Transcript

Taylor: Welcome back or for the first time, to Sisters Assembled. As you saw in our episode title today we are going to be breaking down Episodes Four and Five of Echo. We have now completed the series, and we will be talking about it as a whole, and also focusing mainly on those last two episodes and of course, the end credits scene, which is pretty exciting. So we’re going to get this one kicked off right away, and I’m going to give it over to Kate who’s going to start the convo.

Katie: I’m starting this by saying Taylor and I don’t agree on the ending. And I think that’s really important for us to put out there before we go into the rest of the episode because we don’t agree for the first time in a while, right?

Taylor: Yeah, we typically are pretty much on the same page.

Katie: I think, that I can remember, one of the last things that you and I genuinely did not agree on was Loki Season One.

Taylor: You mean the first thing we ever covered as a show?

Katie: Oh wait, that’s okay. That can’t be right. That can’t be right.

Taylor: I feel like we disagreed on Moon Knight because you really liked Moon Knight, and I was disappointed by it.

Katie: True, that’s very true. I did really enjoy Moon Knight, I thought it was super cool and you were like, eh it could have been better. 

Taylor: Yeah. 

Katie: So maybe Moon Knight might have been the last one. But, I mean, at least as far as 2023, we were very aligned. The year of 2022, I don’t even remember. And 2021, again, the only one from 2021 I think was Loki. We were head over heels for the other ones. I really did like Episodes Four and Five. I do think, and I love that I was doing reactions to them as I was watching them because I can now hold myself very much accountable for the things I’ve said. But I think Four belonged elsewhere, I will say that it felt very weird because we had a lot of exposition at the beginning, as you should, that’s where it belongs. And then you kind of move into more of the story that’s happening currently. And then while there were things like, obviously her conversation with Kingpin was happening currently, we were still getting those flashbacks to kind of build their relationship. So kind of felt out of place when you knew a finale was coming next. I still enjoyed the episode as a whole and then of course, I actually did like the finale. I think this was an interesting take for Marvel on how to do this type of series, and I think too, if I would have watched it all at once, which for obvious reasons I did not, but if I had watched it all at once, I think I actually would have enjoyed it even more than I did.

Taylor: Okay, yeah, we definitely don’t agree. I really, really, really wanted to like the last two episodes. I finished the series and I was texting Kate like I was having real trouble putting my feelings into words, I think because I so badly wanted it to be perfect. And not that like it had to be exactly what I expected, but I wanted to walk out of it and be like, they nailed it. And the fact that not only did I feel like they didn’t nail it, but I didn’t know how to feel about it because I didn’t like it, and I just didn’t want to admit to myself that I didn’t like the last two episodes. It was tough because, as you all know, I really was excited about the show. I loved the first three episodes and I was so excited to watch it. We recorded our Episode 1 to 3 reactions. I edited that episode a little bit, and then I went immediately and watched Episodes Four and Five of Echo, and I was so excited and then it just didn’t land and I was, I was bummed.

Katie: Well, first I just got to say the irony of this situation because Echo was pretty low on my list always and I’m out here like, yeah, I was pretty good. And you were like, you were shouting it from the rooftops and you didn’t quite enjoy the ending quite as much as I did. I will say I want to just put out into the world. I don’t think it was a slam dunk. I’m not going to sit here and say, I think it was the best ending. If you want the best ending, go watch The Falcon and Winter Soldier. That’s the best ending to a show. My opinion still hasn’t changed, that out of all of these shows and I really liked Moon Knight’s ending, I know you didn’t as we brought that up, but out of all the shows, The Falcon and the Winter Soldier to this day is the best ending in my opinion. I don’t think this hit it out of the park, but when you just had three shows that we both agreed didn’t have great endings, I thought this one did just fine for the story that it told, and I think there were a lot of expectations in a lot of different directions. This went a totally different direction than what I think anybody expected, far from what I expected, and I don’t even know what I had thought was going to happen in the series. I don’t know where I thought we were going to go at all with her character, but something I wanted to highlight is this was a character study of Maya. This was not meant to be an MCU, we’re going to move 9 million plots along, kind of show. This was about Maya and following up on Hawkeye and what side she chooses. Does she stay with Kingpin? Does she stay his right-hand man, or does she choose to leave him for what? Where does she go? We’ve got all those answers. And so when you kind of could take that step back and do the idea of, here’s her character study, here’s the whole idea of looking into her relationship with Kingpin, the very complicated relationship when you really put the spotlight on those, I think it did a perfect job of explaining both of those.

Taylor: Yeah and look, I know there are some people who were reacting because, or at least I was seeing the reactions to the reactions of the people saying they wanted more Daredevil. They wanted more Kingpin. That’s not really why it didn’t land for me, I think. I watched it about 24 hours ago, a little less than 24 hours ago so I’ve had some time to kind of ruminate and get my thoughts together as much as I can. I think for me it comes down to really two things. The first one is the pacing, to me, there was an episode missing. You talked about Episode Four being really out of place, and I think that’s true. And especially because we stopped at Three and then we came into Four basically almost fresh, starting off that way. it kind of put me on the back foot. I was a little like, I don’t feel right already and then we went into Five and she had just rejected his offer, and all of a sudden he’s kidnaping her family and he’s, you know, declaring war on the entirety of her community at this very important event for them and I guess I just didn’t really understand how we went from 0 to 100 so quickly. I needed a little bit more build-up to that because it just didn’t feel like there were stakes like there obviously were, but I didn’t feel them because I didn’t see them building and all of a sudden it was just like Crazy Town. And I was just like, not really, I don’t want to say I wasn’t invested, but I didn’t feel the level of concern that I should have felt watching that, because I didn’t understand how we got there, really.

Katie: I do see your point, but I disagree with that. I do think there was a little bit of a pacing thing. I’m not going to disagree with that because I already said Episode Four felt weird. It just felt like there were a lot of relationships they were trying to mend when you- we had a show like this, and was it Moon Knight where we would have like a really action-packed episode where like a lot happened and then it’d be like, here’s a bunch of exposition, and then it’d be like, here’s a lot just happened and then here’s a bunch of exposition.

Taylor: I think it was Moon Knight.

Katie: Okay, it’s because you brought up Moon Knight now like, all the pieces are coming out. I’m remembering so much suddenly. But yes, it kind of felt like that with Moon Knight where it was like, okay, we are setting the scene, Episode One, feel great. I know where we’re at, it was a solid episode. Two and Three, okay, we’re building into something. I see what Maya’s trying to do. I understood, and I mean, we’ve got a lot of Kingpin’s players coming into the realm here, amazing. Four, like I said, just felt weird because it, like, once again removed us from the A plot, if you will, which is her trying to take down Kingpin and it’s back to their relationship. And so it just felt a little weird because it just didn’t have anything, I don’t want to be like, oh, it’s all about the action because it’s not but because I feel like it didn’t really have a lot of action sequence to it, when you get to Five, which, you know, could have been a huge fight if they had chosen to go that direction if they hadn’t stopped Kingpin and his men, it just would have felt even more out of place. I do think as far as you were saying, pacing to me a little off, I do agree with that 100%, but I actually have to argue the stakes were always there. The stakes were never supposed to be a huge thing. They were to Maya huge stakes. Her family were the stakes, right? And that was the whole idea the whole time. They were planting that seed from the very beginning. I mean, even with Bonnie, I sat here and was saying, God, I hope the girl does not eat it, but I see it the second like as soon as they show that relationship, I was like, Bonnie girl, you’re done for. Thank goodness she didn’t. She made it out alive but that was the thought process. That’s what they want you to think and you have to think, Maya is battling this relationship with both her family and Kingpin. She is somebody different to both of them and so him being in town, the second he was in town, I was like, this isn’t good, you know where this is going. So I have to actually argue that I feel as if the ending matched the rest of the tone of the series. I think the stakes were always there about her family. We saw it in Episode Three. We saw it again in Episode Five. This is what Kingpin does when you reject him. He gave Maya way more chances than he would have given anyone else, and he finally, you know, he was like, screw you bro. I was going to give you my entire empire and you chose otherwise. You chose this family over me. I’m supposed to be your family and so what did he do? He went to get rid of them. That checks to me, everything to me made sense in that moment. 

Taylor: No, and I totally agree. I understand the stakes and I see how we emotionally got there. I just think I needed to bridge the gap between her rejecting him, and all of a sudden he was having open warfare on her people. I get what the stakes were, and I get why he did it, but I think it was just such a a shock to go from the way Episode Four was kind of slow and really a very character-focused episode.

Katie: That’s the pacing problem.

Taylor: Right and that’s what I’m saying. I think I needed like another episode to ramp up to show me, okay, things are happening here, things are going to be really bad. And you’re right, like there was that undertone, but I needed something to transition me from the undertone to the full scale, we’re going to have, like, I needed it to feel like a finale, and it didn’t because I didn’t feel the ramp up the way I felt like it needed to ramp up.

Katie: I won’t disagree in the way of I think there needed to be more. I don’t think it needed to be an episode, because I think then that falls to every other show that’s been doing the six episodes, and most of them have not been able to successfully do six for six, at least again, in our opinions, what we’ve seen, what we’ve decided on. And so I don’t know if I needed a full episode, but I definitely do think maybe an extra five minutes on Episode Four to ramp something up to what you were saying. I could agree with that. It just felt a little out of place because it did feel as if I was looking at the oh, what’s it called? The whole little thing with the story, the exposition, and the rising action, and then the climax. What’s that called? The little graph.

Taylor: Yeah, I know exactly what you mean.

Katie: Well, anyway, that’s what I’m looking at in my brain, right? And obviously, we don’t usually get a ton of falling action and, and resolution in these shows because they usually open doors for other things, there’s no need to have that much. So if you’re really looking at those first three, we get exposition, then we get into rising action. Then we go back to exposition for some reason, and then they’re like climax. That was kind of the order of the show and so that is my biggest complaint in general that we can agree on. There needed to be something there because we go forwards then backward then all the way up really fast and so I could have used another five minutes. But to be fair, and I think I was saying this somewhere, somewhere online, you could probably find the comment somewhere guys, but the episodes were really weird because they were all so different in length, and it really threw me off. And then you had a third, well it said, 36 minutes but if you really skip the like catching you up because it’s like, come on, I just watched the episode, we all thought just happened. And then plus the ending and the credits at the beginning, it was really like a 30-minute finale, which wouldn’t have been weird if the opening episode hadn’t been like 50 minutes and every other episode was longer than 30. It was really weird that none of them were consistent.

Taylor: Yeah, it definitely fell off towards the end. And I like what you were saying about adding like a five minute piece to Episode Four. You’re right, I think that I don’t know that I necessarily needed a full episode, so I’m glad that you said that, because I feel like even just a little scene where we see him on the phone talking to that guy, the bald guy whose name escapes me but he was an actor, an Agents of SHIELD. Even just talking to him, saying, we’re going to, you know, get her, we’re going, I needed some sort of, like, cliffhanger to show me that we’re going to ramp back up. But I truly, after Four, you like are almost lulled because, you know, she’s done something. She’s made a choice, but at the same time, she’s now left her home, she’s rejected him and I was like, what’s happening? I needed them to guide me a little bit more into Five versus I feel like they just plopped me into Five and they were like, you need to know how we got here and I’m like, but too much of that happened off-screen. 

Katie: Yeah and I will say what worried me going into Five and there is proof again why I’m happy I did that because there is literally proof of me being like eh, because I was nervous after Four and I don’t again think Five was necessarily the best ending we’ve ever seen to a TV show, but I don’t think it was bad to the series. I think it worked for the series. But I do think, like I went into Five thinking what is the finale even going to be about? Obviously, she’s made Kingpin very angry, we’re aware of that. But beyond that, I’m like, where is this going? What are we fighting for? Where is this all going to add up? It felt like there were a lot of characters in a lot of places, but obviously, we needed them to somehow mesh into one storyline for the ending, that’s what needs to happen in any show. And I really did go into Five being super concerned because I’m like, well, what’s happening? And I will say some of it’s obviously, for the first time ever, we have a protagonist who is non-verbal, and I think there’s a part of that in which we don’t really know what she’s always thinking. It’s not as easy to read her sometimes so I think and also, Maya’s just stoic. She’s not a very emotional character and you can tell so I think kind of juggling both of those facts, I was like, I don’t even know what’s going on with the main character. I don’t know what she’s choosing to do. I don’t know where she’s going. I don’t know what her thought process is. I am just going in blind, almost like I could throw the other four episodes away because I don’t know what’s happening for Episode Five at all.

Taylor: Yeah, it took me forever to understand that she felt that leaving Tamaha was saving her family, and I was like, I don’t understand. That whole scene, I think it’s either at the very end or I think it’s right at the end of Four because she leaves Tamaha at the end of Four. The scene right before you see her leaving on the bike, where she’s staring out of the lake behind her house, and she’s like having flashbacks to, all of her interactions with the people she loves who are, like, still around. I don’t think her parents are in them, but it’s like her family, basically the living family that remains. And I didn’t really understand, like why she was having these flashbacks. And then she gets on her bike and leaves and I was like, okay and then it took me a while to understand, oh, she is thinking about protecting them by removing herself from the situation because she just learned, oh, Kingpin cares so much about me that he’s willing to come all the way here to Oklahoma to come talk to me, to potentially be a threat to my family, to all of this. I need to remove myself because I am the biggest danger there is. To your point with the character being someone who doesn’t speak, who does not even then really emote, which that’s totally fine, like that’s who Maya is. It just adds an extra layer of challenge and I think sometimes you have to make up for that with a little bit of extra story, like almost over-explain or over-tell more than you would with a character who is more expressive with their body and their face to be able to kind of bridge that gap for the audience and make it a little easier to understand what’s happening, because it definitely was a little bit of a challenge. 

Katie: Yeah and I didn’t feel it except for in that place, because I really didn’t know where we were going to go with Five. I really was like, I do not know what our protagonist’s next move is. And that to me, not that I think like we go into everything knowing, but a lot of it is because you’re not supposed to know what the villain’s next move is. You’re not supposed to know, like, okay, we saw Kingpin headbutt the door of the plane or whatever, I was like, choices, but, you know, go off whatever. And I was like, okay, I don’t fully know where he’s going with this, but he’s about to rain some crap on Maya and not make her very happy like he’s about to do some Kingpinny stuff, great. I’m not supposed to know his plan or his intentions. I’m supposed to be shocked by whatever he pulls out of his butt. I need to know a general idea but that’s about it. When you don’t know what your protagonist is thinking, doing, whatever, that makes it a lot harder. And that is kind of what I felt going into Five, where I was like, I really don’t know anything. I don’t know where we’re going to go with this. Maya just got on a bike and left and then that was the other thing was, I was trying to figure out I was like, so was she going back to New York?

Taylor: I have no idea. I don’t know what the plan was.

Katie: Right, I don’t either, because we have no clue, we have very little insight into her personal thought process in that moment. So I was like, is she leaving to go back to New York? Well, is she going to stay with Kingpin because she didn’t get on the plane, fine. But I was like if she’s going back to New York, that’s not to say she doesn’t meet back up with him and then we obviously saw his reaction afterward and I was like, well, I guess he thinks that’s a pretty permanent no, I guess. But like, I assumed she was going to go back to New York so I just it was definitely a little hard to get yourself there for Five. Again, I think had I watched all of these in order of each other right next to each other, as I’m sure plenty of you guys did, maybe I’d feel a little differently, but having some time in between each of them definitely kind of threw off some of my thought process and my ability to see the story as a whole.

Taylor: Yeah, so that whole Episode 4 or 5 thing and the pacing issue was probably the first thing that I was able to fully articulate I was challenged by with the last two episodes of this show, but my second thing and this kind of go hand in hand, was it leaned a little far mystical for what I was hoping it would, and that I was not, you know, we talked about it in our last episode. I was hoping that they would really leave her Maya, skilled fighter, absolute baddie obviously. Hopefully still only be able to tap into that power in her homeland or the land of her people, but it really got way more mystical than I was expecting. And to top it all off, when she was able to share her powers with Bonnie and her grandma, I kind of was like, oh, I’m checking out now, like, this is a little too convenient that was a problem. And then kind of related to that then, we were watching Bonnie and Cholla fight, and we weren’t getting to see Echo fight. And I was like, that’s why I’m here because she is one of the best fighters we’ve seen in the MCU, and we were only getting cut scenes for like two seconds apiece of her fighting between Cholla fighting, Bonnie fighting, Henry going after the guy with the bazooka, and the actual festival happening. And I get it, they were going for a more stylistic look, great, okay, cool. And the festival itself is beautiful, so I’m glad we got to see scenes of it. But in that moment, I wanted to watch Echo kick butt, and instead, we didn’t get to do that and I really, really struggled with that a lot.

Katie: I’m here to tell you your complaints are valid, because if there was one scene that I was kind of like, that did have me teetering, that had me questioning that I’m like, did I like this? Am I liking this? It was that scene with the mystical power thingies, and then everybody had the mystical power thingies, and I was like, oh, okay. And suddenly like, Cholla and Bonnie, were out here kicking some butt too and I was like, since when? Since when? What? So I will say, yeah, I actually almost cringed. Not gonna lie, there was a small part of me that was like, ew, whoa. And I will say from the start, I did not want them to go in this direction. I’ve been very vocal about that. I think it is a beautiful, beautiful story they tell behind it. I think wrapping it all into her heritage from the women that she comes from. We talked about this a little bit last episode when we’re talking about Episodes One through Three. I think the story is so beautiful. Did we need to do it is kind of the question, because I think you could have told a very similar story without there being a mystical aspect and just having her have some very strong ties to her heritage. And my favorite part was when in Episode Three fight scene, just because I think that’s so my favorite part of the whole series but she is swinging around I think it’s a fake gun from one of the games or something of that shape, and she’s swinging it around and she’s like hitting some of the guys with it, and they do a cut to her, to one of her ancestors, the one who we had gotten the story of that episode, and they were kind of showing her do similar moves and I was like, see, that works. That worked for me. We didn’t need to do a little glowing hands or anything like that. We could have just done some of the cool fighting aspects that actually mirror, and it’s almost like she embodies that ancestor during those moments, and that works for me but I really, again, didn’t need the glowing hands. I didn’t really need whatever that whole thing was. It was weird to me, mainly because, again, this is a street-level fighter. This is a street-level hero, she’s best known for that. There is no precedent of this, at least to my knowledge of the research I’ve done on Echo in the comics because she’s not known to be one of those types of heroes or anti-heroes for whatever version of her you want to look at. So I will say I was like, oh God, we really just could have avoided this. It was probably the weakest part of the entire show and again, not the story, just the power aspect of it at all.

Taylor: Yeah, I think you really could have kept the metaphor without it manifesting into a physical, mystical power, right.

Katie: Right, exactly.

Taylor: Yeah, the idea of her, to your point, embodying her ancestors, living on their legacy through her, great. But then she got the glowy hands, which, you know, it happened that one time with the train, and I was like, okay, they each had one experience, right, with the glowy hands. Maybe this is it and it’s just because her life was in danger and she was fighting to protect her people and so she was given this kind of extra boost in order to help her with her mission, cool. I could have gotten behind that and been done with it and been like, I got it, cool, wonderful. But then she had them again, an article I was reading afterward was saying that she was literally echoing her powers into her family members and I was like, meh. And then she had that weird interaction with Kingpin where she, like, took him back to his childhood bedroom. And I was like, you’re not going to fix Kingpin because he’s literally slated to go be a villain in Daredevil.

Katie: Well, and that was weird too, because how? I know that sounds like such a basic and maybe stupid question, but I sat there and I was like, when you’re looking at all the stories of her ancestors, they get this special boost, as you were kind of saying, energy, this power goes through them when they’re defending their people. And I’m not saying she wasn’t defending her people, but nowhere did we see this whole little vision world thing take place. And then suddenly that happened, and I was like, whoa, didn’t really think I needed to see like grown Kingpin kind of in the position of young Kingpin, like blubbering and crying and everything. Like I was like, that was a lot to take in. And it just I was like, what is happening? I will say that like the minute part almost broke it for me if I didn’t think that expositionalyl the story was told well enough.

Taylor: Yeah, it was too much for me like it was, I wasn’t thrilled with Four because to your point with the whole, I won’t rehash the whole idea of the pacing thing. So I was already like, ooh, I don’t know how I feel about this and then that happened and I was like, you literally leaned into the one thing I wanted you to avoid. I loved this show. I was so on board and I asked for one thing, and obviously, it was already made and Marvel doesn’t listen to me anyway. But I asked for one thing, and I asked for you to sprinkle but not dump the mystical aspects onto this character. You dumped and I just was like, no. To answer your question about how she did that with Kingpin, my theory and my understanding slash interpretation is that her mother had that healing power and I think when she had that conversation with her mother who talked about, now you need to heal yourself. It’s not just physical healing, it’s also healing her emotionally. So she was channeling her mother’s healing powers in order to literally heal Kingpin’s inner child, essentially, and heal him as a person. Katie’s face is like, I’m not buying it. That’s just my interpretation.

Katie: I’m not not buying the theory. I’m more so like, that was the writer’s best foot forward?

Taylor: Yeah, no, I don’t agree with it. And that’s why it was enough to really turn me off the episode.

Katie: That’s what I mean, like, I don’t disagree with the thought process there, the idea, the theory. And if that holds true, I’m genuinely still sitting here and I’m like an entire room of writers got together and they said this was it, like that just, really? Because I did not like that part either because I thought she was punching him. And then I realized she was using the power on him to stop him and I was like, okay. But then we did the whole like vision, which was also strange because again, we weren’t going to fix Kingpin. That wasn’t going to happen. We have so much more story to tell, if you wanted to do this, you need to do this in 4 or 5 years. Do this later, because Maya could be the key to it all, to healing him and I don’t disagree with that, but not when you have him slated to be, as you said, a villain in upcoming Daredevil shows or seasons, possibly. And I say seasons because I just I’m hopeful and, you know, possibly a Spider-Man movie like you can’t just make him better doesn’t work like that, and also therapy exists everybody. There is not actually a mystical way of solving these problems when you have them. Please just go to therapy, that’s all. That’s all you need to do. Man’s got a lot of money, go to therapy.

Taylor: So anyway, on that note.

Katie: Advocate, mental health advocate.

Taylor: That was my kind of second combo reason was I wanted to see Maya fight, and they leaned way too heavily into the mystical stuff for me to, like, be able to buy into this episode, because I think they kind of got rid of one in favor of the other, right? She’s this supremely skilled fighter, and they decided to minimize that in order to maximize the mystical, which is literally what we spent an entire episode talking about them doing to street-level fighters in these big, large-scale movies and TV shows. Because in comparison to a more mystical-powered being, they are always going to seem weaker. Then you literally did it within one character. Can we please, please just have one character be a baddie fighter and that’s it. Just let them kick butt. 

Katie: Well, and it just didn’t make sense because there was no reason. Like there really was no reason. She wasn’t battling an Agatha, it was Kingpin. She did not have a reason. We saw her lay out, what, like 20 dudes in Episode Three? She was fine. She could have taken down that situation.

Taylor: She went toe to toe with Daredevil.

Katie: Yeah, like she was fine, trust me. So I do have to say, all your complaints are valid complaints. I see them. I could see why in those moments, that’s what made you walk out and kind of say, eh. I kind of went the other direction where I was like, I see these complaints, but yet, I still enjoyed this enough that I like it, and I can walk out saying I like it. But for those exact reasons, I will not be able to say that was the perfect ending to the show, because it wasn’t. I think there were other ways to go. Again, there were a lot of writers in a room, and I think there were probably other options that they chose not to go with, that to me were probably better, but didn’t happen. That’s okay. I do want to pivot from the actual context of everything we’re getting all the show, everything, and just go with the future at this point, because I think there are three character breakdowns that we need to talk about. One’s brief, one is a little longer, and one’s longest and the briefest one is actually Daredevil. Who can I get a holla for me because was I right or was I right when I sat there and said, I don’t think we’re going to see Daredevil past Episode One, and boom, didn’t see that man again. Didn’t even make an end-credit scene appearance. They click-baited some people so hard, I will say I do feel bad. Marvel, that was kind of rude, because you knew there were going to be people who probably weren’t going to watch the show, so you said, here’s Daredevil, and then never put him in any further. So that was kind of mean, I will admit. But he’s coming out with his show. What’s his future after this? Obviously, the actual scene we even see him in isn’t even current day. It was back in Hawkeye.

Taylor: Yeah, so I think I know you said there’s three and I know exactly who the last two are, but I think you can’t talk about Daredevil without talking about Kingpin. So I’m going to go Kingpin first, and then from there extrapolate to Daredevil.

Katie: So we’re doing the biggest one first.

Taylor: Oh, I thought you were gonna talk about Maya being the base because she was the main character.

Katie: As far as I’m concerned with that ending, I have no clue about Maya’s future. Kingpin was set up for something.

Taylor: Yeah, you’re right, you’re right. So I do want to dive right into the end credits scene with Kingpin, because I think a lot of Daredevil’s future hinges on Kingpin knowing that they are going to be in a show together, and we know more about Kingpin’s future than we do specifically Matt Murdock slash Daredevil’s. So to set the scene, he’s in his private plane, he’s watching the news and they’re talking about the mayoral race in New York, and they’re talking about needing an outsider, someone who is not part of regular politics, the traditional parties to run and Kingpin kind of gets just look on his face, and you’re supposed to think about that as an indication of what he’s going to do in Daredevil Born Again. Now for a little bit of context, I did actually do a little bit of research after this episode. I very rarely have the opportunity and the time to look into things after the episode and before we record, so this is a rarity and a miracle, but there’s a very famous comic run where Kingpin is the mayor of New York and it involves, if I’m remembering correctly because I read this at like midnight, it involves a few of the Defenders, I think Spider-Man is involved. It’s a pretty famous comic, so a lot of people after this setup are really thinking that that’s the run that Born Again is going to bring to life in this next season. So now that we’ve talked about Kingpin potentially running for and winning the mayoral race, what does that mean for Matt Murdock? He’s probably going to be trying to get him out of the mayor’s seat, fighting him at the highest levels now, because not only is he a criminal Kingpin, but he is now also the most important and the most powerful politician in the city. So I think that’s the storyline that we’re going to see those two going head to head against in Born Again, and that’s their future in my opinion.

Katie: I like it, but I’m going to counter it with maybe we see more of the race. Maybe the whole of Born Again is going to be focused a little bit more on him actually campaigning and obviously Daredevil doing everything in his power to not allow him to be elected. And then by the end, he is elected and I think that sets up for us bringing in Spider-Man.

Taylor: I love it. I’m going to put a stamp on it and say approved.

Katie: Yeah, I feel like that’s a good way to see Daredevil continue to play his part being Kingpin’s most annoying pest. And then you could sit there and finally bring in the Daredevil Spider-Man duo because, okay, I don’t want Spider-Man’s next movie to be, like, completely overshadowed because he’s had that problem with Iron Man, the entirety of most of his run in the MCU. But, I mean, they’re a very iconic duo, and so are him in Deadpool. So it’s like, I would love to see one of them happen. We’re moving in the right direction with Daredevil, so I’m thinking Daredevil has been, you know, knee-deep in this Kingpin crap for a long time and Spider-Man is swinging around New York City. Well, what do you think an elected Kingpin might want to do to a very well known superhero who’s swinging around his city and probably getting in his way? So I feel like this all moves in the right direction to have either a team-up or to have at least Spider-Man’s movie and maybe a Daredevil cameo here and there. I just think that is the most logical way and then it all just works very nicely in my head.

Taylor: Yeah, I really like that. I mean, we know that the next trilogy’s coming for Spider-Man, that’s confirmed. Tom is a little wishy-washy, he clearly wants some creative input on the script, which is fine. Do I think Tom Holland would sign off on the chance to work with Charlie Cox a little bit, and have one of the most iconic duos in comics come to life? Yeah, I do think that’s something that would intrigue Tom. So, you know, if it’s good enough for Tom, it’s good enough for me and I think we can sell that one in. 

Katie: Well, they already know each other. 

Taylor: Exactly.

Katie: He defended him. He was his lawyer so I think this works very nicely. Every piece is going into place.

Taylor: Well, the only thing is, you’re forgetting about the end of No Way Home. Nobody knows who Peter Parker is anymore, so.

Katie: Well but Peter knows him.

Taylor: Right, I’m just saying, it’s not like they are able to pick up where they left off because as far as Matt Murdock knows, Peter Parker doesn’t exist.

Katie: But to be fair, regardless of Peter Parker existing or not, neither of them knows the other’s alter ego at this point. And they shouldn’t theoretically, obviously, what happened in No Way Home prior to the spell at the end and everything, everyone knew. But if we go just off the idea of truth be told, in comics, not a lot of people, and initially no one, know Peter Parker is Spider-Man, and not a lot of people initially, no one knows that Matt Murdock is Daredevil. So even if they were besties, suddenly it’s not like they knew the other’s alter ego and vice versa.

Taylor: Yeah, I agree, I would love it. And I think too, I think there’s an opportunity like I said, I think the Defenders, there are some of the Defenders who are a part of this comic run. I know Luke Cage was mentioned. I don’t remember what his role is in this particular line, but he was one that stuck out to me. I don’t remember reading about specifically Jessica Jones and Iron Fist, but if we can bring back Luke Cage in Born Again, not in the Spider-Man movie, that would be really awesome too, because Mike Colter was awesome. I really, really liked Luke Cage. I would be into bringing that back. And then from there we can bring in Jessica too, because that’s a married couple that I’m ready to see on screen.

Katie: Luke’s the one that I was telling you as a Rutgers alum, right but I was calling him Nick Cage because I was messing with the name.

Taylor: Yes. She was like, Nick Cage is a Rutgers alum. And I was like, or no, the guy who plays Nick Cage and I was like, that doesn’t sound right. You mean Luke Cage? 

Katie: Yeah, clearly someone here didn’t watch The Defenders, anyway. 

Taylor: You need to now because it’s required reading.

Katie: Shush shush shush shush shush shush. Listen, I’m about, do you want to expose me? I’ll expose myself. To all those who have been listening since Secret Invasion, your girl never finished Agents of SHIELD. I literally have three episodes left, I never finished it. So y’all want to talk about some required reading? Still haven’t finished what I swore I was going to finish before the end of Secret Invasion, because that didn’t happen. But pivoting to our final bit, where the heck’s Maya going? What’s her future?

Taylor: I so hoped she would go back to New York. I mean, I get it like I want her to be with her family too, and I think that’s important. I think that was the point of the show, but nobody is going to bring the fight to Tomaha.

Katie: Well, are we rewriting her off? Is my question but then why do this?

Taylor: Yeah, they’re definitely not writing her off. I think Kingpin’s going to leave her alone for the time being. She scared him. He literally looked like a deer in headlights when he left. I mean, he was in turmoil. He’s going to leave her alone for a while. Who else knows she’s out there? No one. So my thing is, something has to bring her back to New York because they’re not going to bring the fight to Tomaha. We saw it already. Kingpin’s the only one who knows where she is, and he’s not going to be focused on her moving forward. He’s got his next gig lined up or he’s working on his next gig. I think something brings her back to New York. Now, we talked and the predictions episode about her maybe being in the Daredevil show. Is it that she finds out he won mayor of New York? Is it that she finds out that he’s running, you know, based on your theory and she goes to stop him from gaining even more power because, again, that was her point. Maybe now she doesn’t want his empire, she’s rejected it already, but now she maybe wants to dismantle his, take away his power, especially because let’s not forget what his whole little gambit was at the end of Episode Five or during Episode Five, he held a gun to two members of her family and had another member shoot or attempt to shoot a bazooka at her entire community. She’s going to be a little angry, probably, so maybe this sparks the little bit of revenge we know likes to fester in Maya, and she goes to just be like, no, you don’t get to do this. Now, she and Daredevil are on the same team. It makes sense again, we’ve talked about their team-ups in the comics. I could see that happening. I don’t think there’s any way that her time in Tomaha is permanent or long-lived, because I think too many people now are interested in this character. I know I really like her as a character even though I didn’t love how the show ended, I still love Maya as a character. And if they tell me that I am done seeing Maya, I’m really gonna throw some things. Like, I’m not going to be happy, so find me a way to bring her in. I don’t care how you do it, just bring her back.

Katie: Mine’s more like, don’t waste my time. And I don’t mean that in a rude way, but I kind of do. Because if the whole point of this show ends up being to show another side of Kingpin and then kind of start the ball rolling of that whole running for mayor kind of storyline, if that is what that ends up being because the focus goes so far away from Maya, then my time has been wasted. I didn’t need to sit here and record these episodes. I didn’t need to sit here and watch five episodes to a series that was pointless, apparently. And I’m not one of those people that’s like, oh, it all needs to be a part of the bigger MCU, absolutely not. But don’t just waste my time on a random character who, if you’re deciding to never show her to us again, that’s wasting my time on a random character then. I didn’t need this show, I said that from the start. The show didn’t feel needed. I ended up liking it, I ended up really enjoying Maya as a character a lot more than you know Hawkeye me had when we walked out of it. Mainly because I was blinded by Kate and Yelena, but who wouldn’t be? Duh. I think it would be a dumb move to leave her where she’s at, so I agree. I think she has to end up back in New York. That was my only thought process. I did think maybe we’d get another end credit of her, kind of at least explaining a plan a little bit to maybe one of her family members, kind of just giving us a general gist of what she might be up to after this because if she doesn’t go back to New York, then what? Nothing happens in Oklahoma. Nothing. It’s just stagnant at this point. There isn’t going to be another fight in Oklahoma. It’s not going to happen and again, you said it very well, is Kingpin really worried about her anymore? Not right now, not out there. He’s got other things to worry about now.

Taylor: Yeah and I think on that note, with Maya’s very questionable future and a very I should say, pretty clear idea of where Kingpin and Daredevil are going next, we are going to end our episode of Echo covering Episodes Four and Five of Echo. That’s so hard to say, but we are done with this particular episode. We have some future Echo coverage coming down the line, so we’re not done yet talking about the character, but for now, we are done talking about specifically the show itself. With that in mind, make sure that you are subscribing or following on your podcast platform of choice to stick with us as we continue to break down the MCU and MCU adjacent content for the rest of the year. Also, make sure you’re checking out the website, which is the central hub to everything Sisters Assembled. It’s also the place where you can support the show if that’s something that you would like to do to help us make the show better.

Katie: You can also give us a follow on Twitter at SisAssembledPod, Instagram, and threads at Sisters Assembled and subscribe to us on YouTube at Sisters Assembled as well. All of this is so you can keep up with the show, and the great things we have coming out, and also just having fun with us as hosts as we do a lot of random crap in our lives every single day. So make sure you’re giving us a follow on whatever platform you prefer and as Taylor said, our next episode is going to be Echo-related. We have yet to figure out what exactly that means, but it will be talking about the Echo character, show some concept from it, so make sure you guys get ready to listen to that one. And as always, keep up with Marvel content and us as well as Marvel just blew your mind, so let’s talk about it.