Transcript

Taylor: Hello, hello. You’re listening to Sisters Assembled, a Marvel Theory podcast. I’m Taylor.

Katie: And I’m Katie, and we’re two sisters who spend way too much time talking and thinking about the Marvel Cinematic Universe. And now we want to share our thoughts with you.

Taylor: Every week we’re breaking down a new topic relating to the MCU, from reactions to the Disney+ shows and the movies to deep dives on characters and important concepts plus news and a lot of theories. 

Taylor: All right, everyone, we are so excited to talk about Spider-Man: Across the Spider-Verse with you all today. I know we say that every episode, but I think I’m particularly jazzed this episode, mainly because for a non-MCU movie in that it doesn’t exist fully within it. This movie was fantastic. And that’s not just saying, Oh, it’s good for a non-MCU movie. I’m saying I wasn’t as excited for this as I do get excited for a full MCU movie. But this one was one of the best movies I’ve seen in a while. It was so good. There were so many moments where I just was so excited to even be in the theater at that moment, even though my theater had no AC on and it was 500 degrees and I sweat through my shirt. It was worth it because this movie was so good and I am just so excited to talk all things, reactions, and breakdowns for this film. So that’s a really, really long intro. But welcome to our Spider-Man: Across the Spider-Verse episode. Katie, I have already given a little bit of a hint of how I felt about the film, but now it is your turn. Take it away with your thoughts and reactions.

Katie: Well, I first had to say I didn’t have as much of a harrowing experience as you did. My theater was air-conditioned. Thank goodness, because we are going through I don’t even know if it’s considered the first heat wave of the summer, but it feels like it as we’re both sweating in our respective apartments at the moment as well. But no, I loved it. I loved it. Like, I genuinely don’t think there was a single moment where I and maybe this is just reminding me of like how we talked about Guardians, how we were like, you know, it was a long runtime, but every second of it was needed. But really in this film and I feel like this is not been something I can say confidently about all the other films I’ve watched, even beyond, you know, Marvel and going to the theaters for that. I was not bored. I was not waiting for it to be over. The only time I thought about the runtime was at the end because I was like, wow, I feel like now that I’m thinking about, I feel like I’ve been here for a little while and then they were like to be continued and I was like, oh, that’s why.

Taylor: Same. The only time I thought to myself, well, I did think it was a little long, only because I was roasting in there and my body was like, if you spend one more minute in this sauna, it’s going to collapse. But had I been in an appropriately air-conditioned theater, I wouldn’t have cared. But to your point, the only reason other than that I thought about timing was because I thought to myself, this movie has been on for a while and they’re not near resolution. And I was like, so nervous because I was like, at any moment they’re going to take this away from me and I’m going to have to wait until March to figure out how it ends. And I never wanted the movie to end, and I just was like, keep going. I could sit here forever, drop it like 15 degrees, but I could sit here forever and just be so happy. There were so many moments that I just was like, oh my God. I mean. Andrew, Toby.

Katie: Don’t get me started.

Taylor: Oh, my God. When he came out as the Prowler at the end and faced himself from the other universe, I was like, I just was so shook by how much I enjoyed that twist. And like, I knew when he said, you know, when his uncle said, like, I’m not the Prowler, I knew it was going to be him, but it was still so cool to see this alternate version of Miles. And I just truly, like, really enjoy the character of Miles Morales. I didn’t feel super strongly about him before, but now I am 100% invested and I want to see him in live-action because this movie has really cemented this character as a rising star in my book, and I am so excited to see where he goes in the future because I love this character.

Katie: Yeah, not only am I excited about it, I just think in general this was awesome.

Taylor: Yeah.

Katie: And I don’t want to get too much into the art and stuff because I know for a fact that this is that’s been a big topic. I mean, since they did the first movie, how these movies are physically portrayed and put together, like the animation, the different types of animation, all of it is stunning. But I feel like you know, that has been a discussion since the first one. This isn’t the first. This isn’t our first rodeo. You know what I mean? Like, we’ve been here, we’ve seen this type of art done. But beyond just that, I will say that was just and that’s what you need the theater experience for because you don’t get that same type of visual experience just sitting at home, maybe watching it on a TV or even a laptop or phone. This is one of those films that I was just so engrossed in from the very first second. But I also was shocked that the different stories it told because I expected to follow Miles because nothing told me otherwise. And I was really thrown off that we were following Gwen at the very beginning. 

Talor: Me too. 

Katie: I loved it. You all know I’m a Hailee Steinfeld girl like that is my girl right there. So I was 100% behind it. And I also know she doesn’t go by Spider-Gwen in the movie. Essentially to me, obviously, that’s what she is. But Spider-Gwen’s also like my calling. So seeing her background and seeing like, her storyline, how she ended up with the whole Spider Squad, I was really thrown off because I was like, oh, this isn’t Miles. This is a different intro and a different take than I thought we were going to be getting. And then obviously we see the intro of Miles once we get to him, but I really liked that it showed her that they could have just skipped over that they didn’t have to address it. They didn’t have to go into her character like that. And so I enjoyed that they did because I think we’re no longer following this story as a Miles Morales story. This is now a Miles Morales and a Gwen Stacy story fully like these are both our main protagonists.

Taylor: Yeah, and I think what was really interesting about that intro, because it really struck me as well, was that it completely put me on the back foot from the first moment. And I remember thinking when they were showing all the different logos and the studios and everything, that it was a lot more somber music than I was expecting. And I was immediately like, you know, when they play stuff like that at the beginning like my mind immediately goes back to my first ever trauma moment in the theater, which was Infinity War. And so I go back there and immediately I was on high alert. I was like something bad is going to happen. This film is not going to be sunshine and rainbows. Like I was ready for something horrible. And then it did, you know, focus on Gwen, which was awesome. I was struck by her like grace. I think what’s cool is like showing the different versions of Spider-people and the different ways that they move. Like obviously Jessica Drew like has her motorbike and she’s like a hot mama. And then there’s Miles who’s just kind of like all limbs, but like also really cool looking. But then Gwen on the other hand, you know, she is so graceful in the way she spins her webs and the way she moves in the air versus, again, like Miguel, and like the way he webs is so aggressive and violent. And it was so cool to like, compare all of the different Spider-Men or Spider-People and the way that they move. And I was really struck, especially in that early scene with Gwen about how graceful she was in the air. I was like, she’s so cool.

Katie: Yeah, and that’s why I like the focus on her. I think she was I mean, she obviously was so cool from the first film, but like seeing that focus and seeing her be the one that kind of introduces us to the main conflict of the film, I really enjoyed because it wasn’t until and I guess, I mean, at this point, we all knew if you didn’t see this film, you shouldn’t be here. So it’s okay to jump around a little bit, but finding out Miles is the main anomaly and is the main like dare I say almost variant like obviously we don’t know that at the beginning, so you’re kind of like, okay, why is Miles not the one introducing the situation? Why is he not more involved in it? And then as you’re going through this film, you’re obviously seeing it, you’re seeing the different reasons why and then they say it and I think they say it within the last probably 30 minutes of the film. They tell us why and then we have a big chase scene and we have everything else that follows. But like, you know, it all revolves around Miles. But we’re seeing it from a completely different perspective from the very start. So I just thought it was so beautifully done, written, visualized everything was so perfect. And I don’t give anything a ten out of ten just for the record, because I don’t think anything can be a ten out of ten even no matter how many times I say it’s perfect, but this was a nine, even a 9.99 I’ll give that out of ten, because this film, I mean, from beginning to end was just amazing.

Taylor: Yeah, I mean, it truly was incredible. And you mentioned the idea of Miles kind of being the first anomaly, and I just thought that was so brilliant because we talked last episode in our predictions, well I guess that wasn’t last episode, but we talked in our predictions episode about, you know, why is it that they don’t want Miles there? And you had made the point like, well, he seems to kind of do his own thing. And it’s interesting because he’s allowed to do his own thing because in essence, he is not even supposed to I mean, he’s supposed to exist, obviously. We saw that in the Prowler version of him from Earth 42, but he would have had a very different trajectory as Miles Morales, not Spider-Man. And I just thought that was so interesting. And I also, like, really fell for the guy because none of this was his intention. He didn’t put the spider into his universe from another universe. He didn’t go, ‘Hey, Spider, come bite me.’ But then he picked up the mantle and is trying to do the right thing with it. And he didn’t, you know, try to start that black hole thing in Mumbatten, he didn’t try to start that. He was just trying to do the right thing. And I think that’s what makes Miles such an interesting character and what this particular arc so interesting is because, you know, he’s trying to do the right thing all the way through and it just happens to be, quote-unquote, the wrong thing to Miguel. But that’s all a gray area in terms and we’re going to talk about the canon idea in a second, so don’t you guys worry. But, you know, I think it’s interesting that Miles views right and wrong in terms of life and death. Stop the bad guy, and save the person, right. Whereas Miguel views the right and the wrong as preserving the canon and the wider universe. And it’s two very different ways of looking at that. And they’re obviously opposing. And I just think that’s such an interesting arc. It’s an interesting narrative to build a film and I guess really two films around. And I just was so pleasantly surprised and impressed with the way that they pulled it off because it could have gotten really heady. It could have gotten really difficult, but it was easy to understand. It made sense. Everybody’s motivations were once revealed clearly. And I just can’t say enough because I just am still on such a high from how amazing that film was.

Katie: And I want to go off your point there talking about, you know, Miguel and Miles, different ideas of what’s right and wrong, because Gwen even says at one point ‘We’re supposed to be the good guys.’ And I think and you said it beautifully in our predictions episode, how one thing can go, you know, somebody who thinks that they’re doing the right thing so aggressively, they become the villain or they do the wrong thing because they’re tunnel visioned into thinking, you know, this is the right thing. And so, I will say, I found myself a lot throughout the film thinking I get why Miguel is doing what he’s doing. I understand it because we have and maybe it’s an almost unique perspective because if you just watch these films, that’s one thing. But knowing what the MCU, what we’ve seen with the MCU we’ll get into all this as Taylor said in a second. But seeing how the MCU has done the Multiversal stuff so far and the mistakes Doctor Strange and our Spider-Man have made, I think it kind of puts that into a lot of perspectives that Miguel is singlehandedly trying to control the Multiverse and the holes that are being created in it. And that’s why he makes the reference to Earth 19999. Wait, I lost count on my fingers. Or as we know it, Earth 616. You know, that’s why he makes that reference because he is trying to stop these anomalies from taking place. So I mean, I get it. He is like strong holding the entire Multiverse right now through different Spider-Men and trying to have different Spider-Men hold it all together. So I did find myself very sympathetic because I was like, he was just he was through a very harrowing thing. He is the only Spider-Man that accidentally, without knowing, discovered that this could happen. And the way, he discovered it was by seeing a daughter that he wasn’t he didn’t technically have but became like adoptive, but also like kind of replaced her father kind of thing. And he lost this child that he’d grown so affectionate and, you know, loved so much. And so you sit there and you’re like, wow, Like, you see why this happened. He understood and he was the one who realized, you know, if we let this happen, more people are going to die, more universes are going to die. 

Taylor: Yeah, I think it’s time to get into it, because I think this is going to be if I had to take a guess, the bulk of our episode, it’s the Multiverse. There is one thing I lied, there’s one thing I wanted to say, and the only complaint that I have with this film is the lack of end credits scenes because I understand that it is directly leading into the next film, however, not one that really counts. I mean, I don’t think there really were any other than Miles will return, which isn’t that doesn’t even count like in the MCU. That’s a slate after the end credits. So that was my only thing was where’s that? And then we’ll get into the Multiverse. But I had to put that out there.

Katie:  You know, I actually didn’t have a problem with it because it was to be continued. Thinking about it, I’m not sure if Infinity War had any kind of scenes. 

Taylor: Yeah, but everybody had just died. So that was like, that’s very different.

Katie: But that was the only other instance so far that was kind of to be continued. Infinity War left us in that place of like, oh, clearly we’re getting a second one sometime soon because all our heroes just died. So I think about that and we didn’t have end credits there because what would you do an end credit for you waiting for the second installment. And so that’s kind of why like, yeah, I waited I mean, there was a group of us at all waited.

Taylor: Wait. Wasn’t the end credits scene Captain Marvel? Her beeper.

Katie: Oh, yeah. Yeah. But to be fair, that just set her up.

Taylor: Well, it still is an end credit, though.

Katie: Yeah, that’s true. I totally forgot about that because that didn’t feel important to me at the time. 

Taylor: You’re terrible. 

Katie: Well, all my characters, literally all of my characters died 

Taylor: In the grand scheme of things. It was easy to forget when you had just had a great trauma forced onto your eyeballs. So yeah.

Katie: Dude, literally the only one who made it out was Black Widow. And then she died in the next movie I was like what?

Taylor: You had a rough, like 11, 12 months. Okay, we got it. 

Katie: Yeah, that was hard, but I guess throwing out my previous statement. But even then, I really sat there and I was like, you know, it’s to be continued. There’s a whole other movie. What do they need to hint towards? It’s going to be the culmination of all of this. So I kind of just was like, I don’t really need one, you know?

Taylor: That’s fair. I recognize that argument. I still sat in a really hot theater and waited for one, so I was kind of annoyed because it was an extra 10 minutes in a sweltering hot place that made my skin melt off. But anyway, moving into the Multiverse discussion because like I mentioned before, I think this is going to be kind of the bulk of what we want to talk about. You know, we’ve seen a few different takes on the Multiverse within the MCU and now outside of the MCU. So I think, for the most part, there were things that aligned right? The idea of traveling between them. I really enjoyed that we got to see Venom’s universe and he actually got a number now. So I enjoyed also just sort of a quick aside, I enjoyed that they numbered every universe that we went to in my head that helped me map it out so nicely.

Katie: Dude, not even just that, but I loved that they were adding little comic explanations of things like they were explaining what like a term meant, or this is what’s happening, here’s a little bit of background. And I was like, this is awesome because you just brought a comic book to life. That is what this entire movie was, was truly, without fail, a literal comic book just on the big screen.

Taylor: 100%. That’s such a good point. I love those explainers. And like I said, having it clearly laid out to me what each Earth was as we visited it. Brilliant. No more questions about any of that. Loved it. And I think that part really to me aligned with what we’ve seen thus far in the MCU, the ability to travel between. I do have some questions, you know, timeline-wise, understanding that this Multiverse has clearly existed for Miles for years because we obviously had the first one in 2019, well before all of the events that opened it. I want to start off, though, by talking through what Miguel says about Miles, which was the idea that Miles kind of opened it and there’s this kind of like line where he says to Jessica where he’s like, you know, why he can’t be involved, like, look at what he did with the reactor. And candidly, like I said, I still have not had the chance to see the first one. But I do remember that. I mean, we saw it was a little bit of a flashback, the reactor and things like that. So I don’t remember exactly how that went down. But Miguel clearly blames Miles for kind of creating chaos within the Multiverse. How does that then fit in with our little triumvirate of chaos? Because he blames our Spider-Man, Tom Holland, as well. From his perspective, it’s Miles and 616 or what he says is ten, nine, nine, nine, nine, nine. Their fault. They’re combo fault. But what he doesn’t know is there’s a whole lot of other crap happening on 1099999.

Katie: Isn’t it 19999? You do that every time. 

Taylor: Well, you know what it is? It’s because Miguel’s 2099 so I just go, yeah, 199999. So he blames just the Spider-Men for it. But what like I’m saying he doesn’t really understand that there’s other stuff going on in 199999 that is also leading into it namely Wanda and Loki and a little bit of Doctor Strange, which he also mentions. But then how does Miles play into all of that and the ability to like travel between it? Like is he part of that secret Multiverse source that brought us that? And we’re going to find that out later when Miles joins the MCU? I don’t know. Like I definitely want to get your thoughts on it because it’s something that I’ve been like ruminating about.

Katie: Well, I think in all honesty, you got to look at it in two different ways. So I start by looking at it from Miles’ perspective. And so I have to say, when Miguel started explaining this, I genuinely was on the edge of my seat because I was with my boyfriend and he was trying to tell me something and I was like, not now. I was like, hold on, I need to listen to this.

Taylor: This part is important. Don’t speak.

Katie: Yeah. I was like, he’s explaining things. I need to know what’s happening. And so first off, thank you, Miguel, for dumbing it down for us that don’t understand the Multiverse half the time. But I was on the edge of my seat and I also have to mention the jump scare of Andrew. And I mean jumpscare in the best of ways, but I was like, what the heck? And I smacked my boyfriend that because I was like, Andrew is on the screen! But anyway, I think first off, it was so well explained. The fact of these canon episodes. Let’s start there, or I don’t want to call them episodes, canon moments. First off, great play on words, how we always talk about things that are canon or not canon. Amazing play on words. But I thought they were very well explained in the sense of these things need to happen so the universe doesn’t fall apart. To me, that’s saying everybody follows their timeline and if they don’t, then that variant would happen.

Taylor: Well, and here’s the thing too, and what I really liked about that canon idea was we have already explored that within the MCU. If you all remember the Doctor Strange episode of What If, which is called If Doctor Strange Lost His Heart Instead of His Hand. I only remember because it’s such a long-

Katie: I was really shocked you remembered that.

Taylor: I don’t. That’s the one title I remember. But in that episode we see that he keeps going back and back and back and back and trying to save Christine. And no matter what they explain, I don’t remember what terminology they used, but they said, no, this event is going to happen. It needs to happen. So no matter what you do, you are not going to save her. And so I thought that that married beautifully with what Miguel was explaining about the canon, like, no matter what, as a Spider-Man, you’re going to lose a captain. You’re going to lose, you know, an aunt or an uncle. You’re going to lose – well, the parent thing obviously doesn’t apply to Miles, but like most of them lost their parents. It also doesn’t apply to Gwen. So we’ll stick with the aunt and uncle and the captain. These are all seminal moments within Spider-Man’s experience. And so, again, like that really dovetailed nicely with Christine’s going to die every single time.

Katie: Right and I think that’s a really great example because I think and what is so weird because we don’t really know where it’s playing in the MCU, it’s just like Across the Spiderverse. It’s like, okay, like there are references, there are things being pointed out here, but like, where does it actually exist? We’re not sure yet, especially because, you know, Vision Ultron or Ultron vision, whichever one comes first. You know, it was really out here destroying quite a few different universes. So if that is true to the MCU, we are lucky that we just were spared, apparently. But I do like that connection and I liked the idea of it. I thought it made a lot of sense and like I was saying that with the MCU, I kind of see how they explain variants. Variants I feel like almost the TVA was like one step too far away like they were thinking variants are people that come out of place because people can cause the canon events to not take place. They almost didn’t realize that it was the canon events that needed to happen more so than it was just the variants themselves. But that’s the same idea. They stop the variants because the varients stop the canon events. 

Taylor: Yeah, no. I actually love that. I didn’t really think about, you know, I kind of obviously saw the relationship between what Miguel was doing and the TVA, but I never thought about how the TVA focuses on the people. And the people are the problem, but they don’t focus on the decisions they’re making. And really it’s those decisions to save the captain, to save the girl that are causing the variant timelines to happen because of these canon moments. So then I almost wonder like, are there less Multiverses or less universes in the Multiverse than we thought? Because not every decision is a canon decision, right? So like if I decide to walk down one block today and another block tomorrow, that’s not going to be, you know, outside of my normal route. That’s not going to cause another universe or a variant universe because it’s not a canon moment. But if I decided, you know, I go back in time and I decided to go to a different university, that is a canon moment because that completely changes the trajectory of my life. So it’s almost like the TVA was a little bit to detailed in it in the sense of like, oh, every single thing has to be exactly the same versus like, oh, if you had let a few things go, almost like where Loki went into, oh, I forgot what it’s called now. But when he went into a moment before a catastrophic event and he said, what I do now doesn’t make any difference because it’s not going to change that these people are all going to die. And that’s where Loki and Sylvie were hiding. I almost wonder if it’s less about the fact that that moment was going to kill everyone and more about the fact that that wasn’t a canon moment. What he was doing was not going to affect the canon because all those people were going to die. The canon moment was the death of those people at the hands of Mount Vesuvius, at the moons colliding. Those are the canon moments. He disrupts those. Then we start to get variants.

Katie: Exactly. And that’s what I followed with. And I actually didn’t put it together until they were talking about Miles and how Miles is the anomaly. And I was like, okay, what? Like, I understood the reasoning. I totally understood that. But I was like, but why in the long run is that how that exists? But then that kind of opens another question and we can maybe table it for later. But I want to put it out there before I forget it. If he’s an anomaly, why was he never stopped? That means that his universe’s canon event was clearly – so like also why was his universe not exploding essentially because the universe’s canon event was Peter Parker was supposed to be a Spider-Man. Which also I just want to add, I think this is a really unique way of talking about Miles and having Miles be the one singular Miles. I think that is really cool and that the only – I mean there’s obviously other variants, but that, Miles, is the only version of a Spider-Man that’s a Miles. I thought that was really cool.

Taylor: Well, yeah and I think to your point, like, it sets them apart so much because as they were walking in, you heard Gwen go, ‘Hey, Peter.’ ‘Hey, Peter.’ ‘Hey, Peter.’ Which, you know, just as a quick aside, must be horrifying for her because of the relationship she had with her Peter and his death. So now she just has to meet every other Peter from every other universe, like her own personal hell loop from Lucifer. That poor girl. Just a quick aside, but, you know, to your point, like she was saying. Hey, Miles. Hey, Miles. Like, obviously we know like, when people think of Spider-Man more often than not they’re thinking of Peter Parker. So it makes sense that there’s so many Peter Parker’s. But it is interesting that there’s not just less Miles Morales’ there’s just one Miles Morales as Spider-Man. That’s super cool. 

Katie: Well, but then, like I said, that makes me wonder why did his universe not fall apart?

Taylor: Yeah, well, let’s get into this whole idea of the universe falling apart, because that’s the place where I think it starts to diverge from what we’ve learned in the MCU. MCU, when something let’s take this canon idea and run with it. Canon event gets disrupted, gets changed whatever, in the MCU we’re taught, this creates an alternate universe from that point on we’re coming off the sacred circle and we are branching into a new universe, they work together until that moment, right? What Miguel taught us and what we saw in this film is that it’s not a branching moment. That universe from the get go dies. So it’s not a birth, it’s actually a death. And so my question is, I guess as I’m trying to work through it and this literally just popped into my head, is it the idea that, all right, we started with a sacred circle, right? As everybody has taught us, you have the Multiverse now. That’s why we have all these Spider People existing. So, you know, you have, let’s say, a branch. Now, if a canon moment from the branch doesn’t happen, it does. That’s when the branch dies. The only thing that’s a wrinkle there is what determines a canon moment in the branch if it’s a divergent of a previous canon moment, because theoretically there should be no canon in the new branch. If that’s just a completely new universe with a whole new set of rules.

Katie: Oh, I might say something we’re going to hate.

Taylor: Oh, no.

Katie: I know, I know, I know. But so we’re saying the sacred circle is the be all end all time line, right?

Taylor: It has to be. Otherwise all the rules are out the window.

Katie: But that’s what we’ve decided over the past couple of months. And we have not been yet told otherwise. So we’re sticking with it. The sacred circle’s the be all end all. That’s our current timeline. That timeline will revolve in it’s circular time forever, right? What if with the Multiverse being open the branches, yeah, they’re initially branches, but they all eventually become their own circles of time. They create their own circles of time. So each timeline is still circular by the end. It’s just they are coming off from a certain event and have to create a new storyline around it.

Taylor: I align with that and I think it makes a lot of sense. I don’t hate it. My question though is what then determines – so He Who Remains right? He is the one who determined kind of what those in my head if we’re taking this canon thing all the way, he’s the one who determined what those canon events were and created the TVA to prune off anybody who messed up a canon event, right. But without a He Who Remains in every universe, who is deciding what these canon moments are, that the universe cannot exist without.

Katie: Could we argue, Miguel?

Taylor: I mean. Yeah, well, no. Miguel figured out the pattern and explained the pattern, but the actual destruction of the universes were happening not because of Miguel. Unless we turn around and find out that Miguel actually is behind all of this, which you know, I’m not saying is impossible, but let’s just say that theory potentially aside, these universes are being destroyed. He didn’t destroy his own universe with his child inside it. Right. So what decided that a canon moment, also known as the other Miguel’s death had to happen, otherwise that universe could not survive. Like there has to be something out there that is deciding that. Is it the watcher? Is it some sort of cosmic being? Is it an Eternal.

Katie: Or is it just and this is going to sound so stupid, but is it just how it works? Put inside somebody deciding it. Is it just the system of things? Think about gravity. We don’t really get it. We know it does what it does. I’m sure there are people in science realm who like can be like x+z and 17 and b and y and this is gravity and they could explain it like fully, but like to us we’re just kind of like it’s how the world works or the ozone layer. We’re just like, it protects us and yeah, there’s the ins and outs of it, but for the most part it’s just like the world created that and we’re just living with it. So what if this is just how the Multiverse works? When those moments don’t happen the Multiverse itself, the timelines all know it and they’re just like, well, I can’t keep going if this pivotal moment doesn’t happen.

Taylor: Two things to that. One, I hate that with every fiber of my being, I think it’s very valid. And I think you make a really good point. Personally, if that’s the answer I’m going to get at the end of all of these headaches that I’ve put myself through, and I know you have as well, I’m not going to be a happy camper. I need a solid, definitive answer that someone or something is behind it and it’s not just how it works. I would hate it. Do I think it’s entirely possible that that’s what they’re going to tell us at the end of this Multiverse saga? Absolutely. But that doesn’t mean I have to like it.

Katie: Well, because keep in mind, the sacred circle existed before the Multiverse, right? This circle of time just lived its life. No one did anything about it. And then the Multiverse is open and now it’s like, you know.

Taylor: Theoretically, there was a Multiverse. Then it was trimmed down, and then now there’s a Multiverse again.

Katie: Yeah, but I’m saying for a while it was just a sacred circle. And it was just that timeline because He Who Remains made sure the TVA in that timeline existed and pruned it – cool. They were pruning it. But now that there’s nobody pruning it in the main timeline anymore and the Multiverse opened, who’s to sit there and say that these universes have to have pivotal moments happen, or they just almost get enveloped into like a black hole?

Taylor: Well, that was my second point, and I just want to get your thoughts on this. I want to understand what is the difference like. So, for example, we have the sacred circle a canon moments disrupted, and now we have a new universe. Right? But then why is it that in some cases a new universe is created and in other cases it’s entirely a universal collapsed? What is the threshold for collapse versus creation of another universe?

Katie: I think it deals with the canon event, right? So if the canon events never happen, that’s a collapse. But I think if, say, Loki, for example, in 2012. We all know 2012 Loki would have made it so that some canon event further down the road didn’t happen. We know that just because he’s Loki, so he was a threat, they had to get rid of him.

Taylor: Well, not to mention he needed to go on the rest of his journey and save Jane and blah blah, blah.

Katie: Well, right. That’s what I mean though, that those could all be considered canon events to his character. And because they won’t happen if he’s still chilling, because now we’re missing a Loki and like all sorts of other problems. So I’m thinking if a canon event doesn’t happen for certain, whatever, it has to collapse. But if it doesn’t necessarily if it’s just a different decision in a canon event that’s what a different universe can be created.

Taylor: So essentially same outcome, different way.

Katie: Yeah. So like even you know how they said like The Avengers had to go back in time, That was part of what that was. What if only two of them went back in time? They still did what they did. But, you know, maybe it you know it would obviously have affected things, maybe Natasha wouldn’t have gone back. She would have lived like things would have happened differently. But they still went back in time to get the stones, so it still would have affected the timeline, but it wouldn’t have played it out perfectly, which could have created a different timeline when Natasha stayed alive. That’s what I’m going with, is that the canon events are going are like the main meal. They’re the main platter. If you don’t eat the main platter, the whole thing can collapse. If you eat part of the main platter, but not the the main part. If I don’t eat the chicken but I eat the vegetables, then a new timeline might exist.

Taylor: That seems a little bit Swiss cheese and it’s logic, but I also kind of follow it.

Katie: I’m going with that because I don’t fully know. But also keep in mind, think about how Doctor Strange caused an incursion. He went to a different timeline and caused damage.

Taylor: Yes. And I thought about that. The only thing is there’s a difference between a full universal collapse, which we saw in this film and an incursion, which is two universes essentially hitting one another, right?

Katie: Right.

Taylor: So I guess that’s almost like a third variable in there. You know, what causes an incursion versus causes a collapse versus causes, you know, a variant universe.

Katie: Yeah, And that is a good question because Miles did the same thing, Doctor Strange did, but somehow, Doctor Strange caused an incursion and Miles collapsed the universe. But this is why this is why in my thought process. Miles, when he went to a different time line or universe affected a canon event and that is what collapsed the universe versus when Doctor Strange went to a different universe. He – it’s not a canon event that all of that Illuminati died that’s not a canon event that wasn’t supposed to happen.

Taylor: Well right because she was never supposed to be there.

Katie: Right. That’s what can cause the incursion then  because now you brought our universe in and that’s how they’re hitting each other. Because you brought into that universe. Does that make sense?

Taylor: Kind of. But that opens up another issue for Secret Wars I just want to point out. If we’re saying that the universe that we are colliding with is 1610, as is canon in the in the comic that is Miles’s universe, we talked about that before. If we’re saying then that’s the Illuminati earth. That means we’ve seen Miles’ Earth in live action.

Katie: Yeah, that’s too far into the weeds that I don’t want to go into just yet. 

Taylor: That’s fair. I’m just pointing that out. I think if we’re going to say that, that needs to be noted, that if that’s true, that is the logical end to that thought process.

Katie: But that’s why that’s what I’m thinking is the difference there is when you effect, it’s all about the canon event and how it’s affected. 

Taylor: I mean, I think that’s the best answer for what we’ve got now. I just I still want a rule book.

Katie: Because I think about it this way. Oh, here’s a great example. So I just talked about why Miles event didn’t create an incursion but created a collapse of the universe. I think what would have created a new time or a new universe would have been if the Spider-Man that had been that universe that I don’t remember his name.

Taylor: I don’t either. But he was hilarious. 

Katie: Yeah, I know. And for reference, I’m talking the universe that was based off of India.

Taylor: Mumbattan. It was a combo between Mumbai and Manhattan.

Katie: Mumbattan, I like that. Okay. So that universe, if I think if he would have saved the cop and not his girlfriend as he was supposed to, that would have caused a new universe, but it was still a canon event. He just made a different choice.

Taylor: So he still would have lost one. 

Katie: Yes. 

Taylor: But the one that he would have lost would have been different.

Katie: Yes. He would have changed his canon event by making a different choice. But it still happened. When the canon event doesn’t happen, the universe collapses. And when complete unexpected things due to people meddling in the wrong universe happen, then incursions take place. Boom.

Taylor: But, Miles, that’s the thing, though. Miles is from a different universe meddling.

Katie: But he affected the canon event. That was the problem. 

Taylor: Can we say an incursion happens when you create an event that is not canon? 

Katie: Yeah, well, that’s what I mean.

Taylor: Yeah. So, like, Wanda going and killing the Illuminati was not supposed to happen.

Katie: No, obviously.

Taylor: Therefore creating an incursion. 

Katie: Yeah. When somebody from a different universe goes and affects the timeline in any way that can create the incursion. But if the canon is stopped or whatever, that’s when the universe falls apart. 

Taylor: Okay.

Katie: But if the other person in the universe, from a different universe just does whatever in the universe and screws up the timeline that causes the incursion.

Taylor: I think I can get behind these rules that we’ve now just made up here and may or may not be right about.

Katie: Marvel should hire us. I think I have a better storyline.

Taylor: I mean, honestly, like, even if we’re not writing storylines, can we just be the people fact check and say, actually, this is how it needs to be in order to fit in the rules that we’ve already established so we’re not contradicting ourselves with every new release.

Katie: I think that’s best way to think about it. I think it is.

Taylor: Yeah, because now we’ve seen three very different results that happen with movement and meddling in the Multiverse. You can either have a collapse, an incursion or a new universe.

Katie: Yeah, and I think that’s how they take place. But speaking of this, then we have our good friend Spot.

Taylor: Yeah, let’s get into it.

Katie: But let me start because never did I think I would be right about anything in this movie. And somehow he was the one I was right about. I called it and I even called that I thought he would be saved for the third movie to be the big one in that.

Taylor: You did. You did. I know we definitely talked extensively about his very interesting powers potentially being multiversal. He took a quick turn. You know, he was riding down that villain hill pretty fast. And he got dark and I mean, like both like physically and emotionally, mentally, very quickly. And I thought that was actually a really interesting depiction, too, physically, to view him. He was obviously white with the black spots at the beginning. And then as he in more, I’m assuming, dark matter, dark energy, I don’t know. I’m not a physicist. As he started to absorb more of that, his actual depiction, you know, flipped to being mainly dark with the white spots. So that was also really interesting. I thought he was fun at the beginning and then he was like, really scary at the end. And I’m really excited to see him in the next film.

Katie: I also think the dark matter was probably like, think about I think Electro is a great example. How he was like not inherently a bad person and then he like, fell into the vat of like electric eels and then like, he still wasn’t a bad person yet but he had that little bit inside of him of just anger at people and it just grew worse and that’s how he became a villain. So I kind of saw that in Spot to where he just he had this anger already. And I mean, the guy was just trying to steal an ATM. Like, I’m not trying to act like a criminal is not a criminal, but like, he really wasn’t multiversal threat level at all from the very beginning. But he had this anger and then, you know, Miles, which I thought I have to say, I just have to give a quick mention how they brought up the quick wit of all this Spider-Men and or a Spider People and how they’re like, do we use it as a coping mechanism? I really was like, oh, they’re calling them out for this. But Spot even said it’s cruel, you know, what you’re saying is cruel. And then you just see him as he’s trying to win. I guess is really the best way to put it. He’s just trying to get his revenge because he blames Miles, which I feel like is a little bit of a complicated way to blame Miles. But I also see they have a much more intertwined relationship that I think was interesting because we didn’t get to see any of it.

Taylor: Yeah. And I also really liked how it creates a through line between the films because I think if you don’t have that relationship, it can seem very disjointed, right? There’s even been like many people mentioned, like Miles is grown up, like there’s clearly been like a passage of time. He’s upset he hasn’t seen his friends in a while. So there’s been time between the first movie and the second movie. And I think if you don’t have that throughline that he inadvertently created his next two movies villains in the first film, it can feel like they’re very disjointed, and especially because two and three are like we talked about at the beginning, first movie, to direct sequel. And so it can make one feel kind of like, where does this belong? You know, it’s an origin, but how does that fit? But I love the fact that, like, he didn’t know he created his villain that’s going to antagonize him for the rest of the series in that first film as he’s just learning how to be Spider-Man, as he’s figuring it all out, he’s laying the seeds for these other movies. And I think it’s such a smart and subtle way to tie the whole trilogy together, because really now this trilogy, I mean, it’s obviously Gwen has moved up in prominence as well as the main character, but if you’re looking at it from the lens of Miles, it’s a Spot versus Miles trilogy. That’s what it is.

Katie: Well, he calls himself his main nemesis.

Taylor: Exactly. And now through that development, you’re seeing that happen and you can actually realistically say like, oh, I understand how that all came to be. 

Katie: And I like it even more because Spot has the added thing of being like, I created you. And did he? Not really. It was fully an accident. Like the spider could have literally bit anybody else. Like it happened. It was an accident. Which also is why when Miguel’s like constantly blaming Miles and I’m like Spot literally did it like he brought the spider into the wrong universe. Miles, you know, like, just got it bit. 

Taylor: Yeah. Wrong place, wrong time and it’s all this kid’s fault.

Katie: Yeah. 

Taylor: But it is interesting that, like, they, in essence, created each other. Spot created Miles, to your point, by opening the door between the universes and then in return Miles created spot by, you know, having a little bit of a rough go as Spider-Man there for a minute. So it’s so interesting how like all of that like there literally would not be a Miles as Spider-Man without Spot. And now we’ve come full circle to the point where he literally wants to destroy him because of what happened in the first film.

Katie: Do you blame him? Because I think he even says he’s like, you know, I got you bit by a spider on accident and you became a hero. You blew me up in a reactor, and this is what I became. And I got I lost everything because of it instead. And so I see that it’s like such an interesting relationship because that is what makes a nemesis so awesome to a hero is when they are just so tied together and obviously, like Spot is not, you know, in the comics one of the most well known Peter Parker nemesis. And obviously I know this is Miles, but like just Spider-Man in general, not really one of the more well known ones when I think is Spider-Man one. The best nemesis is obviously the Goblin like, of course, or Doc Ock, even those two are probably pretty high up there. And Venom is the last one. I think those are probably his top three that like everybody thinks of, you know. But I just think Spot’s so interesting because as he is an inter-multiversal being yeah. On accident kind of because he accidentally sucked himself into his own hole.

Taylor: By kicking his out butt.

Katie: Yeah, so on accident. But he finds out he has this ability to take the holes that physically become created on his body literally let him transfer himself around the Multiverse. Weird, but I’ll allow it.

Taylor: Yeah, but also kind of like America. Like she, too, couldn’t control it. It’s very interesting. And, you know, we compared him to her last episode. I think we were spot on in the sense that, like, again, like these are two people who didn’t really want necessarily these powers, couldn’t really control them and then inadvertently found that, hey, I can actually travel the Multiverse. So I think that’s super interesting, too. I mean, I don’t think Spot’s going to make it beyond Beyond, but it would be interesting if he did, because there are other beings out there who, while, through different mechanisms, have similar capabilities.

Katie: I would be intrigued then to see him get spit out in like a Tom Holland MCU movie. 

Taylor: Yeah.

Katie: I think that would be a really interesting thing because I will say, and I don’t want to go too far from the point here, but I do want to say I find it interesting we see all these different Spider-Men and Spider People and Spider Things because they’re not just people. There’s cats and dinosaurs and all sorts of other things. 

Taylor: Oh my God, the horse in the mask killed me. I just died. 

Katie: Well, it sucked because it was all happening so fast, and I just wanted to be able to pinpoint some of them. And it just so much was happening. But, you know, we have all these different spider related beings and I’m like, okay, but something we learned in No Way Home is not every place has an Avengers. Which is really weird to me because this to me took it as no matter what, there will be a radioactive spider that will bite somebody. 

Taylor: Yeah. 

Katie: Or something. I took that as there will always be a Spider-Man in every single universe. But there won’t always be Avengers.

Taylor: I mean, yes, but unless there is the potential that these are just the Spider-Men from the Spider-Men universes, it’s like if you’re looking at an infinite Multiverse, you know what I’m saying? Like there say there are a million Spider People there, Spider Things, Spider Abled living beings, that’s what we will call them, Spider Ableed living beings selves. And there are like a million selves there, but there are 2 million universes, right? Like, I guess what I’m saying is like, you can’t know what isn’t there because there’s not necessarily space for negative space.

Katie: Right. I guess my point is more that it seems that there’s more of a constant in having Spider-Men than there are Avengers. Because, granted, it’s not like anybody sat here and opened up the conversation, but nobody gave the implication that there are other super beings around them that aren’t, you know, the Spider Beings from the other universes. That’s just a kind of intriguing thought. But that’s why I’m like, oh, Spot could be really interesting in the MCU at some point, because we don’t just have Spider-Man. We have all these other heroes. To your point, we have ones that can travel the Multiverse. So I don’t know, it could be interesting. But also, I think he’s kind of terrifying. By the end of the film, I was like, wow, I don’t like you. 

Taylor: Yeah, he came a long way in terms of like my level of fear. Like at first I just thought he was a goofball, but now I no longer think he’s a goofball. And I thought it was also interesting that, like, that sentiment was also repeated by the spider abled living beings in that, you know, they called him twice on two separate occasions separately, like not together the villain of the week. And that I think almost more than the fact that his life was ruined really, really got to him, that he didn’t even feel like he was worth their time more than just like, oh, just this villain I’m just going to get. And then I’m never going to think about it again. Like, that’s why he kept repeating the idea of like, I’m arch nemesis. Like I’m not just the villain of the way. And it kind of mirrors the audience I think if our reactions are anything to go by in the sense that both you and I were like who is this guy? Like, he’s kind of funky. And now I’m like, actually, I will have nightmares about this guy and his terrifying non face face.

Katie: On my prediction of him becoming more and like becoming the big villain that will be part of the third film. If I threw that out and I mainly I gave that prediction because why not? You know, that’s what we do here. But putting that aside, I don’t know how much of a role I thought he was going to play in this movie. And he ended up obviously playing the long game because maybe he wasn’t always on the screen and maybe he was only there for a five minute time frame in the sense of a two hour and 20 minute movie. But now he’s set himself up to be in the third one. So I thought that was really well done. And I was like, you know, I’m ready for whatever he has to bring because he has a really cool power and clearly has a lot of power because he’s able to do it through the Multiverse. So I think he’s cool. I’m really excited for the third one and to see like how he’s taken down.

Taylor: Yeah, and that is the perfect segway into our final segment of the episode. We obviously can’t rate our predictions for the end credits scene since there weren’t any, so we’re going to swap that section out for a rapid fire predictions for Beyond because believe it or not, it’s only about nine months away, which is insane.

Katie: Thank God though. 

Taylor: I know I literally was like I went with my best friend and she was like, oh my God, I have to wait for the next one is like, But we don’t have the week four years. We just have to wait nine months. It’s okay. It’s almost here. Yay for push backs. But Katie, hit me with your top two rapid fire predictions for Beyond.

Katie: Well, first one for sure. And this is not going to be a surprise. We’re getting live action somewhere in this. I don’t think it’s a shock for a second that we saw Andrew and Tobey and you know who we didn’t see? Tom. And you know why? Because I think he’ll be in the last one.

Taylor: But we did see someone from Tom’s universe. We saw Donald Glover’s Uncle Aaron.

Katie: Yeah but he’s not that I didn’t take that he was that same person.

Taylor: Oh, I don’t think it’s definitive enough either way.

Katie: Fair. But yeah, also, though, I just love him because I watched Community and he was just the he was like one of the best characters. So I just like I adore him. As soon as I saw, I was like, oh my God, but yes, we did theoretically. But from my I just didn’t take him that he was necessarily from Tom’s universe. But regardless, I think we saw Andrew, I think we saw Tobey. I think the reason we didn’t see Tom is because they’re holding out the big and the current one for the third movie. That is my first prediction. Secondly, so first off, I guess I should just announce we all saw that they Sony confirmed there’s going to be a live action Miles Morales movie. Oh, Taylor didn’t see it. 

Taylor: No. I literally got home from the film last night, sat on TikTok for like an hour, went to bed and then went to work this morning.

Katie: I’m pretty sure it was yesterday during the day or the day before they announced it.

Taylor: Well, I haven’t really been on the Internet.

Katie: Fair. Yeah. No, they totally confirmed they’re going to have a live action Miles Morales movie, but it’s done by Sony. 

Taylor: I mean. Okay, That’s not unexpected, though. 

Katie: No, but I’m just saying TBD, how that rolls. But if you take it from what I’ve seen, I think that means that they’re confirming by the end of the third movie, Miles will have jumped into a live action format.

Taylor: I would just like to say that I will be rolling back up my previous fan casting for Miles Morales because it is time. I’m so excited. I think those are both really, really good predictions.

Katie: Did I give a second prediction?

Taylor: Yeah. You said Miles is coming into live action.Katie: 

Yeah, but that was kind of the first one. I was just announcing that because I-

Taylor: Oh then go for your second one. I just I agree with both of those points.

Katie: I don’t really know what my second one is. I do think, if anything, I think because this is such a successful franchise and it’s I mean, and it’s only two out of three, but like they’ve both been so impactful, I actually wouldn’t be too shocked if we saw some offsprings of it and we got an adventure into some more of the different Spider People and Spider Things. So that’s kind of I don’t know if really a prediction or if that’s more of just like a long term thought process. But I’m thinking that, you know, this was just too successful for Sony, I think, to walk away, especially considering some of their other projects that they should walk away from. So I think, you know, we’re going to see some other similar like storylines come along further down the road to follow different Spider People.

Taylor: Interesting. I like it. I like it. That actually reminded me of one other thing I wanted to point out. Didn’t they specifically point out Kraven The Hunter in this film?

Katie: Yes. I didn’t want to get into that because that could take a while. But yeah, there were a lot of references.

Taylor: Yeah, well, I wanted to point out, and this is the last thing I’ll say before I get into my predictions. I did want to point out Kraven specifically considering, and I just want to bring this to everyone’s attention because I know Kate and I forgot about it, but the Kraven the Hunter solo film is coming out this October.

Katie: Yeah, forget about this October. I literally was like, what are you talking about? I didn’t even know it was filming.

Taylor: I know, same.

Katie: And I’m an Aaron Taylor-Johnson girl, but like I did not know that was happening.

Taylor: So anyway, so you know, if I didn’t get my years mixed up, that’s coming out this October. So I thought it was interesting that they called him out specifically because it’s almost feels like a little baby Easter egg, you know, for their next kind of live action. But anyway, diving into my predictions, I too think we’re going to see that transition of Miles from animation to live action. I’m excited to see them pull that off. I was actually really impressed in the film of their mix of mediums. Like obviously we’ve seen them use the different types of animation before and that’s been really cool, but I wasn’t sure how it was going to look with, you know, live action. And they had Tobey in there too. But like Tobey and Andrew look good, and I think they were able to do that. Even having Donald Glover in there, it wasn’t jarring. And I was really concerned that it was going to be really, really jarring and it wasn’t. And so that makes me really, really excited to see how ever they pull off this transition from Miles in his current medium of animation and his style of animation into live action. So that’s my first prediction. I think that’s pretty not groundbreaking by any means. And my second one is kind of going off of your whole idea of like spinoffs of the franchise. I would love to see more team ups between the Spider People as well, so that we can see like those in action, whether that’s in live action or an animation. I think that would be cool. So maybe to your point, like setting up another franchise there, maybe relating to those people who hunt Spider People and I’m totally am blanking other name, but we talked them in the prediction episode like maybe it’s they’re the next Big Bad and that’s the next trilogy. As Miles moves on to have his own live action franchise, maybe we continue in animation and set up a trilogy where now the Spider People are being hunted not by Multiversal rules, but by an actual group of people who are really after them. So maybe that’s it. I don’t know enough to go any further, but that’s just my quick rapid fire. Two predictions coming out of across the Spider-Verse.

Katie: Yeah, I just think the potential of this film and what it’s setting up, the potential for the third one to have as well is just it’s so exciting. And obviously, you know, as MCU fans, I think there’s been some ups and downs throughout the past few phases, but like to see a film like this, you just get so excited it’s it’s just so fun to have everybody want to talk about it and, you know, just just be able to come out of this and know something so much bigger and cooler is coming right after it to finish it out is is awesome.

Taylor: Yeah. And I this is my last parting thought that I’ll say on this episode. But I think to your point, it’s been tough in the last few phases in the MCU because even, you know, people want to say what they want to say about the quality. That’s fine. I think even the ones that are really high quality and I’m talking strictly film here, leaving the shows alone, they’ve been darker. You know, I think the last couple of films that I’ve really enjoyed that are really top for me have been Black Panther and Guardians. Well, there was a lot of pain and a lot of hurt and a lot of tears in both of them. And that doesn’t mean they weren’t great movies, but they were not the kind of movie that you can just sit down and watch just because you’re feeling good, like cinematically beautiful, emotionally damaging. So it was kind of nice. And like, even though this had darker elements, I think it was still more fun than it has been in a hot minute to go see an MCU film just because of the tone that has been taken lately. But anyway, this has been a wrap on our Spider-Man across the Spider-Verse predictions. If you didn’t get it by our reactions and the way we’ve been talking about this film, we love, love, love, love, love, love, loved it. And I think I can speak for both of us when I say that we’re really, really excited for Beyond the Spider-Verse and Miles and his trajectory as he hopefully joins us in the MCU in the future. If you are looking forward to our coverage of future MCU and MCU adjacent projects and you haven’t already subscribed, you can do so on your podcast platform of choice. Please also remember to check out our website and blog. We have lots of extra goodies on there for you and you can also support the show on our home page of the blog by clicking on any of the affiliate links and purchasing from those where we get a portion of the proceeds, which helps us make the show even better.

Katie: Go ahead and give us a follow on Twitter at SisAssembledPod and Instagram SistersAssembled as well. Anything you need to know there will or anything you need to know in general about the podcast will be there. So just give us a follow and keep up with us as always and join us next week where we go back to the Guardians of the Galaxy franchise, where we will be talking about all the callbacks and Easter eggs that was in Volume three to finish out that franchise for the time being, since we don’t know the next time we’re getting our new Guardians team up. And as always, make sure you’re keeping up with everything that Marvel has coming up with Secret Invasion hot on our toes. So get ready because Marvel just blew your mind, so let’s talk about it.