Transcript

Taylor: Hello, listeners, and welcome to another episode of Sisters Assembled. We have another Echo-related episode for you all today, focusing on the main antagonist of the series, who is of course Kingpin, and related to him, where he might be going in Daredevil: Born Again, and some of the potential storylines that might come out of that show. I know we talked about it a little bit in our last episode, but we definitely wanted to spend the time blowing out a little bit more of the details, because there’s a lot here, and it could have some serious ramifications for the MCU moving forward, so we thought it was a good time to just really dive deep. So with all that being said, I’m gonna let Katie go ahead and start the episode. 

Katie: Do you ever do some of your research or like, I guess I should say, do you ever do some reading in general and you’re just like, I’m stupid when you read it?

Taylor: Literally all the time. What specifically is this about? 

Katie: Oh, well, I ask that because I thought I was really smart with my theories, and listen again, we’ve said this so many times, Marvel takes their own storylines from their own comics. Or I should say, the MCU takes their own storylines from their own comics and runs in whatever direction they want to run and that’s fine, that’s great, that’s dandy. But I think I was doing my research on the Kingpin mayor storyline because that’s what we’re going towards and we know that we, to your point, talked about it a little bit in our Echo reactions and in some of our subsequent coverage from there. And you know what? I could actually see them adopting this entire storyline for the most part because all our key players are there with technically the exception of Spider-Man but I could see where he fits into the storyline. 

Taylor: Yeah, no, I think you hit it on the money because when I was doing my research too, and I had done a little bit of research right after finishing Echo, I was kind of poking around. I talked about this because I wasn’t sure how I felt about it, so I was poking around on the internet to see how other people were feeling. And this was one of the things that was popping up was, oh, what does this mean? And I was like, oh my gosh, this whole storyline is great but what really struck me then, and even more so when I did the full deep dive, is that this fits so much. It’s almost like the perfect keyhole for all of the different keys we’ve got going on and that’s why I think it, just to your point, kind of smacks you over the head when you actually think about this storyline, you’re like, oh my gosh, this fits everything. It fits where we are with the reboot, not the reboot, but the restart with Spider-Man. It fits with Daredevil coming back. It fits with now what we’ve seen in Echo and the hint of Kingpin coming back into New York and taking over. It fits with the canonization of the Defenders universe, because we’ll get to who becomes mayor after Kingpin, and there are just so many pieces, and there are some that may or may not fit, and we’ll get into those as well but there are so many pieces that fit so nicely into this. One of the things that I loved the most when I was reading was one of the articles talking about how Kingpin is going to be like this connecting thread through the street-level heroes, and really be the main antagonist and they called him the Thanos of our street level heroes and I literally fell over. I was like, you go off article writer because that is so right and that’s what we needed to really build out this segment of the universe. All the articles were like, we’re going Multiverse, we’re going space and all that good stuff and that’s fun, it’s fun as heck. We’ve spent so many episodes talking about all that stuff, but now it’s time to give the street-level heroes their time in the spotlight, and Kingpin is going to be the guy who unifies them all. 

Katie: Well, and how many times have we even sat here and said, listen, I’m tired of knowing Spider-Man exists and Kate Bishop’s running around New York, and there’s been quite a few heroes, I know they were a little wonky for a while because we did have Spider-Man running around with Iron Man and so on and so on. So we did have quite a few that were just in a lot of different character places, but we still were like Doctor Strange, there’s one that I was like, there’s a big one I’m thinking of, and we’re just ignoring that, he doesn’t really involve himself in this part, or Spider-Man, for some reason, doesn’t answer that call cause what is he saying, oh, the Sanctum Santorum is over there. They got it covered, I don’t have to like, you know what I mean? It just felt really weird. So if that is true, if this is going to be Kingpin’s moment to help bring these characters together, amazing because that’s what we need. They’re literally all right there. But to your point, this story has layers and I think the best way to do it is I have it broken down into 5 or 6 points, summarization points, because quite frankly, there are parts we don’t need to get into. It’s a little wonky, there are some stray parts to the story, but if we really go down to its core, I think the best way to cover this is I’ll read my notes, we discuss it, we talk about how we think it could play out in the current MCU, and then we go on to the next one. Cool?

Taylor: Works for me, let’s do it. 

Katie: Awesome. So I have my notes starting when he is actually elected mayor because I think I’m going to step back my theory from an episode or two ago. I’m actually not sure we’re ever going to see him run for mayor. We might skip this step, so actually, let’s start there. 

Taylor: Interesting. Okay, okay, I think I disagree because I don’t think it’s going to be all one or all the other. I don’t think we’re going to get the entire series of him running for mayor, nor do I think he’s going to be mayor the entire series. I could see and remember this is a 13 to 18-episode run. We’re not doing this in six now, which thank goodness, I think we’re all done with six and even nine, I think we’re all done with nine. We have 13 to 18 thereabouts episodes to play with. I could see them having the campaign run Episode One, Two, and maybe even Three. He’s elected, and now we’ve established the tension. We’ve seen Matt try to oppose him both probably as Daredevil and Matt Murdock legally. I was forgetting this, but you know, at the end of Season Three of Daredevil or at some point during Daredevil, I don’t actually remember which part, Kingpin is out in the open as a villain because Matt Murdock/Daredevil basically makes it apparent that Wilson Fisk is not an upstanding citizen. So obviously that plays into the mayor’s storyline, but you need to kind of bridge that gap then, between what the public knows about Wilson Fisk and electing him mayor and so I think that’s what Episodes One, Two, maybe Three get into. What are his campaign lines? What is he running on? You know, what are those messages that he’s giving New Yorkers to make them forget, conveniently, that he is actually a crime boss and make him seem like a viable option for mayor? So I think that’s where I’m leaning and then we get the last 10 to 15, however many episodes are left with him as mayor. All the things that he is going to do and I think I kind of have an idea of what that culminating moment is but we’ll get to that in a minute. And that’s where I think then Daredevil becomes a springboard for things like Spider-Man 4 and, you know, potentially even the Young Avengers, because as the articles that I was reading were pointing out Kate’s in New York, Kamala is in Jersey City like it’s not-.

Katie: Well Kate’s mom was working with Kingpin so let’s not forget that. That’s literally why he was in Hawkeye. 

Taylor: Exactly, so there’s a connection there too but then also just for the Young Avengers, geographically, they’re in the same spot. I know Cassie’s, you know, across the country, but her dad’s an Avenger, he’s a superhero. She can go wherever the heck she wants.

Katie: She is a superhero nepo baby at her finest. 

Taylor: Truly. Cassie Lang, the OG MCU nepo baby. 

Katie: No, that’s Hope van Dyne. That’s the OG nepo baby right there. 

Taylor: You’re so right.

Katie: Wait, no, that’s Tony Stark. Tony Stark is the O.G. nepo baby. 

Taylor: Okay, so Cassie’s not that special as a nepo baby, but she’s the current biggest nepo baby, let’s just put it out that way. So, yes, we have potentially even the Young Avengers and Daredevil and the storyline of Kingpin becoming mayor is a great springboard for all of those stories. And by unification, I just want to clarify, I’m not saying let’s have this huge team-up with Daredevil and the Young Avengers and Spider-Man. No, no, we don’t need it. But what we do need is one common villain like Kingpin exists simultaneously as a Spider-Man villain and as a Daredevil villain in the comics, and they’re not always together. It can be that way, too.

Katie: But they should also overlap at times, and I think that’s kind of where you’re going with it at the end of the day, and we’ve always said this even about geolocation, why are we not seeing some of these heroes overlap with one another when they live in the exact same city? And listen, you can say New York is big and it is but at the end of the day, if you really look at how much like how many miles that island is, it’s not that big. And if you’re thinking, well, there’s an alien attacking near Penn Station, I’m not sure that, it’s not as if we can’t have Daredevil and Spider-Man both kind of be on the scene.

Taylor: Yeah.

Katie: They’re not splitting up the city and they’re like, my bad, I’m only on the Upper East Side, and you can be over, like, that’s not what they’re doing. They’re not having these conversations behind the scenes.

Taylor: Well, not to mention now that Spider-Man is in Manhattan, whereas previously he was in another borough that could almost make a little bit more sense because there are these defined lines between Queens and Manhattan. That’s why they’re separate boroughs. But now we see Peter operating in Manhattan at the end of his third movie. We know Kate lives in Manhattan because of Hawkeye. Yes, Kamala is technically in another state, but from Jersey City to New York, you take the Path train, it’s like ten minutes like she’s right there. Again, the only person geographically who we’re talking about here who has an issue is Cassie but I don’t really think that’s that much of an issue. She’s literally the daughter of a famous Avenger. Geography is not a thing for them. They just hop in Quinjets and they’re fine. I mean, that’s maybe from a bygone era, but you all know what I mean. 

Katie: Yeah, I want to go back, I want to circle back to what you were saying as far as part of Daredevil, we might get the election, the other part, we might get Mayor Kingpin. I like that, and I think my brain was cornering properties and saying, this one can’t do both and I don’t think I was allowing myself to think about the fact that it could. I like that a lot. I will endorse that theory because I think we do need some sort of I don’t want to say this is almost as like a slip and slide, but it is. We’re at the top of the slip and slide, and I kind of still need the journey down before we end up in the pool of water at the bottom, so I’m okay with that theory. Getting into our points, our storyline of Mayor Kingpin, we’re going to start with his election. He is elected and ironically enough and I say ironically, it’s not ironic at all, Matt Murdock, our good friend Daredevil, gains the position of deputy mayor in order to keep an eye on Kingpin in the mayor position.

Taylor: Yes. Oh, man, I can’t wait for this because one, they freaking hate each other, like they just really despise one another. And if you all remember the most, I don’t know if it was the most recent season, but I think it was Season Three, Daredevil, he’s been unmasked, man, like Kingpin knows who he is. Matt Murdock’s fooling nobody named Wilson Fisk when he rolls on up into work and says, hi, mayor and the mayor’s looking at him like, I hate you, you’re Daredevil. Like, there is no confusion there about who each one is, so that’s interesting. But then on an entertainment level, you add the sass level of Matt Murdock and you’re like, this is going to be the most entertaining bit of television that I will see in the year 2025, so I’m very excited about that. And you know, I think it just opens a lot of really interesting character doors. I mean, these two dudes have gone at it now for three seasons and it never gets old. They always find new ways to antagonize, to hurt, to borderline demolish one another both emotionally and physically and I just think there are so many interesting layers to being able to do that as colleagues, so bring it on. I love this new relationship dynamic. 

Katie: It’s going to be interesting because obviously, as I said, I will be watching Daredevil, the Netflix part in preparation. It’s also been on my list, of course, to watch. I’ll be intrigued to see those who don’t watch it and how this all plays into the Marvel version, because yes, they’ve canonized it, however, I will be intrigued to see what that connection looks like for Marvel and if they’re going to make this relationship, I don’t want to say simplified, but easier for somebody who maybe didn’t go watch those Netflix series or those Netflix seasons to understand the dynamic, because you do, and you just said it. You know what these two are like with each other, you know that Daredevil has been unmasked. This is going to be a very interesting dynamic when, yes, they’re colleagues now, but this is also a public office. There is a very deep layer there to unpack. So I’m actually to me, that opens the door of what and how is Marvel going to handle this for maybe viewers who aren’t necessarily planning to watch the rest of Daredevil. Because this could be done very interestingly.

Taylor: Yeah. That’s tough because, to your point, they canonized it, which means not only is it that the three seasons of Daredevil are canon, but so is everything in the Defenders universe, and you might be like, well, why do I need to watch Jessica Jones in order to understand Daredevil? Here’s why, if you don’t understand Jessica Jones, you don’t understand how she got into The Defenders crossover mini-series. If you don’t watch the Defenders crossover mini-series, none of Season Three of Daredevil makes any sense because spoiler, sorry, it came out like five years ago, but he literally dies slash they all think he’s dead and he hides the fact that he’s alive for a significant amount of time. But he could only do that because he sacrificed himself during the end battle of the Defenders’ crossover. So it’s not just that you have to watch three seasons of Daredevil, it’s that you have to watch three seasons of Daredevil, two seasons of The Punisher, who’s also in the show, by the way, so that’s absolutely required reading, two seasons of Iron Fist, two seasons of Luke Cage, and two seasons of Jessica Jones, plus the other Defenders’ crossover mini-series. So yeah, it took me nine months and I really like TV, so like and it’s not that they weren’t good, except for maybe the second season of Iron Fist, that one took me a really long time, but in like nine months just to watch, like 60 or 70 episodes of television so that’s my soapbox. But to answer your question directly, I think, I think they almost have to do like some sort of I don’t want to say like a recap because that sounds stupid and cheesy, but like, they have to do something because you have to understand, I think the strength of the dynamic between these two at this point is all of the history between them. They had chemistry from the get-go, don’t get me wrong but now it’s years and years of antagonizing each other. That’s where the real intensity, I think is going to come from. So you have to find some way to catch these watchers up with why these two hate each other so much, and the different ways that they have hurt each other so deeply in order to understand why the level of intensity starts at like an 11, and we’re not going to ratchet up from two, we’re going to start ready to go. 

Katie: Well, because you have to think from my perspective, now of course, I obviously am aware of the Daredevil show and again, will be watching it. But from my perspective or I should not even say from my perspective, because I’m a little too in the weeds to say that. But for somebody who’s kind of just casually watching everything, maybe not as aggressive about it as we are, they’ve seen Matt Murdock, what, three times? And the only time that he’s been connected to Kingpin is in Echo which came out three weeks ago. So, I mean, I agree, I feel like there’s got to be something there because I can’t see, Marvel doesn’t like to do the whole everybody needs to go watch this because we saw how they kind of, it was almost a joke that they did that for Secret Invasion, because what was the purpose? I mean, I watched Agents of SHIELD, but what was the purpose? We had no reason to watch that. So I think that is kind of a weird gray area for Marvel, they don’t really like directing people to shows they didn’t fully bring to the table and so yeah, I’ll be intrigued on where that goes. But on to the next part of the story, our buddy Matt finds Mayor Fisk up to no good as we knew he would. 

Taylor: Shocker.

Katie: I know I’m thrown away, I am falling off my seat and he is having a meeting with New York crime lords. What else is new? And Fisk is then removed from office. This is the next part of our story. 

Taylor: Yes and you know who goes into office instead?

Katie: That is the next part of the story.

Taylor: Oh, no. What did I miss? 

Katie: That’s the next point. Those were broken up for specific reason. 

Taylor: Oh. Oh, I’m sorry. I’m sorry. 

Katie: Because they both are heavy in their own ways. So first off, the one we just spoke of, Kingpin was never going to be straight-laced. But you were saying he’s already been exposed to New York, so why does it matter? Why should we care he’s meeting with crime lords?

Taylor: Good question, good, good question. I think there’s a layer of complication here in the way that they’re adapting the storyline because to give a little bit of context, the way that he is able to kind of endear himself to the New York people, the citizens of New York, is that they were coming out of a very dark time in which I think they were like occupied by Hydra or something.

Katie: They were. 

Taylor: Yeah, I don’t remember exactly what the comic event was called, but during that time he was, I’m sure, doing his crime lord stuff, but he was also giving aid and providing support and actually doing good things. So think about we talk about it on the show all the time, the idea of recency bias, like, yeah, this dude’s a turd and yeah, he’s a crime boss but in our time of need, he stepped up and he helped the community and he used his resources for good. And memories are short and so I think that’s kind of how he turned the tide, well, that’s how he turns the tide in the comics. How he does it here, I couldn’t tell you. That’s where I’m saying it’s complicated because it’s clear in the comics that he was able to use his acts of public good to then turn the opinion in his favor. How he does that here, I don’t know and I think that goes to your question then, of why should people care that he’s a crime boss? Well, I think I need to understand why they didn’t care and elected him in the first place.

Katie: So that brings up my portion of the thought process, which is kind of why I wanted these two areas to be split because I thought this could be heavy on its own. I think it comes down to understanding the timeline of events, and I hate that because I’m so sick and tired of trying to figure out where everything fits. And now, when you are, it’s not retconning, but you get the, it’s the same gist when you’re bringing in these Netflix shows and you’re like, oh, by the way, though, they are a part of this. And it’s like, really? That’s awesome, because I get you don’t want this stuff just floating out there, and now you can bring it in and you can bring those characters in and whatever, but then you’re also sitting there trying to be like, so in all of this and I keep thinking of Agents of SHIELD with the Gravitonium or whatever it is, and how that just went way far away and we were like, oh, no, Avengers are answering that call for unknown reasons, but like, go off, I just where are we? Because has it been before the Blip? Remember the Snap and Blip took five years and then now think about it obviously we know Echo bumps right up against Hawkeye, that was made pretty clear to us. But Hawkeye is supposed to be 2023, right? 2024, if that?

Taylor: I think it’s 2024 because I remember at the time when it came out, which was 2021, we all were like, oh my gosh, that’s so far in the future. 

Katie: Look at us now.

Taylor: I’m like, oh my God.

Katie: Look at us. 

Taylor: But yeah, I know, I know, I think it was 2024. 

Katie: Okay, so think about that. We are what that’s 7 am I mathing right? That’s seven years, eight years I don’t know. No wait no no no no wait.

Taylor: We’re one year post Blip. Six years post-Snap, one-year post-Blip. 

Katie: They really screwed up with doing the time off. They should have just left us in the year we were in.

Taylor: I know and now that we’re caught up, they’re even pushing us further and I just can’t.

Katie: That’s what I mean. It’s ever since we’ve come back because obviously Covid, we had a break I don’t know why they did that, but whatever. So I guess my understanding is if it’s been like six years, I can get people kind of to your point, forgetting about it and being like, actually, this outspoken guy who’s clearly prepared to fight for the city because that’s what they let us up and started to make us think in Echo is totally gonna help us and we’re voting him in and we don’t really care that six years ago we found out he was a massive crime lord. Maybe they’re like, he’s redeemed himself. He’s gone through the redemption arc, they don’t know. 

Taylor: Or maybe to your point, we don’t know what he was up to during the Blip. Maybe the Blip is the equivalent of the occupation of New York and maybe he was out there providing support, helping to keep things running. We saw in the first hour or so of Endgame how drastically the world had changed and had to adapt in order to basically survive with half the population, because even though we had more resources, the infrastructure requires human maintenance and it requires a certain number of humans to do said maintenance. And so maybe it’s him using his resources to help keep things going, help New York survive, and that’s what they remember. Sure, yeah, he was named as a crime lord, but then half the population went away, and then he stepped up and he saved us and then half the population came back. So now we’ve had two major life events since he, you know, did that or was named as a crime lord and was sent to jail, and in the meantime, to your point, he redeemed himself. He showed himself a valuable member of the community, memories are short, maybe that’s how they do it and maybe those are the sympathizers he plays on. 

Katie: I like it and I also just want to say this and I don’t really need an answer. I just want to put it on a recording. I wonder if we’re going to get confirmation about if Matt snapped or not because it would make a lot of sense if he actually did. 

Taylor: He didn’t. 

Katie: How do we know? 

Taylor: Because he fights Echo during the Blip, that fight took place during the Blip. Oh no, maybe, yeah, yeah, it would have been during the Blip. 

Katie: No. 

Taylor: Yes. 

Katie: Because that was after she lost her dad.

Taylor: When he was Ronin during the Blip.

Katie: No, that was during Hawkeye. Did he kill her dad during Hawkeye? 

Taylor: No, that was a flashback. 

Katie: How many times did we flashback? 

Taylor: A lot. He was not Ronin after Endgame when Natasha saved him because that’s his speech to her where he says someone came and saved me. He killed her father as Ronin, which means her father was murdered during the Blip.

Katie: Yeah, but she still could have fought Daredevil after. 

Taylor: Yes, that’s possible, you’re right. But a lot of people believe it was during the Blip. 

Katie: You know why I don’t remember that? Because they put a flashback in a flashback in Echo. 

Taylor: I know, I know.

Katie: That’s why I didn’t remember that. Oh, geez. I mean, she still could have fought him after the fact.

Taylor: Yeah. 

Katie: That is a possibility.

Taylor: I think right now the majority consensus is that it was during the Blip. There’s no concrete proof, but a lot of people are saying that that battle happened during the Blip and that that’s proof that Matt Murdock did not get snapped. 

Katie: I really need and I’ve said this so many times, I need Marvel to come out with a roster. Yes, no, just who Blipped and who did it. 

Taylor: Well, they had that scene of the yes, no, yes, no, but they only had the known characters at the time.

Katie: Right, I need like all of them because you got to introduce all these characters like I know Yelena did, that’s really important to her character. 

Taylor: Yeah, it is. 

Katie: And so I need to understand that. I won’t be too shocked, honestly, if that’s a way she’s able to build a relationship with somebody like Bucky. Between their shared past and the fact that it was very traumatic for both of them to then be snapped into oblivion, that’s important. And so, I just need, like, a full-on, like, all new characters, I need their status of who made it through and lived the past five years and who didn’t. 

Taylor: But I do just want to say, you know, maybe that’s something that will be addressed in Born Again, because neither one of, I should say Kingpin didn’t address it in Echo. But maybe they will discuss it, especially if he’s running on what he did during the Blip, that’s going to be proof positive. And from there, we’ll probably get Matt’s reaction to whatever happened during the Blip and there you go, that’s proof. I just think we haven’t spent enough time with Matt since he’s, quote-unquote, come back for us to truly know whether or not he was snapped.

Katie: I just think it’s so hard because it adds such a dense part to anybody’s story. And I think it’s really difficult to just kind of like Marvel’s barreling ahead with some of their characters like Shang-Chi barreling ahead. I just think we need to understand because those are life-shaping moments for everybody, whether you were snapped or not. And when you have shows like The Falcon and Winter Soldier who almost focus on it and how it changed the world, like, come on. 

Taylor: Or you have characters like Monica who are irrevocably changed because of it, because she missed the death of her mother and that drives her. 

Katie: Look at you, Yeena, who did the same thing and the first thing that she came back from was, I got to see my sister and her sister’s dead. I just it’s really hard.

Taylor: Or Shuri. 

Katie: Well, right. I feel like they use it as a plot point when it’s important and when it’s not, it’s just kind of in the background. I need to understand at all times who snapped and who didn’t. I’m sorry, I do, it’s very important for the timeline and it’s very important for this storyline. I need to understand for sure if Daredevil did, maybe for all we know, well, I guess not because of the flashbacks in the flashback during that time, I guess Kingpin didn’t snap right? 

Taylor: They either both snapped or they both didn’t snap like it wasn’t one or the other because you hear him say, like Maya reports back and you hear him say to her, nobody’s ever stood up to him. So they’re either both snapped or neither snapped like it’s not one did one and one did the other. 

Katie: Right. Well, that’s what I mean, it’s still important to understand. All right, anyway, I digress on a tangent of frustration. The next part of our story goes Matt, who was deputy mayor, now becomes mayor of New York City in the interim until Kingpin returns to the position and when he does return, the two call a truce with one another. This feels like a great storytale.

Taylor: I know, I mean, when pigs fly, when pigs fly, like, I don’t know. I don’t know what to say. I truly like having watched the show, I’ve talked about their intense level of hatred for one another. So I just it will take a lot of story for me to go there and heck, maybe they won’t go there. In fact, I’d be happy if they didn’t. 

Katie: Do we see Matt actually stepping in as mayor during that time? 

Taylor: I don’t think they’re going to go that far, because I think there’s something else that Wilson Fisk does during his mayoral-.

Katie: Well he does it next. It’s the next part of the story, actually.

Taylor: I know, I know, and I think this is going to be the focus because it’s going to be the focus of the back half of Daredevil, and it’s going to be the focus that’s going to affect any New York-based hero moving forward, so take it away. 

Katie: So our good buddy Mayor Fisk, after coming back into the office and calling a truce with Daredevil, Matt Murdock, declares that all vigilante superheroes are now illegal in New York City and obviously this affects Daredevil, but it affects our buddy Spider-Man. 

Taylor: Yes, and the prevailing theories that I’ve been reading online are saying that this will be the main storyline of Spider-Man four.

Kaite: Yep and I see that 100%. 

Taylor: Oh, totally and irrevocably agree. 

Katie: As soon as I read it, I was like, yep, this is Spider-Man 4 right here. 

Taylor: Yeah, yeah. The only thing I will say, the only caveat is that, of course, we know that Spider-Man 4 is not written yet because Tom has not officially officially signed on because as we’ve talked about, he wants to be really smart and intentional about the stories that are told with Spider-Man, which I agree, because look at some of the stories that are being told in the anti-hero realm. We need to be smart and intentional, and if the actor is going to take that upon himself, to hold the studios accountable and make sure that these stories need to be told, you be the steward of this character, Tom Holland. But I say all that to say, it’s not set in stone. Now, with that, I do think this is the most logical progression of this storyline in the way that Echo springs off of Hawkeye, and Daredevil: Born Again is going to spring off of Echo. Spider-Man 4 is going to spring off of Daredevil: Born Again. It all just cascades into one thing and another. And you know, it’s not a coincidence, then, that Hawkeye and Spider-Man 3 came out at the same time. We all thought there was going to be some crossover, maybe not direct crossover, but maybe there’s an evolution there. Storylines that were set up in that show going on two and a half, three years ago, are now going to pay off in a Spider-Man movie that’s going to come out in 26, 27, 28. I love to see these long-term, you know, storylines, the seeds that are planted so far ahead. That’s what made Phases One through Three so special these things that we weren’t thinking about at the time, the way that they evolve into these major moments further down the line. I think that’s what we’re missing. I think a lot of people would agree that Phases Four and thus far in Five are this long-term thinking. It’s been so many one-piece or one-off properties. Fine, we’re laying the groundwork, that’s great. But show me the results of the seeds are laying, and I think this is the perfect opportunity to do it with some of your biggest and most beloved characters. 

Katie: It’s funny you say that because I actually think they do it best with relatively ground-level heroes and I’m thinking to your point, think of Phases One through Three. Most of that was pretty ground-level. I mean, that’s why Thanos comes to Earth, right? We’re not fighting, well, yeah, they fought Thanos on a different planet at one point, but he comes to Earth at the end of the day. It’s the Battle of Earth and so I think they do it a lot better with the ground level. I think it’s easier to connect the ground level because you don’t need to create a whole storyline to be like, the special bracelet connects this special thing to this special person. We don’t need to go down this entire road of trying to figure it out or trying to figure out the Multiverse while we’re at it. You just be like, oh, this person, same location. Oh, that person knew this person so Kevin Bacon, which is ironic in a lot of different ways in this conversation but Kevin Bacon, you know, six degrees of separation or whatever, there you go. And so I hope that’s where we’re going with this. As soon as I read it, like I said, I was like, this is a perfect Spider-Man storyline. This is how you bring him in again as the new he’s being reborn. This is his new start. I think you could easily have Daredevil in there for a little bit, if you want to, that works for me. I don’t know who else is going to be considered a vigilante hero at the time.

Taylor: Are there any Young Avengers in the area?

Katie: Well, and they might not be, I don’t know what Kingpin’s definition of vigilante hero is going to be either, because that could be a little complicated. I mean, regardless, you could have the Young Avengers. We could get some others that are New York-bound. We’re not used to seeing because maybe we have it yet and this could be a really cool way to start, you were talking about kind of laying the groundwork, I think even after this, there are a lot of ways to lay the groundwork for other heroes to come even afterward. 

Taylor: Yeah, for sure and I think, you know, we talked a lot at the beginning of the episode about the Defenders and that whole storyline. Well, those are three more heroes who were based in New York, plus The Punisher makes four. So now you have all of that, and now that’s a continuation of perhaps those storylines because you’re now affecting them and their ability to save their respective neighborhoods because of this vigilante law or antivigilante law. 

Katie: Well, let’s talk about them to finish our fairy tale here. Mayor Fisk, believe it or not, is able to go up for reelection. Shocking. And he goes up against Luke Cage who you all should recognize that name.

Taylor: Not Nick Cage, not Nick Cage.

Katie: Okay, listen, although the guy who plays Luke Cage is a Rutgers alum just like Sebastian Stan so I stand by that, even if I said the wrong thing. I knew it was still like the name was right. 

Taylor: I was like, and it took me a minute. I was like, what is going on here? 

Katie: The name was right just about the wrong person. But yes, Luke Cage goes up against Mayor Fisk during his reelection run. This is where I cut out some of the mystical crap that goes on because there is some muddling that goes on in this area. But to sum it down, Luke does get elected as mayor, but primarily after Kingpin actually flees to Krakoa, which should sound pretty familiar to y’all with his mutant wife, which is why he’s able to go there and that’s how Luke gets into the mayorship. He isn’t actually voted in. He just doesn’t have an opponent by the end of it. So a lot of layers on that last little finale there.

Taylor: So many things to break down. I’m going to start with my favorite, which is Luke Cage, because guys if you have not watched Mike Colter as Luke Cage, that dude was born to play that character like he is so good. He’s so funny, he interacts so well with the other Defenders. Also, we’ve talked in past episodes about how we don’t have enough romance in Marvel and you know what? He and Jessica Jones are happily married at least in 99% of the stories that I’ve heard. I don’t know if they’re still married, because that always changes, just in general Marvel’s always changing relationships, but they are a very famous comic couple. I would love to see that come to life. 

Katie: I did not know that. 

Taylor: Yes, they are married.

Katie: Interesting. Yeah, I really didn’t know that. I don’t know a lot about the Defenders, though.

Taylor: Yeah, well, they’re not married in the Defenders show. They sleep together a couple of times, but they don’t actually, they don’t date or anything. She actually killed his wife in the Defenders show but his wife was not all she cracked up to be so there’s like, a lot there. But anyway, just a quick little rundown. 

Katie: That’s a seven-layer dip right there. 

Taylor: I know it’s it’s very meaty, you know, that whole storyline. But yeah, I would love to see him. I think he’s great. I want him to come back. I want all of the Defenders to come back but I love the idea of him being mayor. I think one of the interesting things that happens in his show as well is people really do see him and this goes through various different iterations and perceptions but at various points, he is considered like a big hero figure for the people of Harlem. And so he has at times had this really positive public perception. So I could see him being a mayoral figure because he has done so much for his neighborhood there. So there’s a lot that I think could be done here and I want Mike Colter back so yeah. And then to your second point about Krakoa, I mean, I can’t I like that a lot. It’s not Vanessa, right?

Kaite: No, I want to say her name was Typhoid Mary, actually, and she’s a mutant and that’s how they’re able to go to Krakoa. 

Taylor: Wow, he marries typhoid Mary?

Katie: Yeah, yeah, yes he does and they again flee to Krakoa.

Taylor: I’m still stuck on the Typhoid Mary part, but okay, cool. Knowing that we don’t have Krakoa yet, yet, I don’t know that we are going to go that far. Or if we do, it’s going to be a few years down the road. 

Katie: Well keep in mind if we logically do follow the time frame of a mayoral term, that’s what 4 years they get either reelected or it goes to election every 4 years, right? It’s like the president. Or are they 6?

Taylor: It’s either 4 or 6. Either way, it’s a long time. 

Katie: Yeah, either way, my point being made of we have plenty of time there. We have either 4 to 6 years to logically tell this story and several others before we even get there. And if you think the mutants, theoretically at least the bigger group of mutants could be showing up within the next two years, even less maybe. I mean, I don’t know if we’re as far from the storyline of Krakoa as we think, and then, of course, we have that time buffer, theoretically.

Taylor: Yeah. I just I guess when I think of Krakoa, that’s like established, established mutants, like you don’t just like wake up one day and have mutants and and suddenly you have Krakoa. That takes some time even beyond when you get the mutants, but I digress, I don’t think it’s off the table. I just am not even remotely thinking that far ahead. I’m just really excited about the opportunities that this brings up to bring back some of these heroes that we’ve seen. Like I said, I’ve really enjoyed the Defenders universe, even though it took me a really, really long time to finish it. It’s just because there are so many episodes and so knowing that we’re getting Daredevil back and getting The Punisher back, I would love to bring back the other three. And so I’m just excited about the possibility of having these characters back, continuing their stories, and seeing what new characters they have the opportunity to interact with that they couldn’t in the Netflix shows, because so many doors are opening for us now that we have a much more unified universe through Disney Plus and all of that good stuff and the Fox merger, and I’m ready for it all to start actually coming together.

Katie: And it all comes together through Kingpin. And that’s why I think and like I said, starting the episode, I said, sometimes you read something and it just makes sense and to me, for the most part, this storyline just makes sense. This is what they’re setting up. This is the direction they’re going, whether or not they’re going to play out the entire thing, again, they might not do any of this, but it actually does work very well if they want to. And again, it’s all through Kingpin as it should be in a city like New York. He runs that place whether it is as a mayor or not. He runs that city and so those heroes all should very presently have to deal with him. You talked about Spider-Man, great example. Maybe he was in Queens before, but now he isn’t. He’d be a great one, and again, Kingpin is a huge Spider-Man villain. I still remember him from the animated show, it’s stuck in my head. So to never allow that to happen would be a crime against humanity.

Taylor: Or maybe just comics fans.

Katie:: It would feel like a crime on humanity. 

Taylor: Sure. I do want to say I feel like we did when we were talking about Secret Wars before it got confirmed, where everybody was kind of saying, hey, I think this is where it’s going to go and all the articles were talking about it and things we’re trying to piece together, and people like us were doing their deep dives to talk about all the different elements that we were going to bring in. It feels like that moment where we are really as a fandom, we’re figuring it out. I mean, they pretty much led the horse to water with the last scene, I get it.

Katie: We’re figuring out the bigger part of the story because, I mean, we all could sit there and be like, so he’s going to go try and be mayor, okay? That’s what they told us, that was the point of telling us that. But really getting into the weeds of it and being like, hold on, if you look at the storyline, this is a gold mine. 

Taylor: Yeah, exactly and it’s those threads that we’re starting to put together as a fandom where we’re saying, oh, it doesn’t just mean he’s mayor. It also connects to this and we can bring in this character and the one thing that I’m shocked you didn’t talk about that I don’t want to miss before we end this episode is, that he has his own team of Thunderbolts that he uses to enforce his anti vigilante law. 

Katie: I’m going to be honest, I didn’t apparently get that deep into that because they didn’t know that.

Taylor Yes and US Agent and I believe Taskmaster are both on that team.

Katie: That doesn’t shock me that US Agent ended up there.

Taylor: I know John is out for hire. 

Katie: John, what are you doing, John? 

Taylor: John, you’re doing great. But I will say-.

Katie: Jonathan.

Taylor: A lot of articles that I was reading we’re talking about how they don’t think that they’re going to go that direction, just based on the level at which the Thunderbolts are operating and some of the characters, right? Bucky’s obviously gone straight,  Yelena has gone straight. Red Guardian is probably going to follow Yelena and go straight, that’s his daughter. 

Katie: He’s probably going to follow Bucky. If we want to be true to his character, he’ll probably follow Bucky.

Taylor: Right but also other than Molina, who we don’t know where she is right now, Yelena is his only family left. Natasha is gone and they had that important bonding moment through Black Widow, where they came together and worked through it all as a family so I think he’s going to follow her. And the reason I’m saying all this is those characters to me, I find it difficult to see them then willingly going and working for a Wilson Fisk. And that’s what a lot of the articles were saying too, that for them to go in and not just work for Wilson Fisk, but to go against actual heroes, people who, despite the fact that they’re working outside the law, are doing good. I don’t see Bucky doing it. I don’t see Yelena doing it. I don’t see Red Guardian doing it.

Katie: Well, Bucky wouldn’t cause here’s the thing. He might not remember, well, here’s to the paper why he won’t. He might not remember and actually, I’m not sure if he ever saw Peter unmasked as Spider-Man, but he still fought Spider-Man. He’s not and granted, I know that might set up to be like, well, he fought Spider-Man, so why wouldn’t he fight him again? But he fought him because they were on different sides during Civil War, of course. I mean, Peter didn’t even know why he was there and so at the end of the day, like, he’s not going to sit here and fight him again, he is no reason to.

Taylor: Right, well, and then also the articles we’re talking about how, you know, obviously they’re being put together by Valentina that has ties to the CIA. Like it goes bigger than just vigilantes in New York is kind of the premise. Plus you have characters who would be very unaligned with their evolution over multiple properties. But I did just want to put it out there because I think it’s interesting and it’s one other property that, though, is probably the least likely thread to tie in here, it does come into our nice little knot of Kingpin yarn.

Katie: I don’t know, I wouldn’t rule it out, but I would, I’d probably rule it out for a majority of our current roster of Thunderbolts. But I have said for quite a while I wouldn’t be against Marvel going, I don’t know, to the next few phases or whatever with the Thunderbolts as their primary Avengers rather than an Avengers team, shake it up a little bit. I’ve been saying that for a while, so if you kind of follow that, the Avengers team shifts. We add people all the time and if you’re going off the comics, we add and drop people all the time. So it’s always possible that the Thunderbolts can be shifting to a group that maybe goes a little bit more into the gray area than they already do, and doesn’t necessarily include people like Bucky and Yelena anymore but maybe US Agent stays on, maybe Taskmaster stays om and while they believe they might still be doing the right thing, maybe they’re not. 

Taylor: Well, because what I think is interesting about John too is he did what he did, he defiled the shield, and he got a whole lot of hate for it. And then he watched Sam step up and be the true embodiment of Captain America and I think he feels a lot of shame. I’m going to psychoanalyze the crap out of this guy right now. I think he feels a lot of shame, but I also think he feels a lot of anger. And I think that anger can be easily placed at the feet of vigilantes who think that they are doing the right thing outside the law because don’t forget, John is a veteran, so they are operating outside of the chain of command. When he did that, he did horrible things and horrible things happened to him and people really hate his guts. So I could see him being manipulated in that way to go against vigilantes, leading a team and thinking he’s doing the right thing because these people, are doing the wrong thing and they are not operating within the established chain of command, otherwise known as law enforcement.

Katie: Yeah, that’s exactly the point I was making so I wouldn’t necessarily throw that away. I don’t think it’s the current Thunderbolts’ full roster, but that isn’t to say that can’t go through some changes at the end of the day, and we could end up with either a completely different team or some of these current players still on it, and the storyline might just work out.

Taylor: Not to mention, with Thunderbolts coming out way before Spider-Man 4, you have plenty of time to make some adjustments. 

Katie: Exactly. 

Taylor: On that note, with all that meaty information, I think we’re going to call it the end of an episode. There’s a lot that’s coming to our street-level heroes in the form of Wilson Fisk, mayor of New York, and I’m really excited to see how it all plays out. If you want to stay with us while we cover this in the coming years as it goes across probably many properties and most New York-based heroes, make sure that you are following on your podcast platform of choice and also checking out our website, which is the central hub to all things Sisters Assembled.

Katie: Give us a follow on Twitter at SisAssemblePod, Instagram, and Threads at Sisters Assembled, and also subscribe to our YouTube at Sisters Assembled as well. You can keep up with all things about the show, our new episodes, and just things we’re doing all on those platforms so go ahead, and give us a follow on whichever ones you want or all of them. And next week, believe it or not, we are starting our predictions for Madame Web and you can have whatever feelings you need to have about that, just like I did, as I had to say it so get ready. We are hitting our first official movie. Obviously, not fully MCU, but it is Marvel-adjacent, so get prepared, and make sure you guys get your tickets. I think it’s coming out technically on Valentine’s Day, which was a choice, but either way, go see it. We’re going to be covering it so get ready. And as always, keep up with all things Marvel and keep up with us as well as Marvel just blew your mind so let’s talk about it.