Transcript

Taylor: Hello, listeners, and welcome to Sisters Assembled. For today’s episode, we are going to be continuing our coverage of Echo with a special episode talking specifically about her powers and where those powers might lead as she finds her future in the MCU. So we’ve got a good one for you today, definitely stick around, get excited, and I’m going to let Katie kick it off because I think we’re going to have a lot of fun this episode.

Katie: First and foremost, I hope you watched Echo, or you’re going to be a little confused about what Taylor just said. So just putting the record out there that I hope you’ve seen this show. It’s a good one, you should definitely go watch it if you haven’t. But yeah, Maya has powers, mystical powers, to be more specific. If you guys listen to our reactions for Episodes Four and Five, which I believe was the last episode, so if you are here from that, you know we had a little bit of mixed feelings about the direction that they went with her mystical aspect. Obviously, Maya is a very skilled fighter and we all saw that. I mean, she looked freaking amazing throughout the entire show, but we now have this added mystical power, we don’t think it’s going to be going away. And considering some of the things Alaqua who is the main character, that’s who plays Maya if you didn’t know, has been saying sort of off the screen, it seems these powers are sticking around. Maybe our theory about them only being in Oklahoma might not be real. I think that’s kind of the starting point, is what comes next with these?

Taylor: Yeah, I think that is a good question. I also want to just emphasize because you alluded to what we talked about in last episode, and for anybody who didn’t check out our last episode, one, you should, but two, I’m going to give you a quick little recap. I’ll speak for myself and Katie, you can fill everybody in on whether you agree, but I think my perspective is that I have zero problem with using the Choctaw legends and really diving into her heritage. I think that’s actually awesome to not shy away from her heritage and all of those aspects that make her who she is, but instead to let them shine, amazing. My issue is more with taking a street-level character and making them a mystical character because I really wanted her to kind of bridge that, or be that person who allows us to have really powerful, really awesome street-level fighters who are superheroes specifically for their skills and not because they have mystical power. So I just want to make that nuance super, super clear in case anybody hasn’t listened to the last episode and Katie’s nodding so I know she feels the same way. Just want to start off by saying that. Now, to answer your question about where we could go from here, I’m just going to dive right into my absolute favorite theory coming out of this and it’s actually something I think we mentioned in the predictions episode, which is kind of what has happened to Maya most recently in the comics, and that’s that she has taken on the Phoenix Force. Now, for anybody who is not familiar because either you don’t follow the X-Men in the comics, or you haven’t watched any of the X-Men films that Fox made. The Phoenix Force is typically something that you think about with Jean Grey, the Sophie Turner Dark Phoenix storyline that is the Phoenix Force, right? In the comics, actually, very recently, Maya was the embodiment of the Phoenix Force, another very powerful entity, I guess is the best way to put it. So the Phoenix Force is basically the embodiment of life force, so imagine that, being the literal embodiment of life. That’s pretty insane. She then goes by the name of Thunderbird. So what I was reading in preparation for this episode was that a lot of, or I would say a decent amount of articles were positing that, hey, maybe these mystical powers are kind of a stepping stone for us to get used to Maya having these powers and then being able to go into and on to becoming Thunderbird and getting that Phoenix force. And what I liked, what the articles were saying was, you know, we’ve obviously seen the whole Jean Grey thing happen. That’s who’s most commonly associated with the Phoenix Force but we’ve seen it done. And everybody kind of knows that Dark Phoenix didn’t necessarily do super well, either by critics or I don’t think, in the box office. So it could be an interesting way to give the idea of the Phoenix Force new life without tying it to a character that has kind of a mixed bag of reviews as it relates to being put on screen or ready. And they were also saying maybe Maya is the way that we’ve officially bring in the X-Men. We’ve obviously gotten the hints, we’ve talked about it a million times, but maybe Maya being the Phoenix, though she is not a mutant to our knowledge, and it doesn’t seem like with this new power it’s hinting at that at all. But even though she’s not a mutant, she could then usher in the X-Men. So that’s something that I actually really hope happens because I think that if we’re going to lean into a mystical power for her, let’s just go all the way. Don’t go halfway, you’ve already done it, let’s just full-force it.

Katie: It’s going to take some time for me, I have to be honest because starting with kind of what you were saying, I love a good street-level fighter, and we all know that. I think to see her fight the way we got to was really, really cool. And actually, I remember in your reactions you said that you felt that the finale was a little underwhelming for you. And I know we kind of talked about the different action scenes and whatnot and you were saying it’s not just because of that, but it is partially. I mean, when it’s at the end of the finale of a show, of a series, whatever, you do expect somewhat of a big battle. That’s just kind of what is expected. Doesn’t need to be catastrophic and world-changing, but it needs to have some sort of stakes to it and we did talk a lot about that. And so I guess when you do compare something like Episode Three where she is hand-to-hand combat and she is quite literally killing it, and then you have the finale where we see her express this power more and it was kind of like, oh, okay, kind of moment, it’s just one of those things that I think it’ll give need some time for me. Let’s just say it that way. I will need some time to accept it. As far as what you’re saying, I don’t mind this theory, although I think it would be very weird for me, for her to be the one to usher in the mutants, mainly because you do have mutants here. You have Kamala, you have possibly Wanda.

Taylor: Namor.

Katie: Yes, Namor, exactly. So you have at least three, and we all know Wanda is coming back and she’s arguably one of the more famous mutants from any of the comic lines. So when you’re already kind of putting those pieces together and to your point, we have not gotten any confirmation that Maya is a mutant, I don’t think I’d love for her to be the one to bring them in. It would just feel a little weird. Again, Marvel or I should say, the MCU does whatever the MCU is going to do, they will take one small storyline and make it an entire trilogy if they need to. And all respect, because a lot of the time, I couldn’t even imagine how they’re able to pull some of this together and make any sort of a cohesive storyline, but I just don’t know that would be the right direction for the mutants specifically, and how they should be brought in. I’m not against her embodying the Phoenix Force, though, further down the road, it could be interesting. But I think, to circle it all back, I guess the second half of my initial question was or an implied second half was I guess these powers are sticking around outside of Oklahoma, which goes against what you and I were saying initially thinking it mainly had to deal with her being on her homeland and the homeland of her tribe.

Taylor: Yeah, you know, I definitely still like that theory because even though I’m kind of like, yay, Phoenix Force and I love what her mystical powers kind of open up in that realm and the possibility that that could even be a thing. There is another part of me that is still not over, kind of like what you were saying, not over having to trade off, seeing Maya go hand to hand against people because she now has mystical powers. So I still love the idea that it is limited, because then we will get to see more of her actual fighting skills, which I think are some of my favorite things to watch when it comes to her because she is so lethal and graceful when she does it like it’s really quite beautiful to watch. I say all that to say I wouldn’t mind if that’s still a thing to give some kind of lid, but all of the articles and even some of the things that producers and I feel like directors are saying coming out of the show wrapping or being fully out after last week, they’re really leaning into this and they’re really kind of hyping it up. And, you know, like, I said, they’re talking a lot about how they really wanted to differentiate her from Taskmaster, because again, we do have a Taskmaster and in the comics, her powers are incredibly similar.

Katie: I don’t disagree with that, but I have to say, as somebody who quite liked Taskmaster, I know that was like a whole thing in the fandom because people didn’t like the MCU take on her. Well, on them, because in the comics, Taskmaster is not a woman. But I really enjoyed that character, and I liked obviously the storyline in Black Widow. I never once was sitting there thinking, oh yeah, Maya reminds me, just of Taskmaster. Mainly because they shot her so differently and also with her being hard of hearing and having the prosthetic leg, I do think that completely changes the game from Taskmaster, who unfortunately, her own father pretty much made her a killing robot, so to me, very different. I can see why they’re trying to differentiate, but I actually think they did a perfectly good job without adding any extra salt into the mix if you will.

Taylor: I also, along those lines, I argue like why does she need a power right? To me, I look at characters like Natasha and Clint who are completely normal, and didn’t get their dues, right? We never, I mean, Hawkeye a little bit, Black Widow a little bit, but we never really got to see them in their prime, just absolutely go at it. Especially in this TV-Ma absolute gore-fest, I mean, it’s not a gore-fest, there’s definitely I’ve seen worse stuff. Have you guys watched Daredevil because it gets worse. But like definitely in comparison on the spectrum to regular MCU fare, this was intense. And I think if we had gotten this level of intensity of a Hawkeye or a Black Widow, that’s one thing but we didn’t and they’re nonpowered individuals. So I think that’s the other kind of part of the disappointment when it comes to giving Maya these mystical powers is that I kind of thought that she was going to be the one who, yes, she has that kind of echo, mimicry power but if even if you take that away, she’s just an awesome fighter. And I wanted one character who was just enough, being an awesome fighter to be able to just go at it hard, no PG-13 limitations there, because we never got to see that with some of our other characters. I was hoping she would kind of usher in that ability, as we’re getting people like Daredevil in the future and other potential characters in that Defender’s universe who really should be able to, well, a lot of them are powered, so that’s a little different but like, who should be able to have these fights without necessarily having powers and just be a hero based on their own skills and abilities versus some sort of enhancement.

Katie: I couldn’t agree more with that, to be honest, because that’s how I feel. I know we’ve said that a lot throughout our reactions last episode, and even this one. I am not against the powers in the long run, but I do think I would have preferred if she didn’t have them at all, it’s just a personal thing. I don’t think we’ve had a lot, to your point of characters who I mean, even we did have Black Widow and we did have Hawkeye and they were not showcased. I mean, take out their each respective piece of content in Phase Four. Tell me they were showcased in Phases One through Three because they weren’t not at all. Oh, the other four granted, I know Mark Ruffalo wasn’t in his technical movie, but the other four at least all got one movie in the first few phases, they didn’t get any, and at least Black Widow showed up in a couple. Clint was off in who knows where for 90% of them, and just showed up in random Avengers movies. So I really do wish we could have seen Maya be this individual. To your point that you were kind of saying, answering my question, I wish this limitation would stick, I don’t think it is. I really don’t because the way everybody seems to be talking this is actually only going higher. They’re only going to play this up whereas I was hoping it would get played down. While, I didn’t like it, I think it worked with the story and especially at the end when we see that both her grandmother and her cousin clearly have the ability as well. I was like, okay, this still works, I don’t love it, but if we keep it confined to this, I’m okay with it. If we’re going to blow it up, which again seems to be the direction if you listen or watch or read or whatever, any of the interviews being done, any of the rumors kind of being thrown around, it seems like these powers are here to stay. So that being said, let’s get into them a little bit.

Taylor: Yeah, so I do want to break down because I think this is something we kind of glossed over last episode, we were mainly just reacting to them instead of actually analyzing them. So I want to break down the four powers within the power, if that makes sense because it’s really kind of an umbrella for four different abilities. Strategy, cunning, ferocity, and love. So all of those things are things that Maya is able to tap into to enhance her own natural abilities or honed abilities, depending on what she’s using at the time, in order to defeat her enemies. Obviously, we saw those four elements at the beginning of each episode being shown really through her female ancestors. One thing that I thought was really cool was I was reading an article talking about how the story at the beginning was actually a real myth within the Choctaw community about their creation and how they came to be as a people. So I thought that was really awesome, that there were elements of Choctaw history, and mythology that are being authentically and truthfully added into the story. For example, as well, the story with one of her ancestors in The Light Horseman. Those were real people in the Choctaw community in history, which is cool that they integrated that. Same thing with the episode with stickball, that’s something that’s part of Choctaw history, but actually something that they still play to this day. So again, it’s really integrating the community, the history, and the heritage of the Choctaw people in a meaningful and authentic way, which I thought was really cool, so kudos to Marvel. Also, they worked really closely with the Choctaw community to make sure it was that way, so kudos to both teams for making that really a seamless addition to the character, but also a really awesome way to learn more about an entire group of people that otherwise many people may not have known very much about.

Katie: Yeah, I thought it was really interesting. I thought they did an amazing job and again, kudos, because not a lot of studios would go out of their way to work closely with the community they’re trying to represent. I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again, I think the MCU does a very good job at showing different cultures and showcasing them authentically rather than, you know, going whatever direction they think they should go. They actually go out of their way to make sure things are done properly and we as people who like personally don’t know much about the Choctaw tribe and I don’t know much about their history, but just through the show alone, I’ve learned things, and I think we could say that about several different films and shows we’ve gotten over the years. So again, kudos to them. And to wrap this into the powers and everything that is the part that I think I can wrap my head around the easiest is that while I don’t love the powers and I’ll be very vocal about that until the day I die, I quite enjoy how they brought them to the table, because one, again, they did go through her ancestral line. The women of her ancestral line very interesting, very interesting to show the different stories, how it kind of came to be, because obviously the very first one we’re seeing that her first ancestor starts the Choctaw tribe. That’s the whole story that they’re showing us but it’s actually because she’s the only one who and I don’t know what the water or what looks like water is at the beginning, she’s the only one who had a chance to touch it and be part with it before, whatever the cavern or I’m not sure what to describe what they were in started to collapse and she saved her people. And so to me, that was the implication that’s kind of where this gift also starts to come from because that’s how we start seeing the symbols on her hands. Spreading that down the line and showing the different circumstances I think it was such a brilliant idea. So I’m not mad in that case, because I think if we were going to get any unwanted powers, at least tell a good story about how they happened and that’s exactly what they did here.

Taylor: Yeah, I agree, it’s a very seamless story from learning about her ancestors, learning about her heritage, to understanding exactly what her not exactly what her powers are, because there’s obviously some room for learning more about them. We haven’t seen them very much, but at least understanding where they come from and how that relates to her history as a person, which she spent a lot of time in New York, not really leaning into or not really exploring. So that’s another really interesting piece to this, which is that she got these powers as she’s starting to embrace that part of who she is, which is something that, like I said, in New York, was not part of her and something that she was so yes, she had ferocity in New York. Yes, she had cunning in New York and strategy but I think she was missing a lot of love. Obviously, she loved her father, and her father loved her. In his own twisted way and in her own twisted way, she and Kingpin loved and still love each other. But I think that the love that she feels when she’s home with her family, with her grandmother, with her cousin, her grandfather, I mean, both her cousins, really, her uncle. Those are the types of things that were missing from Maya. And it’s only once she taps into that, once she taps into her history truly, her maternal line, the way that that goes because if you think about it too metaphorically, she lost her mother at such a young age. I think she felt an immense amount of guilt, which is why the conversation that she had with her mother was so important. You know, even as a little girl, she said to her dad, I’m so sorry, it was my fault, tell mom it’s my fault at the tender age of six. And I was like, you’re going to make me cry in the first five minutes, aren’t you?

Katie: Yeah, I know.

Taylor: That one was tough. That sweet little girl is such a good actress. But the line for her, that connection for her to the rest of her maternal line, stopped with her grandmother because she had no relationship there and I think it’s not a coincidence. Yes, she was able to tap into it that one time on the train and yes, she was having some of the visions, but it’s not until she reconnected with her grandmother and started to rebuild that relationship and then rebuild the relationship with the rest of her ancestors through the connection now that she had with her grandmother that was no longer severed. Then she was able to tap into the full embodiment of the powers and the full breadth of them because now she was connected to the full maternal line. So I think that’s also a really interesting metaphor for her coming back home, tapping back into all of these things that she didn’t get a chance to do when she was in New York because, as her father said, not just because of her deafness, but because of where she was living in relationship to the rest of her family, she had to live in both worlds. Now she’s actually getting to embrace that second world in a way that she really was not given the opportunity to do in New York.

Katie: Well and I could even argue I don’t even know if she lived both worlds, because I think she lived in one, was pulled rather aggressively out of it, and I don’t really think from what they implied in the show, they really came back. They were gone and she was young enough to kind of live her own life, that it wasn’t like she was 12 or 16 and she was a little older. She was young enough that she just kind of moved on and obviously, we see that even with her relationship with Bonnie. So I think you make some great points about the maternal line and how she really wasn’t able to execute her powers or understand them the way I think she needed to until she reconnected with her grandmother, because, again, she isn’t able to have her mother. We do have a great scene where her mother kind of visits her in spirit and explains a little bit to her. I don’t really understand how, I’m not really sure what she was seeing there, if it was a vision, I’m not sure. But obviously, we do see that and I think that’s another great moment to kind of connect her to everything again, especially the maternal figure that she was missing most of her life.

Taylor: Yeah, exactly. I mean, this show really emphasizes the power of female relationships between Maya and her mother that is unfortunately cut short. Between Maya and Bonnie, that’s something that Maya tries to block out desperately but is much stronger for having in her life. I mean, I would think for her relationship with her grandmother, which again, she’s stronger for not only gives her powers, but it helps her, I think, forgive. I mean, we see Maya in Hawkeye, we see her at the beginning of this show and she’s angry and you get it. She had some very traumatic experiences as a young girl. She grew up in probably not the most easy household. I mean, she was literally living in a world surrounded by shady dealings and the kingpin of crime. But then you also learn that at a very young age, she knew that her grandmother sent her away, her grandmother allowed that to happen, and that festered for all those years. I think what’s interesting is the idea of Maya trying to heal Kingpin at the end, even though I think it’s maybe not my favorite part of the show. But I do think from a storytelling perspective, it’s interesting to know that she does that instead of bashing his face in or shooting him again, which is what she did at the end of Hawkeye, but instead, she chooses to heal him because she’s healed some of her trauma and some of her hurt, her bitterness, her anger as she and her grandmother reconnected. So I think it’s also a really important growth moment to note for Maya through those female relationships that as she repairs them, she becomes less angry, less violent and more prone to forgiveness or maybe, maybe not forgiveness when it relates to Kingpin, probably not yet, but the idea that someone can be saved. The same way that she was saved from being someone who’s prone to violence in the way that she was.

Katie: Well, I mean, you said one of her or one of the capabilities within the powers given to her is love. I think in that moment, that’s what we’re seeing her exhibit towards him. While it might not be the love she feels for her biological family or the love I’m sure she had for her parents, she still has a form of love for Kingpin, as we’ve talked about before, and I think that is kind of what we see. To your point, not one of my favorite scenes, I was very confused and I was not sure where we were going with that, but it was definitely something that I think made an impact. So that’s why I think going through all of this going through the relationships, going through all of the storytelling, it’s like I see where the powers come into play. I see where they make sense. We see her throughout the show, you know, call back almost to her ancestors without knowing it while she’s accidentally using these capabilities. But it definitely is still a an interesting choice, if you will, of direction for this character who might stray very far from what we know her to be.

Taylor: Yeah, definitely not someone who’s going to likely stick to many of their comic book storylines but you know what? As I am coming to terms with that, I’m open to the possibility. I think what’s interesting too, one of the things that I was reading was talking about how Alaqua really wants to be with the Scarlet Witch, and she wants to go with with our girl.

Katie: Our?

Taylor: I mean, like collectively the fandom’s girl.

Katie: Okay, I was going to be whoa! Get out! You already jumped on my Loki ship. Get out! You’re not allowed her to.

Taylor: No, I meant collectively because I think we all feel sad for Wanda. I think that’s interesting, I don’t think without the Phoenix Force, there are many, I don’t think she can quite go toe to toe with her. I don’t think many people can go toe to toe with her, so I’m not sure if she wants, I don’t remember if Alaqua wanted to be in a film working with the Scarlet Witch or go against her. I think she needs the Phoenix Force to have a shot to go against the Scarlet Witch.

Katie: I think she wanted to work with or just be in one with her from my understanding of what I was reading, which me too. I would also like to be in a film with the Scarlet Witch. She could kill me, I don’t care.

Taylor: But anyway, I say all this to say that while Maya’s mystical powers may not have been my favorite direction that they went with the show, I do think it opens up a lot of opportunities, like working with a Scarlet Witch, or being in a film with the Scarlet Witch and truly being able to, I don’t want to say stand with her, because literally no one can stand with the Scarlet Witch, but be able to be in a room with mystical people like a Doctor Strange, Wanda, an Agatha, and not be confused about why she’s there. You know, at least she earned, to me, she’s earned a place in that circle of mystical beings that we need to keep track of. Obviously, Wong, I’m sure there are others that I’m missing. But to me now, her being with those characters or in a project with them makes way more sense than it would if she was just working with her comics set of powers. And I kind of like the possibilities that that opens up versus her just staying on the ground, you know? Like I said, I’m coming to terms with finding the bright side of them choosing a direction that I might not have chosen myself if I was the one in the producer chair.

Katie: I hear you, I just think I’m a little bit in denial because I do wish she would have just stayed ground-level. I wish you would have stayed and ran around with people like Sam and Bucky and Daredevil and Yelena and called it a beautiful day and we all could have gone home happy. Because here’s the thing, I’ve said it once and I’ll say it nine more million times. Actually, I didn’t say it once, I’ve probably said it already 9 million times. The mystical and the cosmic Marvel struggles with a lot because they tend to overpower them and then not know what to do with them. And as of right now, I would say Maya is a dot on the paper of a mystical being when you have Doctor Strange, Wanda, Agatha, Wong all sitting in a room together. To think that they could one day increase her to their level saddens me just because, again, this is an amazing fighter that you are completely changing for the sake of fitting other storylines rather than fitting her own, that she actually fits in like Daredevil where she would fit very well. Regardless. I just think we don’t need more when you can’t tell proper stories yet with some of the ones you already have, just a high-level opinion of where we are with the mystical beings. As much as I love them, because you also just brought Clea into the mix, and like there’s a lot happening in the mystical realm, and I’m just not sure my brain can even think to picture Maya in the middle of some of that.

Taylor: Yeah, look, I don’t disagree. I’m just trying to make lemons out of lemonade.

Katie: I get it, I get it, I just I mean, it’s hard because it is a take that I’m really I really am, guys I’m not going to lie, I’m really struggling with this. I’ve seen them change characters before, we all have. I just am struggling so hard with this because I can’t see how they’re going to keep her a little dot in existence. I just don’t see why that would be the direction they’d even want to think, to take. And to your point with Phoenix Force, it would put her on the map, it would make her bigger and the story is there, don’t get me wrong. It’s just with the way you introduce her initially, it’s just hard. Especially considering while the story’s there, I mean, the stories are there about Bucky and Natasha. Did we do that in the MCU? No. Should we have? Of course. But we didn’t. I’m just saying that just because it’s written doesn’t mean we necessarily got to do it.

Taylor: Yeah, I’ve just chosen to go the route of let’s look at the opportunities instead of the missed opportunities of the storylines that we’re not going to get. I’m just trying to think about the potential stories that we could get because otherwise I too will get very frustrated. I mean, you all, if you listened to our last episode, you heard me. I was very frustrated. I still am, but I’m trying to turn the frustration into optimism about seeing Maya again. On that note, there is one other thing that I wanted to point out when I was doing my research for this episode is that they are not saying no about a Season Two, which is interesting. Apparently, the show did exceptionally well on both Hulu and Disney Plus in terms of like, first day viewing so a lot of people were really, really into it. Now that could be interesting because as we talked about last episode, Maya is not going to stay in Tomaha. Her story is bigger than what happens in her hometown. She has a whole fight in New York that she has to fight yet, so maybe a Season Two is that kind of bridge that gets her out of Tomaha, gets her back to fighting alongside a Daredevil before she powers up, right? You talked last episode about maybe the entire season of Born Again is Matt really trying to stop Wilson Fisk from being elected mayor. Maybe we end that season on a finale of election night, fisk wins, oh my gosh, the poop is about to hit the fan. Then we go into a Season Two of Echo, and one of the first things we see is Maya finds out he’s elected mayor. She feels responsible because she didn’t take him out when she had the chance, nor did she heal him when she had the chance. And now Maya is taking her bike the exact opposite way that she took it on the intro of the Season One, and she goes all the way back to New York to take him, probably not out because I think we’re moving beyond that for her, I hope that’s part of her growth but to take him down and that’s where she works with Daredevil. And then as Maya’s story continues, we power up, we go Phoenix Force. In my head, that is the perfect trajectory for her, and that’s where I want to see her character move on now that I’ve had a few days to kind of ruminate on everything that happened.

Katie: A couple notes there. My first one is I would enjoy Season Two and I think from what I was reading, what’s interesting is they were actually saying and I don’t remember if it was like the director or the writer, but it was somebody in in the room where it all happened, Hamilton reference, I hope y’all got that. I do think they were saying they actually would love to do another season to explore more of her relationship with Kingpin. And so you saying all that for one, I agree with it but two, to me that is still the crux of this entire series. If you didn’t get that, you didn’t watch it right, because they have a very complicated relationship and that, I mean, I’m my God, it can I say complicated anymore when I talk about their relationship, like, I feel like I need a bigger word because every time I’ve been talking about it, I’m like, it’s complicated, but like, it’s more than complicated. You say it’s complicated when you have, like, a weird situationship going on. This is more than a weird situationship going on. But they were saying that would be the emphasis, like, that’s what they want to do, they want to explore that relationship more. So that brings joy to my ears because one, it is a really great relationship, she is his weakness. We see this even when he tries to turn all the tables on her, still his weakness. And on top of that, maybe it forces the powers story down the road a little longer, kind of even what you were saying, because I do think we said it at the end of Episode Five or our reactions to Four and Five, but what’s next? That was an open-ended question with Maya because we were like, well, she could appear in Daredevil: Born Again. That would be her most normal way to come back into a storyline but they left us off in a weird spot because she picked her biological family. She didn’t pick Kingpin, she didn’t go back to New York. She stayed in Oklahoma when she could have left. Granted, she could have left the next day, but we don’t know that. So I do think it’s a more natural bridge to bring her back in in Daredevil and to your point if they want to start, you know, bringing her powers to the next level or bringing that story more around, because I think we got a great introduction, now I think we need more of the facts. I mean, we got the groundwork, let’s start building upon it. I think that could be done if she makes some appearances in Daredevil and then it gets a second season, I think that works perfectly normal for me and I also would like to see her back in New York. That’s a personal thing. I enjoyed meeting her family, but I think she has a lot of unfinished business, not just with Kingpin, but in general in New York.

Taylor: Yeah, I agree, I think Maya’s story is in New York. I think the conflict at least is in New York. Sure, she can go home to Tomaha and that’s her base, right? We saw Hawkeye had his kind of secret home with his family, and that was his base. But he still went out and he fought the fight wherever the Avengers needed to fight the fight. I could see Maya having a kind of similar setup. Tomaha as the base is where her family is, where the people she loves are, but it’s also where the people she loves are that’s far away from the fight that she’s going to go fight because she brought it home to them once and I don’t think she’s going to make that mistake again. Then you add on the fact that 99% of the enemies that she made, whether she was working for Kingpin or against him, were in New York. So she’s going to have to go find that conflict again for her character to continue to remain relevant, which I hope she does and I think New York’s where it’s at and I think Tomaha has its home base.

Katie: Yeah, I agree, and actually I like to comparison to Hawkeye because he brought her in. I think it’d be kind of cool. I also, like you brought him up, I wouldn’t be against seeing him make another just tiny appearance somewhere in her story. I think they have a lot in common for a lot of different reasons, so I actually wouldn’t mind seeing someone like him be again, not a not necessarily a prominent piece, but a little bit of that mentorship in the right direction that I don’t think she really has gotten so far.

Taylor: Yeah and I think many members of her or some of the members of her family are going to provide that for her from an emotional standpoint, right? Like her grandparents, her uncle, I think they’ve all been tried, even though her uncle’s, like involved in Kingpin’s business, I think they’ve all been trying to steer her in the right direction. But I think that’s one level, the emotional but then there’s the superhero of it all, and that’s where Hawkeye can really help her hone because there’s no better vet that’s alive today than Hawkeye from a ground-level perspective. And yes, now she’s superseded him because she does have powers, but he’s fought with powered people before, obviously, so I agree, I think he could be an interesting mentor to help her go on that, we talked about her being a gray character, move more towards the light than the dark. I think that makes a lot of sense but what is cool too, even though he killed her father and that’s something they have to get over, what’s cool about him is he’s also dabbled in the dark and so he’s not a Steve Rogers who’s never made a mistake. Not that Steve is blameless at this point in the MCU, but you know what I’m saying. The idea of Steve is of the pure fighter, right? Captain America, he’s always who we always hold up as the righteous man who does the right thing but what I think can help with the Clint and Echo relationship is that he spent five years cold blood, killing people, and so he’s dabbled in the darkness. He understands it, he understands its allure, and I think it makes him more relatable to her because she obviously has spent time in the dark, too. I think that she would never be able to relate to someone like Steve but Clint’s time as Ronin makes him, though again, he killed her father during that time, makes him a little bit more like her.

Katie: Yeah, that’s kind of where I was going with that, you just kind of said it a lot more eloquently than I was going with. But yeah, I agree, I think and then too, I mean, he’s kind of the one who put that first seed in her head that what she was involved in and what she was doing was not what she thought it was. And it wasn’t this righteousness that I think she kind of thought, because that’s what Kingpin led her to always believe, he was doing the right thing. He was always doing the right thing. He pretty much murdered that guy in the alley for being rude to her because he was being rude to her versus like, maybe a nice little yelling and one punch or two would have been sufficient. Instead, he was like, let’s hospitalize him. Like, listen, good for him in that scene, I’m not going to lie. I kind of was like, you get it because who is so rude to a little girl who has a disability like that? And like, yeah, so I kind of felt for him there.

Taylor: I mean, same, but also when she walks up and kicks him and he just looks at her like child of mine, and it’s both amazing and terrifying at the same time. 

Katie: That’s what I mean. Their relationship is so complicated, but at the same time I sit there and like, I don’t know, I get so torn about it and I know everybody was like, because Maya even says, like, you never even bothered to learn like sign language for me. And yes, but I have to be honest, I didn’t say this during the reactions that I have to be honest when he rolled up with like the technology to like, do the signing, I was like, that’s lowkey so sweet though, because it wasn’t just about him. It was the fact that if she had left it in which granted, I know why she didn’t, but if she would have left it in, she could have seen anybody who talking to her without like knowing, and like obviously she is still non-verbal and so there would still be that aspect. But she at least would be able to understand everything going on around her. So I was like, that’s sweet and then everybody online was like, wow, he spent all his money to do that and he couldn’t even learn and I was like, oh, my bad. I read that wrong.

Taylor: Yeah, it’s interesting because I think when you’re introduced to them together because she’s a young girl and she clearly looks up to him and he cares so much about her, if like that and you saw them in Hawkeye too so like, you have that. But in this show, at least you’re introduced to little girl Maya and big protector Kingpin. And so even though, you know, all this stuff goes down, you know what he does to her father. You know that she shoots him in the face. Like, obviously we came in with all this knowledge. It’s still really tough because it’s like, yeah, but you also see the good stuff and then if you really want to see the best in people, even though I know Kingpin is literally human trash, you’re like, aw but like, you kind of love the idea that he has a soft spot for this one person who means everything to him. And it’s like ugh, like you kind of want to think that there’s a little bit of goodness in him but then to your point, it’s like, also you could have just put in the effort instead of just putting in the money like, there’s a difference, right? There’s a level of effort there and so it is like, I get what you’re saying because I also was like, that’s so nice but then I’m also from a more critical standpoint, I’m like, all right, but you had 16 years to learn.

Katie: Yeah. Oh no, I get and listen, I’m not the first to be like every human being is great until they prove otherwise. Not who I am but I will say I was sitting there and I was like, nothing gets me faster than a known criminal or villain who has a soft spot for, like, a child-like character in their life, like nothing. Well, not just that or you had the villain because I’m an enemy to lovers kind of person. The villain who, like, has the soft spot for like the love interest but they like might hate each other the beginning because he’s the villain, right? These are all great tropes so I think that was part of the problem because I was like, but his soft spot is this amazing little girl that he like, has learned so much that he loves and has been in her life and has watched her grow up and all this. And then I’m like, remember who this is and remember the horrible things he has done, take a step back.

Taylor: For different reasons, it’s kind of like the President Snow edits coming out of The Ballad of Songbirds and Snakes. But instead of him being hot, it’s just that he has a soft spot for a little kid, but like, at the same time, you’re like aw, you know?

Katie: Yeah, well, okay, everybody, let’s preface it by first saying, the movie is not the same as the book. If you read the book, we do not like that Snow. But the movie did not do his inner monologue.

Taylor: No, if you could read that man’s thoughts, you would not be swooning. Thank God I read the book first.

Katie: Exactly.

Taylor: I rolled out of that film and they were like, oh my gosh, he’s so misunderstood and I’m like, but no, he’s literally so possessive of her. It’s so creepy.

Katie: Not even I was like, he’s literally not like he is messed up and calculating and he will get what he wants in the long run no matter what happens, like, don’t be swayed. But the movie swayed and so we must put that out there on the record that there are two different Coriolanus Snow’s out there, okay, thank you. That’s all, that’s the mic drop for the night.

Taylor: And now we’re turning to our regularly scheduled programming. I don’t know about you, Kate, but I think this deep dive into all things Maya that this episode has come to be, I’m good it’s all I want to talk about for now, other than to say we are excited to see Maya in the future and whatever that future holds for her, she’s going to take it down and kick its’ butt because she’s a baddie and she’s awesome.

Katie: Two baddies, two baddies, one Porsche.

Taylor: I can’t. 

Katie: If anybody gets that reference. But no, I’m good, we are good, don’t worry. I think this has been a great episode. Maya is a great character and while I don’t know how I feel, about the direction she’s going to go, I’m going to love her regardless.

Taylor: So if you are looking to continue with us as we cover whatever Maya does next or in the future, or whatever projects come between us and Maya the next time we see her, make sure that you are subscribing on your podcast platform of choice, checking out the website which is the hub of all things Sisters Assembled and supporting the show, if that’s something that you would be so kind as to consider.

Katie: You can also give us a follow on Twitter at SisAssembledPod or Instagram and Threads at Sisters Assembled. You can also subscribe to us on our YouTube channel, Sisters Assembled, and just keep up with the show, keep up with us as we’re doing all sorts of adventures and awesome things as new episodes are coming out. Next week, we are going to do another little Echo spin-off sort of episode, and this time we are going to focus on the other half of that complicated relationship, aka Kingpin, and we’re going to talk about his future a little bit in the MCU, that includes Daredevil, maybe a Spider-Man. We did talk a little bit about it, just what it’s been setting up, but we’re going to go really deep into it next week, so stick around for that one, and get ready. As always, keep up with everything that Marvel’s thrown your way and what we are as well because Marvel just blew your mind, so let’s talk about it.