s one of the places they haven’t gone yet. We’ve seen comedy, we’ve seen romances, we’ve seen epic, Shakespearean, Thor things, space things. We’ve seen, there was a musical number in The Marvels. So we’ve seen some different experimentation, some of it worked, and some of it hasn’t. But I think dark, gritty, and violent is not a place that the MCU has gone yet, and I’m actually really excited for them to take this tone. And I think, you know, not that we’re trying to like, please the haters, but I think in some ways, the people who are really critical of the MCU can look at this, see that it’s at the caliber of maybe an FX show and say, okay, maybe not all superhero stuff is this fantastical stuff where you’re on a blue screen or a green screen or whatever. Some of it can be this really grounded story that could be a regular show on probably not network television because a little too much for that but like on a cable network, you know? So I love the tone. I think it’s going to bring a lot of interesting vibes is the wrong word, but a lot of interesting vibes to the MCU that we just don’t have yet.

Katie: Yeah, I think it’ll be an interesting take. To your point, we don’t really do a lot of this in the MCU. And I mean, we all know I’m a grounded gal, and as much as I love people like Wanda and Loki and I do, I love them to death and I love the direction their characters have gone. I mean, at the end of the day, I like the nitty-gritty of getting in the street. And I think to me, and obviously, this is all about Echo, but to me, I’m thinking, what doors does this open? Because I’m sorry, but I know characters like Bucky can be violent, and we have never gotten to see that because even in his Winter Soldier era, I mean, it was cut for Marvel. And that is obviously like I mean, let’s be honest, he threw somebody through a helicopter and they literally got shredded and you don’t even fully realize that happened because it’s just kind of glossed over. Obviously, had it been made in the way this show is looking to be made, that would have been gruesome to watch. And so I see like, what doors could this open? Could we see I mean I think a big one is the Thunderbolts being rumored to be rated R. Is that the direction we get to go finally? And also, thank God I’m finally old enough because like, what if this had been me when I was like this 16-year-old fan and then I couldn’t watch movies because they were rated R or whatever, and you have to take your parents and like, I wasn’t going to do that. But I mean, I think this really could open some cool doors and this is a good way to do it. You’re bringing back, obviously, Kingpin from the Netflix series, Daredevil is making his next return, which is great because that’ll be ahead of Born Again. You’re bringing back these elements, these characters from already a very nitty-gritty show, and it’s kind of like a half step, right? We’re not going the full one and then going right to two. We’re getting a nice little 1.5 to step up to, okay, in the future we could get some really gruesome crap in Marvel. 

Taylor: Yeah, what you were saying brought up so many things for me so I’m going to try to go in a logical order. But first, I love what you were saying about the idea of this kind of being a doorway into a different level of content, right? Going into gritty, dark, into the side of superheroes that, look, I don’t give DC a lot of credit, but think about the Chris Nolan trilogy, right? That’s dark, it’s gritty and it’s hard to watch sometimes, but they’re fantastic. And not to say that Marvel stuff isn’t good, but it has a very much lighter tone in comparison. I love that they’re experimenting now with the darker side of superheroes because it does exist. There’s some horrible stuff that happens in the comics, and it’s stuff that we have not yet seen adapted. Even just the way that some of these characters are taken from the comics to the movies. To your point, the Winter Soldier, Daredevil is different because he was given that treatment, but so many characters are almost neutered is the wrong term but in terms of their violence, they’re made a little bit more palatable and I think some of that takes away from their story. So I’m excited that, to your point, we might get to see these harsher sides of some of these characters instead of just seeing the oh, right superhero version, or even if they’re like in recovery, like the Winter Soldier, he’s still very much not as gritty, dark, violent as he should be. So those transitions seem less aggressive. 

Katie: No, 100% and I think I kind of like you calling them neutered, to be honest, because that is what they are. I think it takes away a lot from some of these characters and that’s why people, I don’t want to say people are kind of like rolling their eyes, but I think people gloss over some of them. Winter Soldier is a great example. Black Widow is a great example because she is nowhere to the caliber of some of what she is in the comics because they don’t allow her to be due to kind of confining everything of the MCU into this lighter tone, even when there are those serious moments and stuff, we weren’t really getting the graphic violence of anything that we could have gotten regarding her, and everything was always implied, it wasn’t shown, I think is the best way to put that. 

Taylor: Yeah, it was PG-13ified, right? And now we’re not worried about it. 

Katie: Right, exactly, and a lot of characters, a lot of ground-level characters especially, I think, were minimized almost in their roles because you weren’t allowed to see all the right aspects of them. And so again, I’m excited. Obviously, we don’t have Nat’s Black Widow, but we do have Yelena’s. And somewhere floating around is a whole slew of Black Widows that we have yet to know where they are. So we do have some characters, even Hawkeye, to me. I mean, he might be retired at this point, but there are a lot of characters who I think are pretty grounded, who might be able to kind of get this more interesting step up into their character and make them a little bit more interesting for those who don’t find them already so.

Taylor: Yeah, and I think that brings up the next point, which is this is the first show under the spotlight banner, which is really focused on these more grounded, kind of more centralized stories, meaning that they’re not necessarily to further the wider MCU’s narrative. And I think what you were saying about giving more power almost to these grounded heroes because if you think about it right, someone like, oh, Wanda, she’s not going to resort to violence because she’s going to make you go crazy first. She’s going to warp your reality before she ever has to lay a finger on you. But someone who like a Black Widow, like an Echo, like a Hawkeye, like a Bucky, Bucky’s a little different because he’s a super soldier. But like the first three, especially, their skills lie within hand-to-hand combat. So if you’re PG-13ifing them, you are thereby minimizing their skill because they’re not even showing half of how lethal they could be. Now, we’re going to get to see Echo at full strength, where we’ve never gotten to see a Black Widow or a Hawkeye really go full-strength TV-MA on somebody’s booty because they were made to be at a certain level in terms of ratings. So I think you’re right and I’m excited about the spotlight banner because I think what this show is heralding in and in that banner is tighter storytelling when it comes to the grounded heroes, less worried about the larger Multiverse of it all, which is great because these heroes, sometimes that’s a little bit of a stretch, but also giving them the opportunity to really shine in their own stories and I think that’s one of the things that I’m most excited about this show, too, is just the opportunity that it’s going to bring for characters like Echo, who have a little bit more subtle powers. 

Katie: Yeah, and it’s not just her, she’s the lead of this and I’m intrigued to watch her because I do think she was interesting in Hawkeye. I just at the time, I thought maybe not interesting enough to bring that whole story into her own show. But again, you have now the furthering of the Kingpin storyline, and you have the furthering of a Daredevil storyline that’s going to already be getting another continuation afterward. So and obviously we saw him in She-Hulk, I think clearly we know this is going to be a very different tone and very different perspective from him than we got in that show, but I think those big three alone make the show a very interesting thing because it’s like, what direction could this go in the long run? Because your point is not necessarily going to add to the Multiverse, because that’s really not what the storylines focused on and it doesn’t need to be and not everything they put out needs to be, that’s definitely for sure. But it does make me interested to see more of this ground level, this underlying, we always say ABC plots and this feels like that C plot that kind of has always existed. If you think about The Falcon and Winter Soldier, Hawkeye, I mean, these have all existed, but they haven’t gone too far because we’ve been stuck in this bigger realm of Multiverses and everything else. Well, this is now a show that’s furthering that C plot, and I’d like to see where it takes us.

Taylor: For sure, for sure. Before we get into where the show might take us, I do want to take a quick step back and give some rapid-fire facts on Echo from the comics as a character, so that we have the context before we start talking about what might happen in this show. So first of all, and I think what is one of the most interesting things about her, considering we’ve been talking a lot about that, about Black Widow, is that she actually has powers very similar to Taskmaster, that she’s able to basically mimic or echo someone else’s movements. She is deaf, and she’s also Native American, which is amazing because the actress that they cast is both Native American and deaf. Great representation, I think, for both of those communities and I do also want to point out we saw another indigenous hero very recently. So it’s a big moment, I think, for indigenous superheroes, and I’m all here for it. I love the way that Marvel has really embraced the community in terms of really working collaboratively with them to make it real, to make it an accurate representation of these communities and of these cultures. I think that is something that’s super interesting, and I’m excited to see those cultural aspects really come through in the show. So that’s definitely an important part of her identity as well. She also, interestingly enough, has a romance with Hawkeye and Moon Knight and is interested in Daredevil so there’s a lot there. I’m sure we can talk about some of these. 

Katie: We’ll be unpacking that. 

Taylor: Yeah, no, I just think it’s definitely interesting, considering who we’ve got in the MCU on the board, for sure so we’ll talk about that. She does in the comics take on the Ronin moniker, which is interesting considering all that we saw in the Hawkeye show. She actually takes on the Phoenix mantle as well, which if anybody here is a follower of any of the X-Men movies or comics, you know Dark Phoenix is a very famous storyline, same entity. So that’s fascinating that she comes from this more grounded world, and ends up the embodiment of the Phoenix force. And the last thing that I do want to point out that is interesting because it has parallels to the Hawkeye show, is that, of course, in Hawkeye, Kingpin tells her that Hawkeye, Ronin at the time, is the one who killed her father, which he was but Kingpin, obviously, as we know, had a hand in that. In the comics, Kingpin kills her father but blames Daredevil, so I thought that’s an interesting little adjustment because we’ve actually seen that storyline come to life, just swapping out one character for the other in who is the scapegoat for Kingpin. 

Katie: So that was a lot of really good information. I kind of want to make sure we run through it all in its own way of how it pertains to the show. I want to start with, and I kind of think I was saying this during I don’t know if it was our full What If? reactions or if it was specifically when we were reacting to each episode and it was the Kahorri episode. I did say, you know, personally, I think Marvel does representation very well as far as different communities. I listed a few, I went on a spiel a little bit about it, and I’m really excited because I don’t think I anticipated this show to bring her heritage in quite as much, just because from what we saw in Hawkeye and granted 100% Hawkeye was clearly not about her. It was not even named after her like we knew who the main character was. But I just don’t think I anticipated how much they were going to lean into it in her show just because I don’t know what I was expecting to come from this show. We don’t, we’ll get to where those characters kind of let off from Hawkeye because obviously, that’s going to be a big thing for this, whatever comes from the show. I am interested in seeing how that comes all together because we definitely in one of it’s one of the clips or trailers or something of that nature. We do see her talking to other Choctaw and she’s pretty much saying they’re telling her, don’t bring a war here and she’s saying there needs to be a queen. And so it is going to culminate and really clearly bring in her heritage and everything so I’m very excited for that bit. It’s to your point between Kahorri and her, I think this is an amazing time for Native Americans. I’m very excited and I think their culture is beautiful, so I’m beyond ecstatic to see what we get. 

Taylor: Yeah, and I think what’s really cool too is they’re not both from the same tribe. Kahorri is a Mohawk, and Echo is from the Choctaw tribe. And so also within Native American and Indigenous people representation, they’re showing the diversity and showing that indigenous cultures are not a monolith, which I think is awesome. And I love that we’re getting these two characters so close together because then we can learn about the differences between the two just through how they’re shown in their respective appearances and I think that’s really cool.

Katie: Yeah, I couldn’t agree more. And then I got I’m trying to like mentally go through the list, the points you’ve made. One of them I know you were talking about kind of her abilities. What I want to discuss is actually not the abilities we know her to have, but more of some of the rumored things that we’ve been hearing and it actually it hasn’t been recent. It was probably a good three, or four months ago that this was coming out. It was being talked about that Maya would not stay a street-level type fighter, and there would actually be almost and I’m not going to get my facts right on this, I’m going to be honest, because it was so long ago and I kind of forgot about it because of What If? and everything else. So much happened in the meantime but it was supposed to be something, it leaned into her heritage, I do know that, but it was something of a mystical sort of thing, and it actually caught a lot of fans off guard going into it. I think a lot of people were not super excited that they were changing this ground-level character who, you know, her big thing is her ability to fight and the way she is able to mimic people.

And they were kind of turning her into this mystic being a little bit more, which is interesting when you bring up the Phoenix storyline because, well, there you go a little bit. I do think a lot of people were anticipating something like that happening so quickly to a character we only just met, and now I don’t know if that’s going to happen in this show at this point. We have five episodes to find out. It didn’t look like anything in the trailers like that was happening, but trailers are obviously misleading. I do want to bring it up because that was definitely something that came around the show and was kind of a hot moment for a while. 

Taylor: Interesting. I definitely missed that, but I’m glad you brought it up because I am excited to talk about it. I think what that brings up for me is kind of parallel with the idea of the Phoenix Force, and where she is in the comics, or where she went in the comics with that, because the article I was reading where they talked about that, they were like, they’re never going to do that in the MCU. I don’t know that I agree that they’ll never do it in the MCU, but I do agree with you in that they’re not going to do it in this show. I think it’s too early. I think we need to get to know her first. I also think in a more nuts and bolts kind of way, she’s under the spotlight banner. Phoenix Force does not belong under the spotlight banner. It definitely doesn’t fit the vibe so I think for now we’re going to keep her ground level. Is she going to do something like what you were saying in the future? Very possibly. Could she take on the Phoenix Force like in the comics in the future? Also very possible. Is she going to do that in five episodes? I’m going to go out on a limb here and say no, but I do think it’s interesting to think about in the future, or how this show might set up that trajectory for her.

Katie: Yeah, it was definitely and like I said, I am not going to get the facts right with it because I truly don’t remember it. I do know I covered it for one of our newsletters just talking about Echo as a whole, and that was one of the things coming out about it, but I can’t remember all the details. Again, it might not even happen in the show, but it was something that kind of came out and it seemed like it was kind of throwing people off. And the show obviously, I think already has some different thoughts, I guess is the best way to put it about people and their levels of anticipation for it. So just wanted to throw it out there. Otherwise, though, I’m ready for some great fighting. That’s kind of my favorite realm of anything. As much as I love those superpowered beings, I do love a good fight, a good hand-to-hand combat. It’s just in my nature as a martial artist, I really enjoy watching those kinds of fights. Then you brought up love interests, and I just I can’t ignore this. Obviously, it’s interesting because we actually have the characters you listed in the MCU, but clearly they’re not probably options as far as love interests for various reasons. Hawkeye being the first one I remember, well, he’s like solidly 20 years older than her and married, so that would be a little weird personally. Then you brought up Moon Knight, and I just think he needs to be alone with his three personalities.

Taylor: Well, don’t forget, he also has Layla. He is divorced, but also, like, still in love with his ex-wife. Even though I think he killed her dad, was that the premise of that show? 

Katie: I don’t remember if I’m being honest, but regardless of that relationship, my guy needs to figure out, he needs to go to couples therapy for the three that are living inside of him, and then we can talk about being in a real relationship so not really thinking this is his moment to shine. And then lastly Daredevil, who obviously makes the show, he will be in it. In the comics, she is initially introduced in a Daredevil comic because she is doing the bidding of Kingpin, and that’s a big Daredevil, obviously also a Spider-Man villain. So it would be strange because we’ve obviously already seen him with She-Hulk. Maybe he just likes superpowered individuals, but also, I feel like this version of Maya is on the younger side, and I just maybe I’m wrong. I’m really bad at looking at the ages of characters. And obviously, then you have Wanda, who nobody knows her age, and Marvel added ten years to her randomly at some point. So, you know, I don’t really know how old she is, it just feels like a weird dynamic. Maybe in the comics that worked, I’m not sure I really see it for the show. Also, does she need a love interest? No, but could always be interesting because we don’t have a lot of current MCU couples. 

Taylor: Yeah, I am aligned with you on Hawkeye and Moon Knight, though I do think Moon Knight would be interesting because she clearly has a penchant for violence, and so does Moon Knight so they do have some things in common, namely, they like kicking butt. But when it comes to Matt Murdock slash Daredevil, I could see that happening for one specific reason, which is there’s no Karen Page in the MCU right now. So for anybody who watched the Daredevil show or I should say for anybody who didn’t, his main love interest in those three seasons is Karen Page. The actress who played Karen has not been listed as being a part of the new reboot Born Again. 

Katie: Yeah, I’m pretty sure they were saying that she’s one that I don’t want to say it was confirmed, but it was like leaning very closely to confirm that she would not be in it. 

Taylor: Yeah, I think they also said that Foggy is not going to be in it.

Katie: I think so too.

Taylor: Which makes me really sad because I just realized because I watched Mockingjay Part Two for the first time ever, he plays Pollux, the Avox who leads them through the tunnels.

Katie: Wait, I did know that but I only just learned it like two weeks ago. 

Taylor: Yeah so I was just like, oh my God, it’s Foggy, but it’s also Pollux and then they were like, not going to bring him back and I was like, no. But anyway, not having Karen I think opens that up. I know he did have his thing with She-Hulk, but they are a couple in the comics. They are also on two different coasts. Daredevil is a Hell’s Kitchen man. He’s a New York man. She’s in L.A., and bi-coastal relationships are difficult, who knows? I just want to say that is probably the most likely one I don’t think is going to happen in this show. If it does happen, it would be something that maybe you lay the groundwork in this show. They start to build trust. They see each other as partners to accomplish a goal, maybe it’s fighting Kingpin, we’ll get to that whole relationship in a second because that’s clearly the crux of the show. But I could see their kind of maybe starts as a begrudging collaboration, then builds trust, and then perhaps in his show, we see her, then make an appearance where that morphs into something more. Do I think it needs to happen? No. Is it possible, though? Very much. 

Katie: I mean, I’m not going to lie, I wouldn’t be against it. Later, obviously not now, but I wouldn’t be against seeing it kind of happen. I mean, to be honest, I think Marvel also sorely lacks romance. 

Taylor: Agreed. 

Katie: And we’ve had some of our definite, important ones like obviously Wanda and Vision, and that’s straight out of comics. But, you know, I think it would be cool to see some of those storylines because a lot of the comics do have a lot of different relationships. I mean, literally, Wanda and Steve are together at some point. There’s a lot that happens and I’m not saying some of these need to be explored, but there are a lot of relationships that I feel like maybe we’ve gotten hinted at and then we don’t really see come true, or they just don’t really ever flesh them out. I think Wanda and Vision to me was one of the rare ones we actually got to see a good bit of. Peter and Gamora, we did get to see them a good bit until her dad murdered her. And then Tony and Pepper are a great example. We have seen a few, but not really a lot. I mean, the Steve and Sharon thing fizzled out. We had one weird movie of that, or a movie and a half of that. We don’t really do relationships in the MCU, and I would kind of like to see them come to fruition, especially if they’re comic-book-accurate. It’s always more fun, I think. 

Taylor: Yeah, and now I want to pivot from romantic relationships to probably the most important relationship in the show, which I think is central to really everything, which is, of course, the one between Echo and Kingpin. As we have seen in many of the trailers, he’s considered her uncle growing up. They have a really strong bond. He clearly in his own Kingpin way, loves her very much. And the last time we saw them together, she shot him in the face. And then we see the trailers and they’re talking about war. He has a whole monologue. You want war? Let’s war basically. Is he talking to her? I don’t know that could be one of the many misleading things about it. But that relationship is really going to drive this show, I think and so it’s definitely something I want to dive into a little more. 

Katie: Well, I want to start by saying, how did he live? Because last I checked, she doesn’t miss her mark and if you got shot in the face I feel just a thought, like that’s not usually one you come back from pretty easily. I have to be honest, I feel maybe it wasn’t, it could have been the first few trailers, I don’t think they showed him with the eyepatch over, but I know some of the newer he has had it on. I was honestly starting to wonder when does this take place for a while because I was like, what are the chances that this doesn’t take place after Hawkeye and it’s before? And then they started showing him obviously with the eyepatch and I was like, okay, he just lived, which we all thought he would. But I still don’t understand the logistics of how.

Taylor: Yeah, see, here’s the thing that I remember about Kingpin from the Daredevil show, which I have to imagine they’re going to bring this element of him forward, which is he is very, shall we say, durable. He definitely takes some hits. He has a lot of things happen to him in the show. I mean, don’t get me wrong, he doles out hurt like nobody’s business, but he definitely takes some hits himself and he can take a hit. Now a bullet is a little different than a hit, but I think just we saw his strength and we saw some of that durability even in Hawkeye. I think that it’s almost hinting to me he’s not a superhuman. He’s not a super soldier, but he does, in my opinion, I don’t know if the comics bear this out, but in my opinion, the version of Kingpin that we’ve seen is a slightly enhanced individual in that he is stronger than the average person, and that he is durable is the only word I can think of, he is more durable. So whether that allows him to survive the bullet wound, sure, maybe, you know, knowing that she was conflicted, maybe she also gave him just a flesh wound. I mean, I think that’s also a possibility. This man was someone who she loved, someone who protected her, someone who helped raise her. So I’m sure there’s some conflict in there, even though she’s so angry because he took away her father. I think that’s also a possibility we have to entertain. 

Katie: That’s very true. Like I said, I think we all went into it knowing, well, they didn’t just kill Kingpin because they just brought him into the MCU for .5 seconds, and what a waste. I also think they would have had rioting had that been the truth, if I’m being honest.

Taylor: Especially because that was right when No Way Home came out and they just brought back Daredevil and everyone was like, oh my God. 

Katie: Well, and they didn’t recast, purposefully but I think had they recast him, nobody would have really given a crap the same way that it’s like you just brought the same guy back, and then you just brought the same Daredevil back from the Netflix series. Why would you bring him in to waste him? I think the MCU would have had a big problem with fans and their reception of that, but their relationship is definitely interesting. As I was saying before. I mean, in the comics, the MCU so far is following the story very similarly to the comics, but she does do Kingpin’s bidding. She’s raised like his daughter, essentially and she obviously has a turncoat moment in the comics. We’ve kind of already seen that happen so that’s not really going, I mean, we might have flashbacks because there have been some clips, in my opinion, that are kind of questionable as to where she stands. But, I mean, shooting him in the face feels pretty turncoat to me and like, she’s already decided that she’s not standing behind him anymore. Just my opinion, but I do think she’s going to be pretty conflicted during the show because at the end of the day, she doesn’t have her father anymore. He is the closest to the father figure she has and probably the family she has. And to be quite honest, we’ve already seen a clip of her fighting Daredevil. So, obviously, again, things are very misleading when you only have about three minutes if that person is out of the picture, but clearly, they’re not 100% on the same side from the get-go. 

Taylor: Yeah and I think what’s interesting about how you were saying, you didn’t realize that the show was going to play so much into her cultural heritage. I think what’s interesting about the idea of her kind of going home and embracing that is that she’s almost trying to go back to her roots and figure out who she is, outside of what Kingpin made her and outside of his influence. So I think that’s really interesting and I think we’re going to see that theme throughout the show as she kind of battles between what Kingpin made her, the idea that she comes to the Choctaw Nation and is like time for a queen, because who do you think taught her that mindset? Kingpin. So she’s going to have the two sides of her kind of warring, where we have a more peaceful people in the Choctaw, where she’s going to bring the violence that she has grown up with in Kingpin. Those are going to clash but I think they’re also going to help her heal and also find herself outside of the violence and outside of the war that’s really a lot of what she’s known because of who her uncle and then father figure were. 

Katie: Yeah, it’ll be interesting because I like your point that she sort of goes back to her roots to figure out who she really is. Actually, you said it earlier, she’s very similar to Taskmaster, and obviously, Taskmaster in the MCU is very different than their comic book counterpart, especially main storyline wise, the abilities were the same, but really, they’re very similar characters in the MCU itself, sort of both made into weapons by those that supposedly loved them. Now coming out of that, they have to figure out who they are outside of being a weapon and being the person to go do the bidding in place of what they thought was love pretty much. If I did this, this made you know him happy and this was what he did and this is why he loved me, because I made him happy. I was doing everything he wanted me to do, and I think Taskmaster suffered that, obviously with her father being Dreykov, making her into the weapons she was and then Kingpin out here also making Maya into the weapon, she is in a different sense. Using her for her abilities and having a really skewed idea of what somebody loving her looks like. So going to her heritage and going back to that and finding her roots somewhere in there, I think could be a very interesting character development just across the board. 

Taylor: I think based on what we’ve seen with her father, she understood the idea of unconditional love. He so clearly loved her. He wanted her to survive, he wanted her to be out there or not, you know, where Ronin was attacking and we saw that. But I think the reinforcement of the idea of unconditional love, obviously Kingpin’s love is conditional. He wants her to do, to your point, his bidding. But the idea that she could go back to her roots, go back to the people who share her culture and kind of have love without expectation of something in return, I think is going to be really important for her character to understand that she herself has value, not just for what she can do and what she can, the power that she can gain for someone else. 

Katie: Yeah, I agree, I think it’ll be interesting. She’s going to definitely be taking on it looks like Kingpin himself. But then I’m left with the question of what is Kingpin’s fate after this? Because obviously, Hawkeye left that pretty open-ended when we never saw him drop because again, no body know death and so we all kind of already knew he was not going to be gone. But now you have this show focused on pretty much his daughter, essentially, who I can imagine and it looks like she’s pretty bent on taking him down. So what does it look like for Kingpin after this? What’s his future is really a big question I have. 

Taylor: Yeah, it is a good question. We know he’s confirmed for Born Again, so the question is when does Born Again take place? I have so many questions about Born Again. I can’t even make that part of this episode because that’s a whole nother episode. But knowing that does put a wrinkle in it. I do think he’s going to survive again, to the point that you were making earlier, you don’t just bring Kingpin in for a couple episodes in one show and another show like he’s too big a player, he hasn’t even met Spider-Man yet. That’s an option now, and there’s no way that they’re going to miss that opportunity. So I think we’re going to see Kingpin in the future. I think he’s going to make it out of here, I don’t know how. Maybe it’s a change of heart for Maya. She’s bent on revenge. She was bent on revenge in Hawkeye as well but I think we saw her start to soften and maybe it’s as she gets in touch with her less lethal side that she learns mercy and she learns forgiveness. At the end of the day, that’s going to take her further than killing Kingpin ever would. I think Maya’s character development is going to be the savior of Kingpin in this show, and through that is going to open him up to be in Born Again, to meet Tom Holland’s Spider-Man down the road. I think that’s how he makes it out of here alive. 

Katie: And it could be interesting, because maybe that fight scene between her and Daredevil actually comes down to the fact that at the end of the day, she’ll still defend him, even if she obviously is angry and doesn’t believe in the things he stands for anymore. I mean, that could be her still protecting him at the end of the day and that kind of wraps in what you were just saying. I hope we don’t not see Kingpin going further. Again because you just brought in the same actor, he’s not disposable to me at that point. Why would you do that if you didn’t have a plan for this character? But two, there is a little seven year old inside of me that wants nothing more than to finally see Kingpin on screen with Spider-Man after watching the animated series. So I am, like, determined that he lives through the next two shows he’s in to get to that point, and he’s also so interesting of a character. You want ground level, you have it with him. He is a very grounded villain, but at the same time, he’s one of the best for that reason. I want to see him continue to play that part. I think he’s so good at it. And you know, I like how you said Maya’s character development is actually what saves him because I don’t disagree. I think she will learn she doesn’t want to be him and she would just be him by killing him because that’s what he would do. 

Taylor: Exactly. He’s kind of, leave no stone unturned kind of guy. And by no stone unturned I mean leave no body warm. 

Katie: He’s very thorough. 

Taylor: Yeah, exactly and so I think in repudiating him and everything he stands for, she steps away from revenge and violence. Okay, she’s not gonna step away from violence totally because that means she would just, like, not be her and also would never appear again, but violence for revenge is sake. I think doing it for a noble cause, and I could see her doing that in the future. But for her own personal revenge, I think this is the show that’s gonna move her away from that. Make her step more clearly into the hero camp, whereas right now, and I forget what I was watching that was saying this, but she’s kind of living in a gray area. We don’t really know what Maya stands for yet, but I think coming out of this show, along with so much of her character development, we’re going to see a hero emerge. 

Katie: I actually kind of disagree, and it’s only because I think Marvel needs more gray-area heroes. I think Daredevil’s actually a good example of that, where he’s still doing the right thing, but by some interesting means. I know what you’re going to say of like, okay, well, like Daredevils still a hero, but I think you need some that have that willing to make kind of interesting choices to get places and I don’t always know if that’s considered a hero anymore. I mean, you wouldn’t see Steve Rogers making some of these choices or even Iron Man, and he made some weird choices, but he wouldn’t be making some of that gray area. And I mean, again, then you have characters who before should be in that kind of category, like Black Widow, like your Winter Soldier. You have other heroes. Oh, what are we calling them? Anti-heroes for that exact reason. I think you need more of them. That’s the premise of the Thunderbolts. So let’s bring let’s keep Maya in that area. I don’t think we need to cross that line to full hero. Keep her in that gray area, keep us on our toes with her where she’s always willing to make decisions that, you know, even maybe we aren’t okay with making. And we wouldn’t have made a decision because we know it’s not the right choice, even if it got the job done. So I actually kind of disagree. I think I wouldn’t mind keeping her in that gray area, just knowing she kind of still swings and bats for the right team.

Taylor: Yeah, no, I actually love that. I love the idea that the ends justify the means. I think there are, to your point, Daredevil is a huge character like that. He definitely crosses the line and I could see Maya in her noble pursuit, crossing the line. So I love the idea of her kind of having the right intention, but maybe not going about it in a Steve Rogers sort of way. I like that. I think that could be, to your point, a much more nuanced character than some of our kind of more black-and-white heroes. Like, don’t get me wrong, love a Steve literally wearing a Steve Rogers shirt right now, but I love to mix that in with some characters who have a little bit more gray area. Moon Knight’s another one. Is he good? Is he bad? I don’t know, he’s just killing people. 

Katie: And they happen to be the bad guys but is he a hero for that reason across the board? That’s the question mark, right?

Taylor: Exactly and I think those characters are interesting and I like what you were saying. I too would like to see more of them, not Sony’s version of anti-heroes, but a true anti-hero. 

Katie: You mean Sony’s version of I’m going to make a bunch of anti-heroes, but I might try and do a Sinister Six with them later on, and it won’t make sense because I made them all anti-heroes but that’s okay because we’re trying to stay alive. 

Taylor: Precisely. 

Katie: Yeah, but I don’t know, I think she’s an interesting character to keep in that area. I mean, come on, you have any sort of connection like that to Kingpin? I don’t expect for a second to see you be I’m not 100% a good guy all the time, making all the right choices. I would never expect that from her so I’d like to keep her in that nice gray. We’ve got a lot of different variations of gray, right? She can be in any part of it. 

Taylor: Yeah and I think when I said hero, I meant more that she was doing the right thing, not motivated by revenge, going after the quote-unquote bad guys. I definitely don’t think she’s ever going to be squeaky clean, you know, again, a Steve Rogers type like that’s never who she’s going to be. I do think she’s going to move from being selfishly motivated and motivated by revenge to doing the right thing to protect others. I think that’s the type of evolution that we’re going to see for her character throughout the series.

Katie: Yeah, I don’t disagree and then as far as I’m concerned, my last thing I kind of just want to touch on briefly, mainly because I don’t know the plot. I don’t know where we’re going with this, it’s one of those shows. But I do want to just briefly, and when I say briefly, I mean like a minute because I don’t want to go down the rabbit hole. I want to talk about Daredevil, mainly because this is now his third appearance in the MCU. Obviously, we saw him first in No Way Home. We all know that iconic moment and then She-Hulk, and now we’re seeing him in Echo, which is to me, and obviously, we know he has a relationship with Spider-Man in the comics. But to me, Echo, the show, is the closest to Daredevil. The storyline of Daredevil, what we know of him, what the comics paint of him. I think this is kind of the closest he is to being home, if you will. And so I just want to talk about where his trajectory is. Obviously, he was kind of a booty call in She-Hulk and he had some cool scenes, and I don’t want to take that away from him but he definitely wasn’t the most important part of the storyline. I don’t think he will be in this either, but this is definitely, like I said, closer to home. This will have probably an impact on his own series that is questionably a reboot. We aren’t even sure of that yet, and I just kind of am curious of your thoughts on where you think his character’s going in this. 

Taylor: Yeah, I think the function of having him in this show is twofold. One, to your point, this is Daredevil at its core, at least from what we’ve seen him in the Netflix show. And even when you look at his comic book background, right, he has a relationship with Echo. You know, it doesn’t matter if that’s platonic or romantic, they know each other in the comics. They fight together often. I don’t want to say often, but they definitely fight together on more than one occasion. So I think that one part is just kind of bringing him into his realm. I also think the second part of this show is really to set up the main conflict of his show, which is the fight against Kingpin, and I think that’s what this show is going to do. Maya is going to have her moments with Kingpin. She is going to get her catharsis, she’s going to have her evolution, in my opinion. She’s going to let him go and Daredevil is going to pick up that trail. I think that’s what we’re going to see this is basically a five-episode backdoor pilot, and I don’t mean to minimize the show at all. I’m incredibly excited for it and I’m excited for Echo to lead. But at a secondary function, this show is a backdoor pilot to Born Again, setting us up. It makes me think that we’re probably going to do this as a reboot, because now these two characters actually, no, I’m not even going to say that we’re not going to go down that rabbit hole and I’m going to take that back, because I also don’t know that I fully believe that yet. But either way, it’s going to set up the conflict within the MCU, and from there, we might actually be able to see whether or not this is a reboot because we’ll see how they interact. That’s what I’ll say about the reboot. I don’t want to go any further until we’ve seen the show. 

Katie: Very true and I think it could be interesting because we’re probably in New York City for some of this. I mean, there’s a few scenes that I’m like, looks like New York, but things are blowing up, so it’s really hard to tell and we know who’s there. We know who’s waiting, so I’m ready. I feel like this is a good domino effect of some great ground-level fighting, great ground-level stories that we have not gotten in a long time, and pretty iconic stories in comics, and it makes me more excited for the show. I don’t want to overlook what it’s about by itself, but I do love a good show that sets up some awesome, good things after it that always excite me. And also, it’s already number two, right? We saw Hawkeye already so that always is just great. I love a good continuity. It makes me very excited. 

Taylor: Well, I think it’s time to call it an episode on our Echo predictions. I know we’re both super excited about the show, so make sure that you are subscribing on your podcast platform of choice, checking out the website with all of the updates, links to everything, the calendar, and all that good stuff. Basically, the hub of all things Sisters Assembled. You can also support the show from there if you would like to help us make the show better.

Katie: Give us a follow on Twitter at SisAssembledPod and Instagram and Threads at SistersAssembled to keep up with the show and all the good things coming out of it, you can also subscribe to our YouTube channel. Coming up next week already, we will be covering the first three episodes of Echo in our next episode, and then right after that, we’ll be doing the last two episodes of Echo because the show, as we said, drops all at once. So we got to cover it a little differently but get ready for those episodes. We’re really excited for the show and really excited to record our reactions and as always, keep up with Marvel and us as Marvel just blew your mind, so let’s talk about it.