Transcript

Taylor: Hello and welcome back to Sisters Assembled, where we are your home for all things MCU and MCU adjacent reactions, research, predictions, and discussions. Today we have a fun episode for you, we’re coming back to our Marvel Replay series, which we haven’t done in almost six months or close to six months. So it’s coming back to that, and this episode we’re going to be focusing on one that we accidentally skipped when we did it the last time because it wasn’t on Disney Plus, which is Spider-Man: Homecoming, one of my personal favorites. So without further ado, I’m going to let Katie kick us off for the episode.

Katie: You said personal favorites, and as soon as you said that, I was like, oh, I’m going to I’m going to make her feel sad for a second. But I have to have an overarching kind of statement when I say rewatching Homecoming, and maybe it’s just because I thought Far From Home and No Way Home at this point supersede it so much, I was actually bored rewatching Homecoming.

Taylor: I don’t disagree with that take it is a personal favorite of mine for nostalgic reasons, not necessarily because I think it’s the best movie. So a little bit of background, I was coming out of my freshman year of college when this film came out, and this was right after, as you all know, Civil War, Tom’s first big movie is Spider-Man, and I was deep in my Tom Holland fan girly phase and so it’s just like a really special time for me. I was very much into this whole thing. And so again, it’s like more of a nostalgic thing. I do think it’s a good movie still. I do think his other two are better, but for me it’s just like, it’s kind of like looking back at like The First Avenger, which is also one of my favorites for nostalgic reasons. It’s just that they have such a specific memory tied to them, or time period time tied to them that I’m like, oh, I love this movie for that reason, because it brings me back to that. Not necessarily because I’m like, oh, this is the best this character’s ever been, because I actually think we haven’t seen the best yet from Spider-Man. Knowing what we’re potentially going to get in Spider-Man 4, where the character is now in comparison to where he started in this film. I think the best is yet to come, but it does have it holds a special place in my heart, regardless of the amazing evolution of the character over the years.

Katie: That’s a totally fair point. I think just for me personally and I do love Tom Holland’s Spider-Man, do I think he’s my favorite? No. We all know that Andrew Garfield is still he has a place in my heart as Spider-Man forever. However, I say this in saying I honestly opened this movie, I couldn’t tell you last time I’ve seen Homecoming, I couldn’t tell you the last time I saw Homecoming. If I’m being completely honest, I didn’t rewatch it for Far From Home. I didn’t rewatch it for No Way Home.

Taylor: Yes, you did.

Katie: Did I? 

Taylor: You did watch it. We did our episode with Davis where we rewatched all of the Spider-Mans.

Katie: Oh my God, that’s how much I forgot it.

Taylor: Yeah, remember we like ranked everybody.

Katie: Well because I rewatched all of them.

Taylor: So that was 2021 early 2022.

Katie: Well okay so then there you go though that’s not recent by any means. That is if it’s prior to No Way Home, that’s a while ago. That is what over two years?

Taylor: Well I think we did it after but that’s still like.

Katie: Well I rewatched them before No Way Home.

Taylor: Oh yeah. I didn’t rewatch them until we did that episode.

Katie: No, my roommates and I all I have videos upon videos of us reacting to things from all of those movies. Yes. So yeah, I mean, that is over two years at least since I’ve seen this movie. I opened this movie on Disney Plus and I was like, wow, it’s two hours.

Taylor: I know I waited till the last minute to watch the movie so it was like the middle of my Sunday – we’re recording this on a Sunday – and it was the middle of my day and I was like, I need to go food shopping. I should go to the gym. This should only be a 90 minute movie and then I was like, it’s over two hours.

Katie: No, dude, I was the same way. I was like, okay, like, we need to run to Target today, we have Wegmans trip and then we have Home Depot. And I was like, that’s fine, we’ve got the time and then we’re really deep in a Minecraft world right now, I’m going to be completely transparent with everybody. And my boyfriend was like, can we play Minecraft? And I was like, well, I totally have to watch this movie but I was like, I guess if we don’t sleep through the night and you’re off mining and during the night time, I’ll watch the movie. So I’ve been watching it in like ten minute intervals all afternoon, but I was like, oh my God, this movie is so long. And I even said to him, and I think that’s where that boredom came in for me, because I was like, I thought, I’m an hour into this movie. We haven’t had the ship scene yet. We haven’t had the homecoming stuff. We haven’t had obviously the finale, like I’m thinking about all the things. Oh, the decathlon stuff in DC, that’s not until over an hour in. And I’m sitting here and I’m like, what the heck? Because I know this is all in here, but this movie just keeps going and going and going and I just, it was a long afternoon.

Taylor: Yeah. I’m not going to lie, I was doing other stuff during it because I was like, there’s literally too much. I procrastinated this morning. I have been into a certain thing, and someone gave me a recommendation that has taken all of my time for the last 24 hours. I told myself, I’m going to get up early, which I did. I got out of bed and then promptly went back to my phone because I am now addicted and wasted three hours and I was like, well, now I have to do stuff while watching this movie. Even then when I was doing other stuff, I was like, wow, there is just so much in this film and to your point, it’s like, oh, I forgot this scene happened. Oh wait, where’s Aaron Davis? We haven’t seen him yet. Like, oh man like this is a lot further into the movie than I thought. Yeah, there’s just a lot that happens and it’s all important. It all makes sense in the film and it doesn’t feel like he’s creating fluff but it’s just it’s it’s a very full film. And I think that’s something that I didn’t really think about when I was like watching it previously.

Katie: The story as a whole is told very well, but I do think and I actually was just working on the transcript for Marvels reactions and we make a point in saying about that movie how it didn’t feel like they made it too long. It felt like they just made what they wanted to make, and they were like, oh, it’s only an hour and a half, but that’s fine. It wasn’t as if they, and I’m not saying this happened with Spider-Man, but it wasn’t as if they were like, hey, we need a two hour and 15 minute film, let’s tell the story in that much, now we have to figure out how to fit it. I’m not saying that’s what happened by any means, but I will say I think a lot of the story works. I was shocked it was so long. I think you probably could cut a little bit of it and it would still be fine and I say all of this, because I’m glad that Marvel does seem to be moving away from some of this, because my day to day films of Spider-Man should not be over two hours. That’s just a statement that needs to be made. This isn’t any Infinity War type thing. This isn’t even a MoM or anything of that nature. My Andrew Garfield ones and my Tobey Maguire are right in that sweet spot of roughly 90 minutes, and I’ll take those personally.

Taylor: Yeah. I mean, honestly, I’m going to go even bolder and say that unless you’re in a major crossover film, no superhero movie needs to be more than two hours. It should be between 90 minutes and 2 hours is perfect. You can tell a completely self-contained or connected to other universe, whatever, dropping Easter eggs go ham. But a completely beginning to end full narrative story in 90 minutes to 2 hours. If you can’t do that, you need to revise your story, right? And I think that some of the criticism I think that’s Marvel’s gotten is like, you’re not even telling like great stories here and this I don’t think this film really falls to that. I do think it is a cohesive, smart, intelligent story that just happens to have, I think, maybe too much packed into it, like they’re trying to get so much development in for Spider-Man in this first film that they just put a little bit too much into it because it does kind of drag a little. It’s still very enjoyable, and it still all makes sense as one story instead of some of these other films that just go on and on and on and you’re like, all right, I’m feeling this now, this is a bit much.

Katie: Yeah, I agree, I totally am on the same page there, but let’s kind of crack this open a little bit more, go into some of the details of it because there’s actually one or maybe two, but definitely at least one thing that when I caught it and this is going to be embarrassing, I probably didn’t even catch it. Guys, this is probably a well-known piece of knowledge, and I’m about to be like, I was shocked, but the DODC has existed since 2012.

Taylor: Yeah, I remembered that they were in this because when we started talking about No Way Home, I think it came up that they had been in this film. And I remember when it opens, well, first of all, we have just have to address the absolute math gaffe that happens at the eight years later point. Ignore it. It’s supposed to be five if it’s taking place in 2017, which it does. So, you know, it’s actually clear in the film something says 2017. I’m like, well, then make that make sense, because we all know that The Avengers took place in 2012, so math.

Katie: Well, it’s also kind of hilarious because Peter actually does not exist eight years later. He does not exist on this planet or in the universe at that point. So, yeah, I mean, definitely a little bit of a math conundrum, if you ask me.

Taylor: I also okay, this is bad, but like, we’ve seen them make changes on stuff when it went to streaming. I get that this film came out two years technically because Disney Plus started in 2019, This film came out two years before they had the streaming platform. I get it, they were getting made fun of it for years, ever since it came out and everyone was like, wait a minute, the math isn’t mathing, but now you’re on streaming the file lives somewhere, fix it.

Katie: And you’re on Disney Plus, more importantly, because I also could understand the argument of them being not on Disney Plus if they had been elsewhere. You are now on Disney Plus. It is actually just a screen. It’s not even part of the movie. It is a pretty much what, like a power point screen at that point you could just put a new one in.

Taylor: Literally, it’s such I mean, I don’t have a ton of video editing experience, but the little bit that I do, I’m pretty sure that’s a five second edit, like just fix it. I just, I don’t want to derail us, but the fact that Marvel, which is up until probably this point known, other than a few major things that we probably have all pointed out over the years, but is pretty well known for being tight and buttoned up when it comes to stuff like this, they are usually very detail oriented. They’re very smart about their Easter eggs and things like this. So for them as a studio to just be like, yes, we’re just going to completely mess with this timeline, it just makes no sense to me that that even got greenlit in or in terms of it going out to market like that. But back to the DODC, when that happens, you know, you see the Toombs in Grand Central Station and then he’s talking to his crew, he’s talking about, oh, you can’t, you know, cut this with regular human stuff, you got to use the alien stuff on the alien stuff. And then I’m thinking to myself, oh my gosh, this is the DODC in this. Because again, the next time we see the DODC, actually, I don’t want to say that definitively, but the next time that I remember seeing the DODC and we’ll go back later, I’m sure as we go through the rest of the films is No Way Home. So Spider-Man brings them in, and then he’s also the one who really bumps it up.

Katie: I want to say that’s wrong, because we had TV shows that I’m pretty sure they were in.

Taylor: Miss Marvel was 2022.

Katie: No, before that, I want to say there was something else they were in prior to No Way Home, although I will also say my timeline of events is very screwy in general post the Covid and post the literal Blip in the MCU. I’m very confused on the timeline of events, but I do feel that we knew more about them before No Way Home.

Taylor: Well, the only projects that would have come out would be WandaVision, Falcon and the Winter Soldier, Loki, What If?, and part of Hawkeye in terms of shows 2021. Then it would have been Black Widow, Shang-Chi and the Eternals.

Katie: So I guess not. I feel like when we were talking about them with No Way Home, we were talking about seeing them again and I don’t think it was because we remembered them from this, because I did not remember them from this at all. I saw them and they said the Department of Damage Control. I actually didn’t even get it until they did the TV thing with Tony Stark next to it and I was like, wait a whole second here.

Taylor: It’s also so interesting to me that they’re now such a corrupt organization and it was started by Tony all those years ago, and I’m like, ooh, that legacy just keeps getting murkier.

Katie: Well, but to be fair, Tony’s not. Tony’s not here.

Taylor: Right, I just as a full team Cap girly.

Katie: I mean, look at how they treated Happy in No Way Home. Now that has a very different point of view for me because I didn’t remember any of this. So now realizing that this was started by Tony Stark, was a facility, pretty much everything put together was by Tony Stark. He probably handpicked some of those higher people for it, knowing him because he likes to make sure everything is how he wants it. I would have to think him being gone is definitely going to impact how it’s being organized. But yeah, I guess going back to that timeline of events, I guess you must be right there, that No Way Home is what brought them back in, but I really I’m all screwed up with that. I mean, we’ve seen them so much afterwards, I think that’s why I’m messed up but, yeah, I’m. I’m thrown off.

Taylor: Yeah. I think if I’m remembering correctly and it is murky for me too, but I think obviously we have that agent guy who interrogates May and Peter and Ned and maybe even MJ, but I don’t remember if she was interrogated or not off the top of my head.

Katie: The butthole.

Taylor: Yes, he’s such a turd and I remember him. Then I think we went into Ms. Marvel and it became very clear that they were part of Ms. Marvel, and he was in that and I think that’s why we started talking about them so much, because they were such a clear antagonist.

Katie: Well, because they were also in She-Hulk, weren’t they? I don’t know, they were in so much so quickly. But when were we talking about Cull Obsidian because that was dealing with them?

Taylor: Oh, Secret Invasion. 

Katie: But I feel like we talked- no, because the DODC is where the Abomination was being kept.

Taylor: You’re right, you’re right.

Katie: Yes. I was like, there was a reason here.

Taylor: Yeah, but that is all again after No Way Home. I think it’s really been like Spider-Man carrying the torch.

Katie: Right, right but they just really ramped up after is what I was kind of trying to say is like, I think because they were ramping up so much afterwards, it made it very hard for me to realize that it was No Way Home that brought them back into the picture.

Taylor: Yeah, because I don’t think they were in Falcon and the Winter Soldier, right? I think that was a completely different government organization, wasn’t it? 

Katie: Well, because that was global. That ended up being global because of the and actually I’m pretty sure they’re like the global something and there’s a whole name for them.

Taylor: Yeah. It’s kind of like a sort of quasi version of the UN, is kind of my, if I’m remembering that correctly.

Katie: Yeah.

Taylor: Okay, so anyway, back to the DODC. This is our first introduction, I believe, to the DODC because it’s a direct reaction basically to the events of The Avengers. And so we see that Tony created them and now we know kind of where they’ve gone on to devolve and become major antagonists for certain heroes within the MCU. So that’s a huge one. That’s a huge Easter egg and it comes right on the heels of that really, really big gaffe when it comes to years. So it’s a really interesting and important kind of ten minute clip there of them in Grand Central. It also completely sets up Toomes’ entire character, in terms of how he becomes a villain, going from a regular working man to a total super villain. I have to say, though, you know, watching this back, I will say Toomes is a great villain in terms of how he’s written.

Katie: Oh, I can agree with that.

Taylor: Yeah. I mean, we talk all the time about the difference between a good and a bad villain. Obviously the Killmongers of the world. Do I think he’s a Killmonger? No, but I think he leans a lot closer to a Killmonger than he does an Ezekiel Sims. He has actual motivations, you understand he wants to just provide for his family. You see, very quickly but also, I think very effectively kind of his fall from grace or fall from kind of the right side of the law, how slippery that slope was for him to go from, oh, we’ll just take this one truckload to I’m using quotes here, but eight years later, going and having an entire criminal organization that’s made him a ton of money that house is gorgeous, like they are doing exceptionally well. So I thought that was something that really stuck out to me in this rewatch, was like looking at him more analytically and saying, oh, wow, this is actually a really exceptionally well-written character. Then on top of it, you have Michael Keaton playing the character so you’re like, oh, wow, this is a great villain. Period. The end.

Katie: Well, and I think to putting him parallel or perpendicular, however you want to look at it, but I’m going to say parallel to this young kid, I think giving that extra connection because he ends up being this kid’s crushh’s dad. That’s just that extra level of, oh crap, every time you watch the movie, you’re like, oh, of course, out of everybody. But it’s not one of those moments where it’s like, oh, of course we saw that coming kind of thing. It really is something that you don’t see, you don’t see and he keeps saying his family, but why would we be thinking they’re connected when, you know, Peter’s out here, crushing on a completely different girl. Why would we think that has any relation? At the end of the day, he is a really great villain. He’s a really great villain for a fetus Peter Parker, if I’m being completely honest. I think it’s a really good way to bring him into more of this crime scene but on top of that, it’s interesting because it does start so small. If you think about how he gets involved and gets on the Vulture’s trail, it’s all because of this one little misfire of a weapon when he happens to be on the roof of a house, which ironically, is Toomes’ house and that just is kind of what- I mean he does have the whole thing at the ATM, and that’s kind of helps him put piece and piece together. But at the end of the day, that was not he wasn’t going to be hunting down those weapons by any means. What put it back on his radar was that explosion. I think it’s done very well and I think the Vulture as a whole is also done very well, his story. And you said about how he devolves, I think he also devolves in the movie itself. You see him very confident in everything he’s been doing, because he’s been getting away with it for eight years and to be fair, I get his thought process because to him, no harm, no foul. They make the weapons, they’re gone, they get the money from them. Whatever happens to these weapons or however they’re used, it’s not his problem. He’s able to compartmentalize that type of information and just say, okay, whatever. But you see how quickly the threat to his business and his livelihood creates this strange type of monster in him, even him threatening Peter in the car at homecoming, sitting there with a gun to him and obviously he’s never going to shoot him. That’s never going to happen. Not even just because of the type of movie, but because that’s not the purpose of it, he wanted to freak him out. That’s a 15 year old kid sitting there, regardless of whether he’s Spider-Man or not. I just think it’s so interesting to see him from the start of this movie, the confidence he has in everything he’s doing and how quickly he devolves. But then he comes back at the end, he kind of bounces back.

Taylor: Yeah, it is really interesting to watch him completely unravel and take bigger and bigger risks. The whole thing is do you want to go for the big one? Do you want to go for the big one? He’s like, no, no, no, no, no and Peter and his insistence on doing the right thing and not letting the trail go cold really puts Toomes in a corner to the point where he’s like, I have to just go for this, like it’s go big or go home, or I’m sunk, basically. And to your point, you know, your last point when you were saying and then he kind of comes back around. I think that’s what makes him an even more interesting character, but then also speaks to Peter’s character and what a good, genuinely good person he is, right? He saves the Vulture when he doesn’t have to. He could let him blow up, but he’s thinking about the guy, he’s thinking about Liz and what that would do to her to have her father die like that. And he has so much empathy and he just wants to do the right thing that he saves Toomes and in doing so, he doesn’t just seems Toomes physically, but then also kind of makes him realize, like, I’ve come so far, I almost just killed this 15 year old kid who then, even though I beat him senseless, still pulled me out of the fire and then returns the favor by not revealing Peter’s identity. So I think it’s such an interesting dichotomy between the two as they go back and forth, and I love that. It wasn’t something that I really looked at deeply in some of my other viewings, that kind of evolution together of protagonist and antagonist but I think that’s played off really, really well.

Katie: I agree, I really like their relationship throughout the entire movie. It’s a very interesting character study for both of them and who they become because of each other, and I think that’s how you do it very well, especially in a superhero movie. I know we talk about Killmonger all the time, but that also is why Killmonger is such a great villain, because of who he makes T’Challa throughout the movie as well. That’s the point. They’re supposed to grow in different ways, and sometimes growing is not great. Sometimes the growth is in the wrong direction, but that’s the point. That’s what’s supposed to happen throughout the movie. I really, really do enjoy these two. I don’t remember enjoying watching them like this, to your point as well. I don’t really recall ever having this much of a good feeling about this was great storytelling between the villain and hero, but I’m glad I had the chance to go back and watch this because it really was. It was great storytelling.

Taylor: Yeah, it definitely, definitely was. I think one of the other things that excited me to rewatch this film is now that it’s been out for, oh my gosh, almost seven years, which makes me really, really sad. But because it’s been out this long, you know, so many people have pointed out it-.

Katie: Wait, wasn’t it 2016?

Taylor: No, it was 2017.

Katie: Okay. Gotcha. I’m thinking because we switched this and Black Panther so I am thrown off.

Taylor: Yeah and Doctor Strange.

Katie: Yeah. Oh that’s the other one because, yes, yes, yes, yes.

Taylor: Because technically you can do this one or Black Panther in either order because they both come right off of Civil War but we should not have gone to Doctor Strange. That’s on us, sorry and also all of the changing rights on streaming, they’re hard to keep up with. But anyway, this was a 2017 film so seven years ago so now it’s been pretty well documented all of the different Easter eggs and things that come out of it. I think one of the fun things, especially for the older films to go back and see, is just what Easter eggs are there and then now as we have more and more things coming out on top of them, how are they starting to play off or pay off I should say in a way that they had it maybe two years ago or three years ago and how are we seeing the threads start to pick back up? We’ve talked about this a lot, how Marvel sometimes lets go of things for like a really, really long time and then you almost forget about them but I think that’s one of the my favorite parts, at least about doing the replays is like this movie came out seven years ago. I haven’t watched it at least two, and now I’m getting to see, oh hey, I forgot that happen. Or oh hey, now I’m reading that a completely different way because this character has gone in a completely different direction since we last saw this film. 

Katie: That’s the caveat I wanted to say to kind of what you were just saying. What’s interesting is there are things that weren’t necessarily Easter eggs either in 2017 that now we sit here and I even have in my little notes, as I was taking in my ten minute intervals of the movie and I have written that there’s a lot of things that foreshadow stuff for Peter, stuff for just Infinity War in general that you would never have thought of. I never would have sat there and said, that’s definitely going to talk about his character in three movies, or that’s going to talk about Endgame. We didn’t even know Endgame was Endgame at the time. So I think it’s so interesting because this character, more than many of the others, I think especially because of Tony being in it definitely has a lot of moments that I think played out, unfortunately or fortunately. However you want to look at that, but they’ve definitely played out on the big screen.

Taylor: Oh, totally. I want to talk about my favorite Easter egg in this film, which is one that has not paid off yet, but it’s going to. It’s confirmed, it’s going to it’s just a matter of when and exactly how they do it, which is Aaron Davis being in the film, played by Donald Glover, aka Childish Gambino, aka that guy from Community, because I’ve never seen Community.

Katie: Did you just say that guy from Community? It is Troy and put some respect on his name. Thank you.

Taylor: I love Donald Glover and I also like his music. I have no disrespect for the guy. I’ve just never seen Community. It’s like one of the few sitcoms I’ve never seen.

Katie: No, you must, but I will say, as soon as he leaves the show, it goes downhill. But you must watch it. Him and Abed, those are my favorite two, they’re my favorite duo. 

Taylor: Anyway.

Katie: Sorry, I just have to, I just have to talk about my love for that show.

Taylor: In this film, he is playing Aaron Davis, who if you guys have seen any of the Spider-Verse films or to differentiate the Miles Morales Spider-Verse films, because technically there’s the Sony Spider-Man universe and then there’s the Spider-Verse films, and they may or may not be related.

Katie: I just call Sony’s whole thing Sonyverse, and then I call the Spider-Verse movies the Spider-Verse stuff.

Taylor: Yeah, that’s one way to do it. Technically, I think the official name is Sony Spider-Man universe the SSU. That’s what I keep seeing in articles and I’m like, that’s literally so gross but whatever.

Katie: It’s so embarrassing but go off.

Taylor: Moving on because otherwise I’m going to say rude things. Anyway, so in the Spider-Verse films with Miles Morales, you all know Aaron Davis is his uncle, who also plays the Prowler. So a couple of things in the two appearances that Aaron Davis has in this film, the first appearance where they to your point earlier where he sees the the blast go off when he’s on Toomes’ house, that’s Aaron Davis and they talk about, I think anti-gravity climbers or something, which if any of you know from those films, he plays the Prowler and that is kind of his M.O..

Katie: I’m really glad you brought this up, because I also had this in my notes. I considered this a what if situation because I think if Peter had not intervened, I truly do believe that he would have become the Prowler. In this universe, I think it could have happened. He was clearly on that path already and I think with Peter intervening not only at the bridge, but then going to him to figure out when they’re you know, who he’s getting all these weapons for or who else was there at the bridge, I think it totally switches the perspective for Aaron on whatever he was planning to do, because that is when he mentions his nephew and everything else. I actually truly think in that moment that was Peter taking him off of that life trajectory and in a completely other universe, if that never happened, he would be the Prowler and I wonder if it’s the one we see in the Spider-Verse movie who’s captured.

Taylor: Interesting. I like that theory. I do, I do, I think it has a lot of merit and I don’t, it’s been a minute since I’ve seen Into the Spider-Verse, but Miles becoming Spider-Man has nothing to do with Aaron being the Prowler, right? Like those two things aren’t related.

Katie: I don’t believe so.

Taylor: Basically what I’m just trying to get at is the Miles that we’re going to get in live action, Amy Pascal has has confirmed it. She said the next thing we’re doing, if I’m remembering the order correctly, the next thing they’re doing is Spider-Man 4 and then or sorry, they’re doing the Spider-Verse film, then they’re doing Spider-Man 4 and then I think she said, it’s Miles Morales, you know, excluding the ones that we know are on the slate for this year in terms of the Sony Spider-Man universe, I’m pretty sure that is kind of the order that she gave. Either way, regardless of the actual layout and rollout of these films, we’re getting a live action Miles Morales. It’s coming. I for one am ecstatic. If you’ve listened to any of the episodes in the last year or so, you know how much I’m looking forward to this but I think one of my questions when it comes to that is, is it going to be this Miles that this Aaron Davis was hinting at when he said, I have a nephew who lives here, or is it going to be a Secret Wars type situation where we bring in Miles from another universe, in which case we could have an Aaron Davis be the Prowler and to your point, this could be that what if moment that takes this Aaron Davis off that path, and maybe this Miles Morales in this universe, this nephew we know exists never becomes Spider-Man. There’s not necessarily like a total causality there between Aaron becoming the Prowler and Miles becoming Spider-Man. But, you know, things have unintended consequences so I wouldn’t be surprised if that’s maybe another one.

Katie: So I think we talked about this before, and I think it was in conversation to Into the Spider-Verse, because that would be the most natural fit to this conversation. I do think if they’re going to be bringing in Miles Morales, the best thing they could do is bring in the version we’ve just watched by then, three movies about. And I know for the time being, it’s been animation and it has been amazing animation but I do think it would be pretty cool to do a Secret Wars type of thing and the universe or one of the universes that we’re clashing with is actually the Miles from Into the Spider-Verse or from the Spider-Verse movies in general and that is how we get the live action is he gets brought into live action in that way. I think with the way they’re slating these movies, it also seems like that could be the direction we’re going. They clearly want Into the Spider-Verse to happen before a Miles Morales movie happens. They want a Spider-Man 4 to happen before Miles Morales happens. And so I think that really leads up into I mean, they want Spider-Man 4 before Secret Wars too, which is important to keep note of. So I think both of those needing to happen in the order that they, both Sony and Marvel, is trying to make them happen in their own way on their own films, I think it makes the most sense for it to be that Miles and so the one that’s in Tom’s universe is just going to live as Miles because, remember, Miles is never supposed to be Spider-Man. Is that not what Into the Spider-Verse is all about?

Taylor: Across the Spider-Verse? But yes.

Katie: I’ve been saying into the Spider-Verse, but we all know what I’m talking about. 

Taylor: The second one.

Katie: You know what? You do it to all of Toms and I’ll do it to all of Miles’ because I’m sitting here and I’m confused.

Taylor: What is it with Spider-Man films and all of them being like the same naming convention but a few words changed because, like, it’s too much.

Katie: I’m confused constantly. But to all of that, I do think that’s the most logical way of letting it happen versus especially if they were to try to bring it in as he is in Tom’s Peter’s universe. I think that’s confusing too, because Tom’s Peter in the movie makes it very clear that his spider is dead, the one that bit him. Which means there would have to be another radioactive spider at some point to make another Spider-Man.

Taylor: Yeah, you’re right.

Katie: Which isn’t impossible. I just don’t think that makes sense. 

Taylor: It would be a bigger stretch than it would be to bring in Miles from another universe. I do agree, I think it makes most sense for him to be another universe’s Miles. I don’t know that I can get on board with it being, as much as I want it to be, the Miles from the Spider-Verse films, only because the plot that has happened in that, or the universe that he comes from, it just seems so far removed. If I’m remembering Secret Wars correctly in the comics when we get to the final two universes, which in that case is 616, and whatever Miles’ universes, those are the final two that come together. And so that basically means that the other characters that come in from that universe would have to be in existence in Miles’ universe. So because we haven’t seen any of that in the Spider-Verse films, it’s a little harder for me to wrap my head around that being the second major universe when it comes to Secret Wars. Especially when in live action, now we have a whole nother universe out there that is a fully formed X-Men team that we saw at the end of The Marvels. So you kind of have to like, yes, there are so many different universes that come in to Secret Wars, but for it to be that main antagonistic universe against 616, like Marvel has to think really, really deeply and intentionally about exactly what universe they want to elevate to be, rivals is the wrong word, but the rival of 616 in that way.

Katie: I hear you, but there are people paid to do that so I do think there is a high probability. I think it makes the most sense, because otherwise, in the nicest of ways, why make any of the Spider-Verse movies? And listen, they are great movies and I agree, I mean, I walked out of Across the Spider-Verse grinning, laughing like having the time of my life, but also ready to have a mental breakdown because of the ending. I get it, they’re great movies, but I sit there and I’m like, if you’re not ever going to translate that and let that Miles, who we’ve fallen in love with be the Miles that becomes our live action, now I have to relearn to love this character. Everything I knew about him, I have to technically forget it’s not the same character, and now I have to relearn an origin. I have to relearn his story. I just think that doesn’t make logical sense as far as what an audience needs to be doing to love a character again, I think that’s a far step.

Taylor: Yeah, well, and not to mention, how cool would it be at the end of Beyond the Spider-Verse for that last shot to be him going from animation to live action, in which case I will lose my absolute noggin in the theater. So I’m not saying I don’t want it to be that way. I’m not saying I don’t think it’s going to be that way, but I do want to point out a little bit of a devil’s advocate angle, that there are a few other considerations we have to keep in mind when it comes to Secret Wars, and exactly how Miles is going to play a role, because I do agree Miles has to be in there. It’s a very important comic to bring him in. It makes the most sense in terms of bringing him into the MCU proper. You can bring him into live action. Cool. In fact, in my head, the perfect sequence of events is that we get Beyond the Spider-Verse. We see him live action first time. We get to find out who’s playing him in real life. Then we go into Secret Wars. He’s fully integrated with our Peter into the MCU, and then he gets his own solo film, boom boom boom. Exactly, narratively, how I want it and I think that makes the most sense.

Katie: I definitely agree, even with your first statement. I think we said it when we watched
Across the Spider-Verse, that would be the ideal way to do all of this, and I think they should. I want to now cover my hanging thread from this movie, and it hangs from this movie and then it got picked up from a different movie, but now it’s still hanging and so that is actually the end credit for me, which is Toomes in jail with the Scorpion, who we never see come to fruition at any point. And this is the moment we kind of talked about it earlier, when he could have given away Peter’s identity, he chooses not to. That in itself is kind of a hanging thread, because that had a lot of people already saying, could we be getting the Sinister Six? Is this what they’re leading up to? Are they kind of just giving us some hints, with both of them being in the same room? 

Taylor: Well, especially when he says, I have friends on the outside and you’re like, well, yeah, I wonder what kind of friends you’ve got, sir.

Katie: Exactly. However, and the reason I say this thread gets semi picked up is because we cannot forget that after this movie, the Vulture magically ends up in Morbius’ universe and with Morbius. And as much as I don’t want to talk about Morbius, it’s important to me because that also reignited the discussion for people of, well, could this be number three? Is Morbius the third one now already in this group of possibly making a Sinister Six? Granted, a lot of people were also like, this already sucks if this is your Sinister Six. However, again, another caveat here is No Way Home had most of the big names in Sinister Six. That almost was your Sinister Six, if you really think about it. And so if they wanted to do that with this Spider-Man, it wouldn’t be your Doc Octs, your Sandmans, your Electros. You wouldn’t have them in there because we saw it already from other universes, but we saw it already. So that’s my hanging thread that frustrates me still, because they’re saying we’re going to ground level, or I should say Marvel is saying we’re going ground level with Tom’s next trilogy, Sony is off trying to like, pray that they can go Multiversal for unknown reasons, because again, Sony, how’s Madame Web doing? That’s all I have to ask there.

Taylor: I’m so glad we’re doing this replay right now, in this moment in time. 

Katie: I mean, my question could just morph into how did Madame Web do? That’s all that needs to be asked.

Taylor: Is it Morbin time? Is it Morbin?

Katie: Oh my god, no but that’s why I didn’t even want to bring Morbius up. Another, again Sony, how did Morbius do? You know, I could do this all day. Literally. I could Cap this out right now and I could do this all day.

Taylor: This isn’t one of our video episodes, so y’all can’t see my eyes roll basically to the back of my head, I think I just saw my brain like, I can’t even. I have so many issues with the Morbius end credits scene, not just from a Multiversal standpoint, Vulture should never have been there. It’s been clearly defined as a very separate universe from the MCU. He shouldn’t have been there. There’s no reason, there’s no logic, and there’s no logistics.

Katie: There isn’t. However, the only thing is that’s the same thing that faces Venom. They argue that the whole symbiote thing and I’m like, but at the end of the day, it didn’t make sense for him to jump back and then jump over to his again. That didn’t make sense. So there were random little guys jumping around universes at some random point. Regardless of all of that, regardless of the Multiversal implications and whatever, I am so curious because again, you’re not going to have a Sinister Six with some big swingers anymore. Also, if you’re doing ground level, this could be a great time to do it, but Vulture arguably doesn’t make sense anymore. His ending doesn’t make it make sense because he defended Peter for the most part. I mean, he didn’t, but he did well.

Taylor: And that’s that was going to be my next point is it not only like from a Multiversal standpoint, doesn’t make sense, his attitude does not make sense because it seemed like he had very much kind of come to terms with Peter, respected him as someone who saved his life, as someone who’s a genuinely good person and kind of seemed to realize, like, actually, I was in the wrong here, and you were kind of right then you saved my life so I’m going to do you a solid. It didn’t make sense then for him to be like, hey, I got a guy that I would like to take out with you. Where did that come from? Hello 360 to a character like that doesn’t make sense either. And then to what you were saying with the Sinister Six and going back all the way to the reason we were talking about this was, which is Scorpion, I don’t think we need to do a Sinister Six right now. We have just set up Kingpin, Kingpin to be the antagonist for Spider-Man 4. And look, maybe that’s going to pivot hard to the left when we see Born Again I think next year. And considering they haven’t even really started production on Spider-Man 4 yet, like we have time for things to change. But it seems and if you haven’t listened to our Mayor Kingpin episode, definitely make sure you do that because we dive deep into how this has all sorts of Spider-Man implications. But it definitely seems like that is the direction that we’re heading for Tom’s next movie and so maybe we get a Sinister Six for Spider-Man 5, but in the meantime, you can be actually building in some of these other characters or seeding them. So if you have Scorpion kind of on the wings, let’s phase out Vulture, he got his own film, ignore the heck out of Morbius, because that’s just stupid. And then maybe we have a hint at a Rhino. Maybe we bring in a Shocker because he’s in jail but we didn’t really get to feature him in any real way.

Katie: Kraven’s around the corner. I just want Aaron Taylor-Johnson, but, like, yeah, Kraven’s around the corner.

Taylor: I know you do. I know you do. I was like, there’s a serious arterial motive to bringing that particular character in, but there’s just so many other options. And I know, like what you were saying, like obviously the heavy hitters we’ve seen before and Marvel has been really adamant other than in No Way Home, when it made sense to stay away from some of these characters because, let’s be honest, are you going to get a better Doc Ock than Molina? You’re not. You just don’t need to touch greatness, just let it be, let it rest and honestly, he went out on top. Like, could it have been any better than in No Way Home? I don’t think so. So we don’t need to see these characters again. Let’s let some of his other, I would call them upper mid tier character shine. There are plenty of others, I mean Lizard we could bring back. He you know was okay in the Andrew version. I’d like to see what the MCU does with him, could be in a Sinister Six. I don’t know whether or not he’s in a Sinister Six in the comics, the roster changes so much I can’t keep track.

Katie: Yeah, I don’t remember if he is. I know I can always picture Electro and Doc Ock. Those are two that I am always, those are at top of my brain.

Taylor: Right and the good thing about something like this, it’s basically like an evil Avengers, right? It’s always rotating. You could always bring in other characters to fill that, characters that we haven’t seen yet. And so if we’re going to do a Sinister Six, I think it’s got to be at least Spider-Man 5 or 6. I think you need to start putting connections with these characters. You did something with Scorpion. I want it to pay off. I think it would be stupid to let another end credits scene dangle like we did with our universe’s Mordo, which going on eight years and still no resolution there, but I digress. So I just don’t want another one to go by like that when we have so many other characters we can toy around with and mix and match to make a roster, I don’t think it’s going to be 4 for the reasons we just said, but I do think that there’s an opportunity to do it down the road. We just need to start putting the pieces into place now.

Katie: I couldn’t agree more. I think you’ve said everything that is on the top of my brain regarding that, because I definitely I don’t want to see especially, I mean, guys, I also just rolled my eyes so hard when Taylor brought up Mordo, because we know how I feel about that one, especially because now the Doctor Strange stuff connects so heavily to Wanda that I’m just annoyed constantly with that one. He could have been really cool and we may or may not ever get him and that’s very frustrating. I think, ironically, Spider-Man once again though, Tom’s specifically falls a little bit into he gets sucked into the other movies in between this and No Way or Far From Home and then No Way Home, because those two obviously kind of butt right up against each other versus he is literally snapped for five years, comes back in Endgame, and then we go right into Far From Home. So it definitely is a little hard with his character, the same way it is with Doctor Strange, I think, with some of these end credits, especially these last few threads that may or may not ever get to be cleaned up. I will say as far as some other weird random little callback things or things, just to keep an eye on from this movie that haven’t yet come to fruition. One I just want to say a horrible callback or a horrible, I guess foreshadowing that makes me sad on the inside is when Tony is saying, and if you die, it’s on me. And then we sit there and we see him in Endgame, being torn in half and knowing that Peter is the only reason, truly the only reason that Tony solves time travel and actually allows the green light to go on these missions to save everybody is so heartbreaking to me as I sit there. When he said that, I was like, oh okay.

Taylor: Well and then when you hear that, I don’t know if you think about this, but I just think of I don’t want to go, I don’t want to go. And the look of tortured pain on Tony’s face like that was one of the moments they got me watching Infinity War the first time. I think I’d been in shock up until that point and that was the moment I was like, nothing’s ever going to be okay again. The world is a bleak, dark place.

Katie: No, I agree, I was I was so in shock. I mean, because I’ve said this so many times, I’m sure on this podcast watching Bucky go, really, I wanted to show what was happening so I was just like, oh, Bucky just turned into paper, like, what is going on? And then for a split second, my brain was actively trying to figure out how the metal turned into paper but beyond that, then, like, people started dying and Wanda went and I was like, oh, wait, wait, wait, where? And then I was thinking, maybe these people are going off to a mystical, great land somewhere and then as soon as Peter went, yeah, I was like, who knows? You know, all my faves are going, Loki already died earlier in that movie, I was, you know, having a great time already. And as soon as Peter went, though, that’s when it started feeling so much more real and you’re like, this is clearly not a good thing happening. I don’t, not that I was like, let’s celebrate but I my brain was full on trying to fill in the blanks and just was like, it’s fine. Everything’s fine right now. I was the meme of the dog sitting in all the fire just going, it’s fine. That was me and then Peter broke my heart. so hearing that in this movie was hard. I know there’s a part where Ned’s talking about going public and letting everybody know who he is, and he’s like, no, and it’s actually multiple times, all I think about is Mysterio and how quickly his life changed because of that. I thought that was so interesting because that is such a huge part of well, clearly it’s like the crux of No Way Home, but it ends up being a big part of Far From Home. That was a huge one that definitely hurt me a little bit, I will say.

Taylor: Yeah, I think the other one that I thought – I didn’t think about when I was watching the movie, but as I was kind of ruminating this afternoon – I thought about his relationship with May and how he has to keep it on so many levels. There’s how he’s keeping it a secret from her in this version. I couldn’t help but think, and this is a side and then I’ll get to the actual, like meaty, like emotional part of it but I couldn’t help but wonder, like, if we saw this Peter Parker, we saw being born in Madame Web. Like, that means that when he references everything that happened with Aunt May, he’s talking about the guy from Parks and Rec as his uncle. So I just like, had that in the back of my mind because we just saw Madame Web a couple weeks ago. But then, of course I think about how she then goes on to support him, right? We see him kind of unmask himself to her at the end of the film, but then she’s so supportive in Far From Home, She has got his back. She’s basically his talent agent and not in a cruel, businessy sort of way, but in a way she’s like, this is my nephew, and I’m so proud of him, and he’s awesome and he’s Spider-Man, like, he’s awesome. And then, of course, everything that happens in No Way Home and you’re just like, oh my God, like, I can’t you like, think about how this evolves, it just takes such a left turn.

Katie: I couldn’t stop this whole movie. I really sat here and every time he even spoke because Tom was so much younger, obviously, that’s how time works, everybody grows up, I understand that, but just knowing how much younger he was compared to now, and also just the character, the innocence, the just he’s out here getting a churro because he helped some lady. Like that was how this all started and the next thing you know, I mean, my brain kept going with the what if situation of what if he would have taken Tony’s offer? What if he would have become an Avenger? How would things have turned out differently here? That is so on the top of my brain. I want to see a scenario there because it’s important to me. Maybe May never dies because No Way Home doesn’t happen because Far From Home doesn’t happen.

Taylor: Yeah, I never really thought about it that deeply before when he refuses him, I was like, oh, that makes sense, friendly neighborhood Spider-Man. Also, he doesn’t need to be an Avenger. I mean, he ends up being one anyway in Infinity War he gets officially, unofficially knighted by Tony on the ship but like, I couldn’t help but think the same thing. How would this have all played out differently if he had said, yup, I’m ready to go. I’m going to go live in my bunk next to Vision and like, do all of these things and like, as much as I complain and I know Katie complains about him being a little too involved with other characters in this iteration, in this first trilogy, there is a part of me that’s like, I would have loved to see those stories be told. Is there a world in which we get alternate universe What If? like Tom Spider-Man movie where he does become an Avenger and we get to go see him live his life out as a full on Avenger? How does that change Infinity War? How does that change all of it?

Katie: I’m about to say something that’s not fully related, but wasn’t Wanda’s bunk next to Vision’s? Is that why it’s open?

Taylor: You’re darn right it was. I mean, but technically but technically, if Vision’s in the middle, there would have been two rooms next to him. But yes, Wanda was next to Vision.

Katie: I didn’t think about that until this moment and I was like, a rooms open next to Vision. Then I was thinking, this is post-Civil War and then I’m like, oh my God, this is post-Civil War. She’s already broken out, which means Vision has to be following her soon because.

Taylor: I also, you know what else I couldn’t help but think about when they showed that shot of the campus was, this is where it all happened. This is where Tony dies, this is where Thanos from 2014 comes and just obliterates everything. I just couldn’t help but think about that. But then on the lighter side, I thought about how Scott just thought it was a storage unit and then rolled on up to the Avengers facility in Ant-Man, so I was like, you know, good and bad.

Katie: No. Yeah, I know that this is a hard movie. It’s really hard. I will just say I have, I think, two more quick things that are things that we might not have seen come to fruition. One is one I’m not sure will ever get but is mentioned and I’m curious, everybody always focuses on when Happy’s talking about what he’s loaded up, everybody’s like Cap’s new shield, Cap’s new shield. What about Thor’s belt?

Taylor: I know, I know.

Katie: I’m very curious about the thing he could not pronounce. I want to see Thor’s belt. 

Taylor: I mean, I feel like he could use a belt when he’s going up against Hercules. Like, that’s a really big opponent, maybe he could use a little bit of a leg up. 

Katie: Well, why is it there? That’s a good question I have. Two, is it still there? Because to your point, in Endgame, the whole facility gets blown up.

Taylor: Well and not to mention we know that people raided the rubble because that’s how the Ronin uniform went up for auction in Hawkeye. So we know that people stole artifacts from the rubble of the base.

Katie: Right, so there’s that aspect too. And then my third point just being is, did Thor take it some time between these two moments in time that we’re discussing? And now he has this magical belt somewhere. I’m very curious about said belt, I would like to understand more. My last thing is not that we need to go into detail about this, we’ve said enough, but Avengers Tower. We still don’t have an answer on who bought this and this is the movie where we find out it’s been bought.

Taylor: That means, due to the math that we’ve done at the beginning or throughout this episode, to somewhat more success than Marvel is able to do math. It’s been seven, this summer, it’ll be seven years since we found out that the tower was stolen and we still, to Katie’s point, don’t have an answer. We do now have a Fantastic 4 cast, and since that is our preferred theory we’re going to go with, we’re going to find that next year when they show us a nice aerial shot of New York and it’s the Baxter Building, but we do not have confirmation one way or the other who bought the thing.

Katie: Well, and it’s been seven years here, but in universe it’s been what, at least ten, right? No wait.

Taylor: No, because we’re sort of caught up.

Katie: I don’t know how to math. Hold on, hold on. What year was this movie? 2017.

Taylor: 2017.

Katie: So it’s 8 or 9 though, right?

Taylor: I mean, because they don’t put a line in the sand.

Katie: What is the latest? What is the most recent?

Taylor: They haven’t said. Everything that they’ve done has been present day. They have not told us years. Like the only thing that we knew was that I think someone said Ms. Marvel was 2024 or 2025 because of a food license certificate like they are not telling us anything.

Katie: So I’m just going to say, though, it’s probably considering, let’s just say when we came out of the Blip or came from the Blip, it was 2024 already.

Taylor: 2023, it was five years from 2018.

Katie: I’m so thrown off because I’m thinking of Endgame came out. That’s why I’m doing five plus 2019 but okay, 2023. But it was 2021 when everything started popping back up for us. We were two years behind. Theoretically saying, let’s just say that everything has remained two years ahead of us. We are technically, any new content could be 2026 at the furthest.

Taylor: And in knowing that Fantastic Four comes out next year, which will be 2025, that would be 2027, ten years later in universe.

Katie: That’s what I mean. Okay, so that’s where my ten years came from, was I was thinking – all this math happened in my head silently guys. It clearly was not conveyed in my words. But yes, that’s where I got ten from was thinking that way was if we’re still ahead because we haven’t gotten confirmation we’ve technically caught up, I’m just assuming or making a possible assumption.

Taylor: Yeah. I mean, honestly, Marvel has been very coy when it comes to actually naming specific years in any of the shows or movies. I know that was something that someone pointed out with Secret Invasion, that they have been doing it a lot, and I never really thought about it. I was like, oh, we’re just blah blah blah blah blah, like you’re kind of guessing based on how long it looks like it’s been after the Blip. But then someone on Twitter in June of last year when we were watching Secret Invasion was like, oh yeah, they have just been doing present day for everything, like they’re not telling us years on anything unless it’s like in the past, it’s a flashback and they’re letting you know that. I’m like, you’re so right. They have refused to even give us any semblance of where we actually are present day on a calendar other than telling us its present day, which is about as helpful as, like, I don’t know, a grain of sand being in a sugar packet. Like, why is that there and why are you not giving me the real answer?

Katie: Listen, they messed up their math once and gave us eight years and ever since they’re scared to put a date on anything because at least now they can say any number of years later and it doesn’t matter. There’s no proof that they’re wrong.

Taylor: That is cowardly. Cowards! Just do the math. If we can do the math live here on this show, you can do the math before you put it into a major theatrical release. Hello.

Katie: I’m just saying, man, I don’t know. I do agree that it’s frustrating, but that’s why I said ten years, though. We could be theoretically 9 to 10 years out from Homecoming.

Taylor: I’m done, I refuse, I can’t.

Katie: That’s okay. I have no more topics.

Taylor: Good, because that that was enough to make me just like, check out I can’t. The fact that we’re talking about ten years out from Homecoming and that’s like not even far in like our lives either, is just nauseating and I’m over it. 

Katie: Yeah, I mean, I’m trying to think in No Way Home, is he a senior in college or a senior in high school? Yes, right?

Taylor: No, he’s a junior or maybe senior fall.

Katie: But we don’t know when No Way Home happens anyway.

Taylor: Because he, that’s right after, okay. So maybe he is a senior because in Far From Home because he didn’t age for five years, he was a junior I think. So then I think you’re right in No Way Home – and that summer – he would have been going into his senior year.

Katie: Because of college, their applications.

Taylor: Yeah. So I think it’s senior fall okay.

Katie: Okay, well I was trying to figure that out because he was a sophomore in this movie but that doesn’t help me. So, it’s fine. I’m not going to solve the Marvel Universe timeline here live on the podcast by any means. I’ll just sound like an idiot during most of it, so I’m just going to leave it where it’s at.

Taylor: I think that’s probably a wise choice, my friend.

Katie: I know, I know, I know when to call it quits. Let’s just say that.

Taylor: Yeah, just stop digging your own grave. I think with that and the wise choice to stop doing math here on this episode, we’re going to call it for our replay for Spider-Man: Homecoming. I almost just said No Way Home because all of these are so confusing. But we did, in fact, just talk about Homecoming throughout this episode. So if you’re looking forward to any of our future coverage as Marvel continues to release new content, or as we just do interesting topics to fill the weeks between new content, you can follow on your podcast platform of choice. Also, make sure that you are checking out the website on a regular basis because it is the home base of all things Sisters Assembled.

Katie: You can also give us a follow on Twitter at SisAssembledPod and Instagram and Threads at SistersAssembled. You can also find our weekly news segment Sister Scoop on YouTube, also at Sisters Assembled, so go give us a subscribe there as well. As always, keep up with all Marvel content and ours as well as Marvel just blew your mind, so let’s talk about it.