Transcript

Taylor: So listeners, this is our Secret Invasion episode one recording, and we’re going to start on a bit of a somber note because there is only one image in my mind right now. I finished literally 10 minutes ago, and the only thing I can think of is the vision of Maria Hill bleeding out on the sidewalk. That is Cap shield, blood level trauma. That is the first thing I needed to say about this episode because it is the most important part of this episode.

Katie: Correct. Yes. I get the pleasure of watching it about 6 hours sooner than Taylor, just because I tend to watch it over my lunch break because I get an hour and I’m like, perfect. My Marvel lunch show times are back and it’s so exciting. And if any of you follow me on Twitter, you will know. I sat there and I tweeted, ‘How am I supposed to go back to work after this? There’s been a death in the family.’ Like, what? This show did not come to play, let’s just say that.

Taylor: I mean, you started off in the first 10 minutes with the death of what we thought was Ross, right? So immediately you’re like, excuse me? Well, first of all, he like, fell off the building. I was like, there’s no freakin way he’s alive after that. 

Katie: Yeah, he also got hit by a whole car.

Taylor: Yeah, I was so confused. It was just like there was so much happening. And then he was revealed to be a Skrull, which, okay, so I kind of was like, something bad is happening because when you were looking at the credits of the show like he was not listed right, it was like Samuel L. Jackson Colbie was listed. But Olivia Colman, Emilia Clarke, and there was no Martin Freeman. So I was like, alright, he may not actually be as big a part in this show as we think, because realistically he was just revealed as a Skrull in the first 10 minutes. Which means if we’re going off of our prediction from our predictions episode, then he’s potentially in stasis being housed somewhere. And now we kind of know how that works because they’re being their minds are being harvested, which we actually that was a nice callback to Captain Marvel where we got to see that tech that was being used on Carol Danvers make a reappearance in their little lair, I guess you would call it.

Katie: Yeah, I think there are layers. There are so many layers. And while we remain talking broadly before we get into some of these specific topics, I have to just say I just don’t know, but in a good way. This show decided it wasn’t going to pull any punches and I already appreciate that. I think we’ve had shows start off very slowly before. I actually think 90% of them have. And this show said you don’t need to know who Fury is. You know who Fury is you don’t need to be reintroduced to Hill. You don’t need to be reintroduced to Talos. You know the players, so we’re going to get right into this. And you know what this is about, so we don’t have to explain that either. And I, one greatly appreciate it. And two, I’m enjoying going back to some of these characters who we haven’t seen in a while, who have played semi-background roles sort of there really haven’t been headliners themselves. They’ve always just been appearing within other works and I’m appreciating that we’re back to them and the story is focusing on them without the Avengers. I know we talked about that in the predictions and you know, without heroes in general. And I’m telling you, this show already is playing with your mind and I’m loving it. I mean, this is how you pretty much cold open the show.

Taylor: Yeah. I mean, I really enjoyed diving into those characters, too, until Maria didn’t make it out. And then I was like, actually, we kind of left Maria in the background and I would have been fine. 

Katie: I honestly just kept waiting for her to turn green.

Taylor: Same! I was like, oh, Fury picked it up like, she’s the reason that, like they knew they had, like she was a mole, like all this stuff. And then she didn’t turn green and my first thought was, oh my God, did Fury just kill her because he’s so unsure of himself? Because I think and we’ll talk about this in a minute, I’m sure. But that’s a major theme, I think, around him right now is he’s not the Fury we’re used to. The snap changed him. He’s not you know, I have eyes everywhere Fury. And so like, I was thinking, oh, my God, what is a better way to prove that point than to have him kill one of the few people he trusts on Earth because he is so not himself and not on top of this situation. And then it turns out that it was actually Gravik and I was like, oh my God, she like, that is just I can’t. I can’t. That image of her lying there is just like, stuck. It’s stuck.

Katie: Well, and so first the show already very is very reminiscent of the Falcon and Winter Soldier. 

Taylor: Very much, yeah.

Katie: We are right on that road a post-Blip trying to of like you know in Falcon and Winter Soldier is more of a group that kind of was trying to do things due to the Blip, versus in this one the Skrulls you know it’s not really about the Blip with them more so than it is about the Blip with Fury, as you said, he doesn’t trust anyone. I mean, how can you when the people around you literally are turning into green aliens every 5 seconds? But he was just up in space for how long? And they’ve even said ever since he came back, he wasn’t right. We saw the flashback of him getting dusted like it clearly impacted him on a different level. And maybe it’s just because heroes are expected to kind of get up and keep moving and Fury, not saying he’s not a hero, but he’s not exactly in that same bracket as you know, Sam, or people like even Bucky, who’s just always been expected to keep moving, get up, fight the next fight. So I think we’re seeing a really like a real person perspective for the first time of what that’s like maybe a little bit we saw Yelena, but even then when she came back, it was I got to find my sister. You know, I got to make sure she’s okay. Like, I don’t feel like we really saw some of that real-person perspective. Exception maybe, Monica I’ll say that. Otherwise, you know, the heroes came back. They came back into a battle and then they said sayonara to one another. And half of them went to go battle more people and half of them retired or died. You know, to put it quite blantantly.

Taylor: Endgame in a nutshell. 

Katie: Yeah. Yeah. There you go. If you need a summary of Endgame, I just gave you one, but I think this is a great perspective of showing, you know, Fury the director of SHIELD. I mean, the guy himself who built the Avengers. And there’s a really funny line in this show about his midlife crisis being the Avengers. 

Taylor: I died. I cackled so loudly. It was aggressive.

Katie: It was so good. I went back and watched it again because I wanted to make sure I heard it right because I wanted to laugh and give it value. But I just didn’t know if I heard it the way I did. And it was like I did. I did it. It was good. But I mean, it’s seeing the guy we all saw as this stoic person not being able to handle what happened. And so it’s taking that really interesting perspective and now it’s wrapping it up into this Skrull invasion and now wrapping that into Maria’s death. I mean, that was insanity. And I don’t even know and there’s been a lot of talk online already. That’s the only thing I get when I get to watch it earlier, is I do get to go online and interact with a lot of people and see what y’all are out there saying. I will say people are like, were her last words because she still thought it was Nick who had shot her or was she saying ‘it was you’ as in he looked like he like he took on you? He looked like you. And I’m like, God, I swear she better be saying is because you look like him and not because she died thinking Nick shot her because I can’t handle that. 

Taylor: Okay, I honestly didn’t even really, I don’t think I even heard her last words. I think I like, I think I blacked out. I truly just was like I think I was just in so much shock. And I was kind of prepared like like Katie said, she gets to watch it a few hours before I do. So I got a text, you know, hey, like the last few minutes. And I was like, okay, so as the bombs were going off, I was like, oh, man and then she is shot. And I was like, alright, this has to be or she is talking about. And then I just I don’t know if I like my ears shut off because I was like, oh my God, or what? But like those last words being ‘it was you’. I mean, that’s awful. I think too, like, the other interpretation could be like, not to be, I don’t I don’t think she would say it like this, but she was tough on him in the show. Like, is it like this is all your fault? Like, realistically, on a grander scale, beyond her death, this is his fault. Do I think that’s what she meant? No. Like, that’s not where I would put my money, because I think that’s just cruel, You know you’re dying why would you give that to the person you respect to have that on their conscience? Like, that’s just it’s cruel. There’s no other word for it. But I think, you know, we’re going to not know probably what she means because she’s dead, so we’re never going to get a concrete answer. So I think you kind of have to put all of the potential interpretations out there. And unfortunately for Nick Fury, I think that’s one of them and that’s very well may be the way he takes it.

Katie: You know, I didn’t think about that and I haven’t, and as I’ve said, other people haven’t, but I haven’t yet seen that take online. And I really like that because I do think there is a truth to that. And I think you have to and you could almost marry two of those theories together that she was shot by Nick, whether she knew it was him or not. Say she didn’t, I mean, those would be cruel words to leave it with. If she thought he had shot her? I mean, who’s to say that’s not she didn’t mean to say it that way. She meant to say it in a cruel way because she assumed he just shot her because she’s probably thinking he doesn’t trust me. He thought I was a Skrull. You know, he came after me. And, you know, to your point, yeah, it is in the long run, him. Talos, Captain Marvel, it’s all their fault.

Taylor: Yeah. For not acting. I mean, and some of it I get, you know, Nick was obviously dusted, so there wasn’t much he could do in those five years. I don’t want to get on the Captain Marvel hate train because I don’t think that’s fair. But she was alive for those five years, just going to point that out, you know, obviously doing other stuff. So I think that time in between, you know, was- it’s hard to hold him accountable for that. But I think one of the major themes of this has been his abandonment of them when he came back. I think it’s less about those five years and more about his just like complete disregard of them when he came back, his hiding up on SABER the way that everybody keeps mentioning, like, why is he back on Earth? What brought you back to Earth? Like you said, you would never come back. His mention of a crisis of faith. Like I think all of those things made the Skrulls who are now the rebels, lose their faith in him because he did not- only was he not delivering for those 30 years, they clearly he had a relationship with Talos like they’re BFFs now. So he had conversations with them or had contact with the Skrull people and maybe that was what kind of kept them feeling like he was on their side. But I think it’s a mix of him being gone for those five years, which I don’t think they fault him for, but then his complete disregard for them when he came back, that really set this ball in motion that regardless of whether to your point, Maria thought that he shot her or not and it was the real him. All of this leads to her death. All of those choices directly lead to that image of Maria Hill bleeding out in that square.

Katie: So I agree with you. I do want to add a little caveat. It’s not just the five years, it’s since Captain Marvel. So that’s what, the eighties? Nineties? So it’s not just those years he was gone from the Blip or from the Snap and then came back from the Blip or even the years after. I mean, I think we’re under the assumption this is at least two years after they came back from the Blip, that’s the assumption. It’s still like 15, 20, 25 years that took place before that where he made a promise and he did nothing to keep that. And now, granted, from our perspective, we are seeing it from he was dealing with Hydra, he was dealing with, you know, all these other threats, the Battle of New York, building the Avengers to try and, you know, curb stuff like this. But he wasn’t actively helping the Skrulls no different than Captain Marvel was.

Taylor: Right. I do just want to point out, though, at least this is my interpretation. It sounded like the crisis of faith on the Skrull’s part didn’t happen until his abandonment after. I think he was and this kind of goes back to what I was saying about his relationship with Talos being kind of like buddy buddy. It sounds like he was still in contact with, I guess the Skrull Council because that’s what Gravik is on, and I’m assuming so is Talos. So it sounds like he was still you know, there was enough faith there to feel like he was- they felt like he was working towards it. And it wasn’t until he just completely cut off from them that really set this ball in motion because it did sound like at one point like Gravik actually really respected him. And that Gravik was the one who took his kind of cold shoulder the hardest, and that’s why he is the one leading the revolution because he’s so disappointed in this man that he respected and truly believed was doing what he could for their people. And now he’s like, you know what, buddy? You’ve ruined it. And now I’m going to take your planet, which is kind of what we talked about at the beginning or sorry in the predictions, but I think now there’s a little bit more information about what that turning point was and it really was Fury’s behavior after the Blip.

Katie: Yeah, that’s fair. I can accept that. I want to pivot a little bit. We had to talk about the end. Obviously, that was not how I anticipated the first episode to end. I’m not sure I anticipated any of the episodes to end this way, but I want to start ago and start at the beginning. We mentioned it a little bit. I don’t need to go into Ross being a Skrull as far as the show, but I need to understand the possibility of how long this man might have been a Skrull.

Taylor: Oh my God, I didn’t even think about that.

Katie: Yeah, that is where I’m a little bit more concerned because we last saw him, for those of you who don’t remember, in Wakanda Forever, he obviously went against some of the laws in place and was helping Wakanda. And then at the very end, after he was being arrested and detained, Okoye breaks him out. We don’t actively know where she takes him. If she actually takes him anywhere or just breaks him out and is kind of just like ‘go’.

Taylor: Which is kind of a very Okoye move. So that is very much possible. 

Katie: Exactly. So that’s why, you know, we don’t actively know where he was after that, but that leads us to question. We haven’t seen him since that moment. When was he taken over by a Skrull? Was he a Skrull in that movie? Was he a Skrull before that? Do we have to start asking some of these really serious questions and this is where this I almost said film, this is where the show is going to really do some mind games with us because the people who are exposed as Skrulls, we have to start almost retconning it in our own brain and being like, have they been a scroll since X, y, z?

Taylor: Yeah, you’re right and I didn’t even think about that. I will say if I have to put a line in the sand here with Ross and that’s what this show is for, right? Putting out the prediction or the theory, I think he was himself in Wakanda Forever. And here’s why. Strategically, as a CIA operative, he was more valuable to the Skrulls than he is as an off-the-book, whatever he was doing in here. So you know, to me, he doesn’t have the same level of emotional connection to the Wakandans that would require that kind of sacrifice. Like, I understand that the Skrulls take their memories and everything, but that doesn’t mean they take their emotion or their shared history. Right. And there was a definite sense and, you know, I might be proven wrong, but to me, to make that kind of career-level sacrifice, it doesn’t make sense unless there really is that shared emotion, those shared memories and that true love. Like he loves the Wakandans and he feels for them. And I think that’s why he made that choice, not because it was necessarily strategically expedient for a Skrull because, to me, I’d much rather have access to the CIA than whatever he’s doing kind of as a rogue agent, it just, the ROI isn’t there I guess if you’re a Skrull, in my opinion.

Katie: So I don’t necessarily disagree with that statement. I do see it from that perspective very clearly. I am going to play devil’s advocate for a second. Wakanda Forever is about a lot of different nations trying to get Wakanda’s resources. So in the long run, would the Skrulls not just as much probably want those resources. And you know, Ross would be a really easy way for them to get in. They’re not going to be able I don’t see the Wakandans falling for one of their own being a Skrull, at least not people like Okoye. She’s too smart for that. But I wouldn’t be shocked if somebody like Ross slipped by them.

Taylor: Because he’s on the periphery.

Katie: Yes, he’s not their main focus, especially in Wakanda Forever he is not their focus at all. He’s there. He’s helping where he can. He puts himself on the line, yes. So that’s why I don’t disagree with how you’re looking at it from that emotional standpoint. But I will say, getting yourself a man who’s on the inside with the Wakandans is a pretty good chess move if you ask me.

Taylor: That’s true. I didn’t think about which I don’t know how, because their whole story, it’s like their whole culture, right, is woven with vibranium. So is so much of their story. I mean, I’m not going to take you guys through it. You’ve already seen the movies, but the first one is obviously very important. The second one, I mean, it’s literally the impetus of the whole movie. So, yeah, I mean, from a resource standpoint, I guess I will take back my ROI statement. I do still hold on to the emotional stake, though.

Katie: Fair.

Taylor: But you know, I think it really could go either way and honestly, I don’t know when we’re going to get the answer. Like we’re obviously going to get an answer. I don’t think he’s dead because Valentina’s in the show. So at some point, Valentina’s going to be involved. And not to necessarily say that you can’t have Valentina without Ross. I think you’ve seen Valentina without him plenty of times. In fact, that’s why it was so shocking that they were at one point married. But it almost makes me think that, like, he is going to like we’re going to see the CIA again. So knowing that I kind of feel like we’re going to get that answer maybe at the end of the show like he is going to wake up from his stasis or whatever, and then he’ll be able to say like, oh, no, I was like, taken I like this place and like, this is how long I’ve been here, apparently, like, and whatever. I don’t know, like this is crazy. This is kind of a mind game.

Katie: It is. And the show’s proven two things within the first episode. And I mean, for what we’re talking about, I mean, we’re 20 minutes into this episode and we primarily talked about only two scenes because this is what it’s proven. It’s not afraid to kill people and it’s not afraid to make somebody a Skrull. And so we’re just going to have to sit here and we’re going to lose our minds for a little bit. And it’s not even this show. It’s going to be further than that. It’s going to have lasting effects. And, you know, we said in the predictions episode, this isn’t to say the show is going to be it for Secret Invasion. So, you know, who knows how long this is going to go on? And this was just the first episode.

Taylor: I mean, let’s not forget I know it wasn’t long term, but Nick freaking Fury was a Skrull.

Katie: Yeah, but at least he was a good one.

Taylor: No, in this show, he was the Skrull who killed Maria Hill.

Katie: Yeah. Yes. Okay. Yes. I’m thinking, like, when Talos was him, I was like, yeah, but at least he was played by a good Skrull. But yes, correct. Well, that’s what I mean, the damage that can be caused is beyond repair. 

Taylor: Yeah, I mean, I think to your point, like this show has shown that no one is safe, whether that’s from being body snatched or from death. And as morbid, as this is going to sound like that’s actually more exciting because I think, you know when you’re watching a show and you’re like, oh, this show is called She-Hulk. She’s not going to die like, clearly, like that’s the case. And like, not that I’m advocating that she dies or anything, but like, you kind of have an idea that, like there’s a certain level of like ceiling to the stakes, right. For this show, I think that you’ve seen that there’s not a ceiling. I think one of the things that I really want to dive into and I’ll say my prediction first and then we’ll dive into this whole theme of the show. One of the things that I think the show has shown is that Nick is not the same. Nick is not as infallible as he was and granted he was never truly infallible. I mean, hello Hydra within his own organization. But, you know, I think he was able to handle it right. He used his smarts and he handled it. And what I think we’re seeing now is a much diminished, much less confident Nick Fury. And that makes me wonder if he is on the chopping block for this show at some point, like, are we going to see the end of Nick Fury? It’s entirely possible because if you think about it, looking at these Avengers-level threats, he has become less and less prominent over the years. Obviously, he brought them all together in Avengers. He showed up to save the day at the end of Age of Ultron. But where was he in Infinity War? And not to say like, Nick, what were you doing? But realistically he was not involved, you know, up until the end credits scene at the very end where we saw him dusted. So he has become a less prominent figure over the years, occasionally helping the odd superhero in their solo mission, but on the grander scale, he’s not involved. And so I’m wondering, with his diminished character in terms of screen time and things like that, coupled with now we’re seeing a much weaker, a much less confident Nick Fury. If this decline is leading us towards his death because as we’ve seen with Maria Hill, who is an OG, they’re not safe.

Katie: I don’t disagree with that. I think I mean, just your last statement alone, they’re not safe. I do think Marvel, though, there’s a part of them that I think, you know, Nick Fury is Nick Fury. And I think we’re finally getting a character development for him that we never got. 

Taylor: That’s true. 

Katie: And this kind of goes back to even what I was saying at the beginning of the show. These are characters that, you know, not diminishing the things they’ve done, but they’ve essentially been background characters, they’re supporting characters. They’ve never sat here and been the leading person in anything. And so we’re seeing for the first time, Nick, especially having that ability to lead his own journey. And so I think, you know, part of this is just the character development they’re going to give him to put him back on the board after this. I would not be shocked to see Nick create the next Avengers team. He knows who’s out there, he’s aware. And I mean, quite frankly, I know we’ve thrown around some other people who might form them, who might lead them, but quite frankly, I mean, the biggest names have interacted with Nick Fury, most of them. I mean, Peter doesn’t know the Nick Fury he interacted with wasn’t real.

Taylor: Also, nobody knows who Peter is. 

Katie: Yeah, but Nick wasn’t on Earth when that happened, so theoretically he does.

Taylor: Yeah, but I think it’s the whole universe.

Katie: I don’t want to go in that. That can be a debate topic later for a different episode. But either way, there are a lot of heroes that have still interacted with Fury or by one or two degrees are attached to him. I mean, even he’s going to be in The Marvels. Well, there are three heroes right there. Carol’s obviously a little different, she’s known him, but there are three heroes right there. So I just see this setting him up to do what he does best and that’s pull these heroes together and create something that’s ready to fight this next big whatever we’re getting, which we know it’s Kang to a degree. You know, obviously, it’s been delayed. It’s been pushed back. So we don’t know how that’s going to work. But I see them pushing him to once again create this team and get everybody ready. 

Taylor: Yeah, I think that’s a very valid possibility. I just I’m very stuck on this whole decline, you know, theme because I think that’s one of the important things I’ve taken out of this show. I don’t think there’s been a single character who knew Fury for a long time, who didn’t make it a point to say it right? We heard Maria say it to him. We heard Sonya say it to him. We heard Talos say it to him. And so, you know, I think that there’s just this theme going on that he is not the same guy he used to be. And now maybe his hero’s journey in this show is that he proves to himself that he’s still got it because I think his crisis of faith wasn’t a crisis of faith in the Avengers that he created at all. I mean, granted, I’m sure he was less than thrilled that they, like, demolished the airport in Germany by attacking each other. He was probably pretty annoyed about that, let’s be honest. But I don’t think it was a crisis in faith in his creation. I think it was a crisis of faith in himself that he didn’t see this coming, that he didn’t put the pieces together when he was involved with at least two of the Infinity Stones in Avengers alone.

Katie: Yeah, well, actually, not to interrupt, but quite frankly, it’s his fault Loki showed up.

Taylor: Yeah, I mean, yeah, that’s true.

Katie: Because it’s a doorway. They even said it. I mean, if they weren’t tampering with it, didn’t Cap say it he was like, ‘What were you doing with it, to begin with?’ That’s why at the beginning, Cap didn’t trust Fury at all because he was like, ‘Why were you trying to play with it and make weapons with it?’

Taylor: Yeah, I mean, you’re right. And in so doing, brought a second Infinity stone. Put the eyes of Thanos on Earth. I mean, granted, it was here already, obviously, we know it was here in the forties but I think using it made it easier for Thanos to find. Right because it had been laying theoretically laying dormant since Howard found it as far as we know. And so, you know, you’re right that kind of did set that in motion but I think even more than that, I don’t necessarily know that Fury’s thinking, like, oh, man, I shouldn’t have done that. Like, now that brought Thanos here. No, you know, because of what’s happening now with the Skrulls, maybe he’s reexamining all of the decisions he made. But I think realistically, it’s that idea that this man who prided himself in having eyes everywhere and knowing everything, didn’t see the biggest thing coming. In fact, the thing that annihilated half of the universe. And not only did he not handle it, but his Avengers didn’t handle it. And so I think that shook him to the core, more so than Hydra, more so than anything. And I think that’s what we’re going to see hopefully in this show. If he doesn’t die, I think his arc is going to be he’s going to fight this battle because he feels like he’s the only one who can. And in overcoming this battle, or at least this part of the invasion, if we do go with the theory that, you know, there’s going to be a part two somewhere on that grander scale, if he’s able to maybe stave it off or whatever, you know, I think that’s going to be his kind of climb back to the top, back to the Nick Fury we know. Mr. Infallible, Mr. Stoic, Mr. Whatever. But I think in the meantime, not only has he lost his confidence, but he’s lost his right hand. And so right now we’re seeing him at his lowest point and if your theory from the predictions episode that Talos is also going to die comes true, he will truly be alone. And so I think that could even be one more step to a further descent before we see him again, like follow on that hero’s journey and really overcome the battle and then ultimately win.

Katie: Yeah, I agree with everything you’re saying. I’m on the same page. I think, you know, Fury’s got a journey coming to him. I don’t I still I’m adamant I don’t think he’s going to die, but I do think he has quite the hill to-

Taylor: Oh, my God.

Katie: Mm I don’t want to say that. I don’t know why I do it. I don’t know. It just happens!

Taylor: You never even like I’ve never heard you use that turn of phrase in the 20 something years that I’ve known you since you came out of the womb. 

Katie: I don’t know. It just, it happens so naturally. It’s just the puns in me just, like, fall out and they’re not always at the best of times.

Taylor: No, that one was downright hurtful. You wanna talk about cruel? That was cruel. 

Katie: I know. I’m sorry. I didn’t even know. I like. It came out of my mouth and then I thought about it and I was like, oh, okay, restarting from that. I won’t say it that way. I think he has quite a trench to dig himself out of and, you know, you said he just lost Maria, but I think that might be something that motivates him. I think, quite frankly, he doesn’t have a motivation when you get shoved down- I mean, think about Thor. I think this is a great example. He got beaten in every single way and maybe it wasn’t all at the hands of Thanos, but a lot of it was I mean, in the long run, a lot of the stuff that happened happened because of Loki, who initially was all happening because of Thanos. And then, you know, he killed his brother and he, you know, killed half the universe and his people. And then, you know, the list goes on. But, you know, he just kept getting kicked and kicked and kicked and eventually, you know what more like you get to a point where you pass out, right? Like, you can’t take anymore. And I almost wonder if that’s what happened to Fury. When he finally got to the point where he was dusted and, you know, he spent the five years doing whatever they were doing in the Soul world, and he came back, I think he took that as a big defeat in himself. And I don’t think he has a drive to fight. I mean, he’s here, but I don’t think he’s he’s driven by anything. Quite frankly, I don’t think he sits there and he’s like, yeah, I don’t really feel like I have a personal stake in this if I’m being honest. He does, but I don’t think he feels that way. Yeah, okay let Earth crash and burn. He doesn’t care. He’s up on SABER like he’s doing what he’s doing up there because he thinks everything is going to be space oriented. And I don’t disagree, but I think losing Maria is going to be what drives him to want revenge and to go after these Skrulls with a lot more intensity than we even saw him coming back for.

Taylor: I agree to you to an extent. I think that, yes, I do agree that he is kind of he’s not as intense about it as I think he should be. I do think he cares, though. I think he cares about Earth because he came. I think if he truly did not care and he just was like, you know what? I’m not living there anyway. He wouldn’t even be here. But I think to your point, the intensity is not there. I think it’s because he’s going through the motions. Yeah.

Katie: Yeah. Okay, that’s fair.

Taylor: Yeah.Like, I think he thinks he’s doing the right thing. I think he thinks he’s taking all the right steps, but he’s not really as invested as he should be. He’s not as driven as he should be. He’s not pushing as hard as he should be. And I think to your point, I like the idea of Maria’s death being a wake up call, because that’s what’s going to snap him out of this idea that I’m just I’m doing the right thing, I’m here, I’m employing all of my contacts, I’m doing all of my spy shenanigans. Now he’s like, oh, no, no, you killed my right hand. I’m going to make you pay for this and it’s going to bring back the old Fury who absolutely was vicious. I mean, he was like nuts, but like, in a really good way. And I’m glad he’s on our side. But, like, I think we’re going to see that version of Fury snap back because Maria Hill bled out in that square in Moscow.

Katie: Yeah, I’m on board with that. I completely can get behind that because I think that’s what he needed. I think that was his driving factor. But I want to pivot. We’ve been talking about the good guys, even if they were Skrulls and I want to get into the Skrulls themselves. Specifically, I believe they’re pronouncing it G’iah. Oh my gosh. Or G’iah, it might be G’iah.

Taylor: We’re going to go with G’iah because that’s how I’m pretty sure I heard it throughout the film or the show.

Taylor: I know it’s ‘a’ I just don’t remember-

Taylor: Wow, that was so profound and helpful, Katelyn.

Katie: I know I really changed everyone’s lives with that one. So what, we’re saying G’iah (guy-yuh)? I think it is G’iah because I think in my brain, I said, guy yuh, that’s what I do to remember it every time they said it. Okay, I want to get to her. 

Taylor: Yeah.

Katie: Because I’m not okay, first off, Amelia Clark, love you in the MCU. You already have me loving your character, but I’m not sure whose side she’s on. 

Taylor: That was my biggest question coming out of the episode was she had to have known the bags were empty, right? 

Katie: Unless- 

Taylor: They emptied them. 

Katie: Yeah. Unless they knew that who she ran into was her father and they did not trust her. 

Taylor: Yeah. So you can read this two ways. Essentially. One, she played her dad and she knew that in putting him in that position, Gravik would get his face to face moment, right. And now he just killed Fury’s friend as Fury. So it really it hits him hard and in a lot of emotional ways and we just talked about, right? So I think there’s there’s that reading of it or to your point, it’s that Gravik knows that she may have had a change of heart and now he played her. So he double crossed her.

Katie: I don’t want to think that she’s because I want to believe she’s on that redemption, especially because I think it’s really hard. I mean, we found out her mother was killed. We found out her mother was killed by the revolutionary Skrulls. So I think it’s hard to fake that kind of reaction. She didn’t know and you could even tell because she was like, well, mom never knows what she wants. And he’s like, she didn’t like he corrected her and was like, she’s gone.

Taylor: Yeah, well, when she said that, I was like, why are they talking about her in two different tenses? And then it occurred to me like, oh my God, she left before- I guess I when Talos was talking to Fury, I kind of assumed that she left after her mother died. And so I don’t think I really understood that she wouldn’t have known and so when she said it in present tense, I was so confused and then I was like, oh, wow, like, that’s a gut punch.

Katie: Well, yeah. So, I mean, like, I’m sorry, the best of actors are actresses can’t fake that kind of thing in person to find out that real news, you know? So I truly believe that shook her. And I did say, you know, in the predictions, I thought it was going to be more her father’s death that was going to be imminent. But, you know, I’m not shocked. I mean, I didn’t even think about her mom not being alive. So, you know, that was just a puzzle piece that was missing and turned over under the couch. But I don’t think that that didn’t get to her but I also have to think, like when you are watching, they look suspicious of her. Even the Skrulls are sitting there, I can’t remember his name, but his Gravik’s right hand man, he’s the one who tells her to go get the bomb. And so there’s definitely, I think that suspicion which I think is fair. This is Talos’ daughter. This is the guy who’s actively fighting against you guys and also is the guy who didn’t get you a new home like he promised he would. 

Taylor: Yeah, like how how do they know that she’s not a plant of his?

Katie: Well, exactly. So she’s supposedly on their side, but is she? I’m sure they’re wondering the same thing. So I would have to think that she didn’t know, I mean, to be fair, she marked the bags like she said she was going to. And so I think she full heartedly believe the bombs were in those bags. But then again, the bags were empty and how do you not notice the backpack is empty?

Taylor: Well, that’s what I mean. So I think that is a mark not in her favor, but to be fair, it’s very possible they already dropped the bombs. You know, somewhere else. Like they, I guess I’m trying to say, is like Hill and Fury, in theory, did lose them at certain points right? So it’s possible they dropped the bomb out of the bag.

Katie: I just don’t think they did, though. I think those other bombs were planted. I mean, if anything, they had something in the bag to make it feel weighted and then lost that somewhere along the way, so when, you know, Fury and Talos and Hill apprehended them, it was empty. But otherwise, like that to me is a strong mark against her. I also I know we’ve seen scenes in the trailer where she’s talking to Fury and it doesn’t seem like she’s his biggest fan, which you know, no matter what way this goes, that’s still a valid point. But I mean, if she’s still on the side of the revolutionary Skrulls, I could see that being in conversation taking place a lot more than I could her being on his side. I don’t know, though.

Taylor: Yeah. I mean, if we’re going to go with the idea that her father does die, right, as part of this, like maybe she’s still on the fence and maybe as his death that really brings her over, maybe she does so kind of begrudgingly, right? Like she clearly feels ideologically that she’s a match for the revolutionaries, but maybe she feels that, like you were saying last episode, she kind of owes it to her dad to fight for the cause he believed in. And that means she to work with Fury. So in that sense, it’s more of a begrudging kind of collaboration. And I could see that type of tone relationship. Obviously, we don’t see a lot of the relationship or the conversation just enough to kind of get the vibe, but I could see that kind of vibe existing in a sense where she’s like, I’m only working with you to honor my dad and because you and my dad were BFFs for 30 years, which by the way, I would love like a buddy cop, like special presentation of the two of them over the years because they clearly stayed in contact and like, they’re super friendly and I just love it. But like, you know, so in a lot of senses to like, he was probably around as she was growing up, you know. So it’s it’s definitely an interesting dynamic. And I think there’s a lot there’s a lot to find out yet about her. And I really want to know, like because that’s cold. That is really cold to use your dad in that way and his trust and love that he has for you to then use him. I mean, that’s the kind of stuff that that breaks a relationship. I mean, permanently.

Katie: Especially part of the point was they wanted Fury there, they wanted Hill there and they wanted Talos there. Whether that was to be blown up possibly, I’m sure. But look what happened to Maria. They took the opportunity of chaos and they shot her. So I can’t think she was dumb to know that that was going to be part of the plan. They wanted them to be there. I mean, they pretty much explicitly said that to Fury. We want you at this place. We’re counting on you to be there. So I’m suspicious. I’m hoping that they were almost double crossing her at the same time because they knew she was double crossing them or I guess she wasn’t fully double crossing them. She sort of was, but she actively just gave information. I guess she wasn’t actively like, into weaving herself into screwing up the plan. But regardless, I mean, I don’t know. And it just it sits a little weirdly with me how they ended up being empty bags and everything else. I don’t know. I don’t know what to think. I do think, you know, her mom is a really good telling point unless she’s just cold. 

Taylor: Yeah, I mean, I guess that’s entirely possible. You know, like, I don’t know what it was like they don’t really go into it what that moment was that broke her from her parents, where she kind of joins Gravik’s group. If that was a seminal enough moment for her, maybe as much as she loved her mom, it’s kind of like, well, she’s dead, or maybe she just blames her father enough that she’s kind of masking the grief of her mother and any empathy she could feel towards her dad by basically being like, well, you didn’t protect her. You in this like passive mentality you have, this peaceful mentality. What does it do? What did it get you? It got you mom dead and kind of ignoring maybe because she feels guilt and doesn’t want to go there, ignoring the fact that it was actually her side who did the murdering, you know, like maybe she just can’t even process that yet. And so she kind of took that and the anger that she might actually, I’m totally psychoanalyzing her right now, but maybe she took that, you know, those feelings of anger and guilt that she was feeling towards herself and essentially put them on her father, making him more of the enemy, right. So that there are literally no lines she won’t cross in order to stop him because she can’t even process that she actually potentially played a role in her mother’s death.

Katie: Yeah and I think that’s just as fair. I think she’s interesting because obviously we’ve gotten one episode of her. People like Fury we can kind of pull from other things, but this is the first time we’ve really seen her that she wasn’t a child. And, you know, you’ve made some several good points where you pointed out like, we don’t know that what that moment was. We don’t know what that relationship turned into. We don’t know what her mom and how her mom was killed. So there’s a lot of components, I think, that make it hard to see, you know, did she double cross her dad or not? And I guess the only thing for me is that I guess gives her points is she thought that everything was going to be in those bags. Let’s just say that let’s go off the fact that she thought everything was in those bags and not that maybe she knew the bombs weren’t where they said they were. Regardless, her information didn’t really help Fury at all because they didn’t know where the bombs were at all. So all it did was pinpoint them on backpacks. Okay, yeah, they ran around chasing people. But what were they going to do otherwise? They did not know where the bombs were going to be. And it looked like they were in the buildings. They were somewhere planted in the building. They didn’t like know that information. So I guess I give her some points there, because maybe that’s to say she full heartedly thought that when she went and got the bomb from that guy, that she got the bomb from the guy and that was the bomb that one of them was going to go, you know, blow up later. So I don’t know. She’s a great character for me. I do want to talk about the mine fracking slightly, just for a second, because that freaked me out.

Taylor: Yeah, I guess it was weird to me because we mentioned how that apparatus is something that we saw in Captain Marvel, right in her movie. But I guess I didn’t really understand that they’re actually able to touch someone and take their memories. Like that’s a completely new ability that I didn’t really understand. Really quick before we go any further into this, when you were talking about how Fury was the target of really wanting him to be in that square for the bombs, what if that’s what Maria meant? It was you, meaning you were the one they wanted, like they wanted you here?

Katie: Well because they wanted to screw with his mind the whole point of that was to show him that he’s been watched or has been being watched this whole time and.

Taylor: And that he’s a step behind, right?

Katie: Yeah. 

Taylor: So I don’t know that that’s the right interpretation. But since we’re throwing out potential interpretations of Maria Hill’s last words ouch, there’s another one for you.

Katie: I can get behind that. 

Taylor: Yeah. Sorry, now back to mind fracking, but I had to get that out before the moment passed.

Katie: I like it. Yeah. So getting on to the mine fracking thing. Yes, we have not seen the Skrulls do that before. That’s not to say they haven’t had the ability. I do wonder if some of it is they can look at somebody and take on their appearance very easily. I mean they could look at me 500 feet away, I’d never even know and they take on my appearance. Versus obviously the mind fracking is very close quarters, you have to like physically touch the person and it’s not like instantaneous. You got to like give it some a little bit of time to like suck out their memories and so, I mean, there’s not really a better way to say that. So I wonder if we just haven’t seen it before because it’s a little bit more personal than just looking at somebody and stealing their identity. They also very clearly have gotten the system down. Did I not say that they are keeping the humans alive? I might not be right. Maybe those containers aren’t humans at the end of the day, but they’re very clearly keeping them alive. So that’s interesting. It’s weird, it’s uncomfortable, and it makes them ten times more of a threat, though. And that coupled on the fact that we are eventually in the series, likely going to be seeing Super Skrulls has me stressed more than I already am.

Taylor: Yeah, I mean, just think about what they could do with the knowledge of someone like a Nick Fury, right? All of his contacts, all of his historical knowledge, the things he knows about some of the most powerful beings on the planet, like, you know, and that’s just one man. There’s a lot there’s a lot there. It’s very concerning. I hope we see more of it only in the sense that I want to understand it better and like what the capabilities are like fully and also like what are the limitations, right? Like how far back can they go? Like, do they see a person’s entire life? Like everything that you or I remember? Is that taken from a Skrull or is it just the last three years? Like, I don’t know, we’re going to get that answer, but I hope we have the opportunity to learn a little bit more because I think it’s one of the more powerful and also useful abilities that we’ve seen in the MCU to literally just steal someone’s memories.

Katie: And too, I wonder, how do they hold that in their brain? And I know that’s like the dumb thing to think about, but I mean, they’re essentially overloading their brain with somebody’s possibly entire lifetime full of memories on top of continuing to be whatever person they are as a Skrull. So I’m also very intrigued by understanding how in their brain it’s like married to know which ones which when you’re here, I can be myself. I’m a Skrull, but when I’m doing this, I’m out in the field. I tap into this other register of memories that is somebody else’s to have. So I’m intrigued by that kind of like the the deeper brain idea behind it. It’s definitely weird. It’s definitely uncomfortable. Makes me fear them even more than it already did, because now they can- because I remember thinking like, well, I guess the nice thing about Skrulls is like because they’re only shapeshifting unless they lived in this body long enough, you know, they probably don’t have a super great idea of everything going on. You can trick them, you can ask like a question. It’d be like, how would you know? Like even Peter, I think with him and Happy when he was like, how do I know you’re real? And Happy was like, because when we were in Germany, you rented like an adult film. And he was like, okay, like, yes, yes. But like, just like that, like you could trick them. Those are memories that obviously only two of them would have, but now you can’t. And so that’s very that, that, that freaks me out.

Taylor: Yeah. It makes them that much more of a threat, right?

Katie: Yeah.

Taylor: But it also makes sense, right. Like how useful I guess is the shapeshifting if you can just get caught in a lie so easily, right. It’s having those memories that strengthens that literal ability to step into someone’s life and infiltrate that and that’s very concerning.

Katie: Oh, yeah I definitely don’t like it.

Taylor: You don’t wike it? 

Katie: I don’t wike it. No, I yeah, it’s definitely going to create more chaos and that’s why if this becomes an Avengers level thing, which technically it already is, but if this becomes an Avengers level film or something because I’m actually kind of going to manifest that there’s another Avengers film before Kang Dynasty, just because I think that would make more logical sense but-

Taylor: I agree. I think what is it now 26 and 27? That’s way too long. The last one is was in 2019. That’s seven years.

Katie: Well, and I’m sorry, but like, let me just make it make sense. Why did we have Avengers, Age of Ultron and then we had Infinity War and Endgame and then in phases four through six were going to be like, let’s skip Avengers and Age of Ultron and just going to go right to the two big battles like that doesn’t make sense to me.

Taylor: Yeah, and also side note, gives us a lot more time to introduce character arcs that we’ve talked about in past episodes, and I’m thrilled.

Katie: Oh, I know, I know. I know exactly what you’re talking about too. That’s what I mean. And so I don’t know, I just I would like to see this be an Avengers level threat post this show. This could be a really cool Avengers movie to bring them together. And I just I mean, come on. This is like to me, this is worse than Thanos. I’m not going to lie like, this is hitting you from the inside. 

Taylor: Yeah, I mean, look, we talked about this ad nauseum in the predictions episode. This show in scale is I know it’s only the first episode, but like, so much smaller, right? The fact that there’s not a single Avenger involved besides Rhodey. And we haven’t even really seen Rhodey more than the 2 minutes of screen time he had telling the president about Nick Fury. Like that is such a departure from the largeness, the grandness of this storyline in the comics. And so if this sets up the next Avengers film, I am all for it because this story specifically deserves an Avengers level movie.

Katie: And maybe that’s it. You know, we talked in the predictions episode about how multiple times they mentioned where are the Avengers, where are your super friends? And multiple times fear is like, I have to handle this on my own, but I wonder if it gets to point at the very end, the fifth or sixth episode when he’s like, I can’t. I need to call in the Avengers, I need a team, I need help. And that’s just like that lead in to set up that Fury’s going to be out here starting to collect his pieces for the team. Like, I think that’s my ideal way of this ending is it doesn’t get resolved. And I know to Taylor’s point, this is only episode one. I get it. But you know, we got to you got to think long term here and I don’t want to see it resolved. I want to see Fury be like, I screwed up. This is worse than I thought. I’ve tried to do what I can to fix this and I can’t. This is bad. And I will bet you it has to do with Super Skrulls. But beyond that, I think he’s going to have to acknowledge, especially with Maria gone now, I think he’s going to have to reach a point where he’s like, I can’t do this alone, but he’s going to try. And I think that’s what we’re going to see most of this series be about. And then I think that last episode is going to be that moment where he’s like I gotta call back up.

Taylor: Yeah. I mean, I think this goes back to what I was saying before about the hero’s journey, like to kind of evolve that theory. Maybe he doesn’t come out of it, right? Like, maybe this show is actually his continued descent into hitting rock bottom, right? Like he clearly doesn’t trust himself. Now, he lost Maria. Maybe he loses Talos, maybe he loses a few other people. Maybe he just continues to lose that self-confidence in his ability to handle the situation on his own to where he finally hits rock bottom. And Fury is like I had to call in the Calvary. I have to call in the Avengers because I am not able to handle this on my own. I think in some ways that’s its own level of growth for him, right? Like, you know, I think Fury asking for help is not always something he’s done. So, you know, maybe that’s what it is that he has to be completely stripped of everything friends, colleagues, allies, all of it, to be able to get to a place where he has to ask for help. And we’re now going to see the Avengers take on a Skrull Army or whatever you want to call it, that has now reached peak because now they’re engaging the one person they want to engage, right? Like what is going to give Gravik more satisfaction than going head to head against the man he’s most disappointed and most angry at. And now he’s beating him. So now he has more confidence. He’s going to be more aggressive, he’s going to advance timelines, all of it. And now we’re seeing the snowball effect of his potential rise to power, essentially.

Katie: Yeah, I’m on the same page and I’m in the same sentence sitting right next to you.

Taylor: Amazing. I’m excited. I mean, I know they’re not going to and this just came out a couple of days ago. They’re not going to have a presentation of Hall H this year, which is concerning. As she laughs maniacally. 

Katie: It’s either concerning because we should be worried about slates and things getting done, or it’s either concerning because Marvel’s got some crap up their sleeves and they’re about to screw with us. And instead of announcing how they’re going to screw with us, they’re just going to let it happen.

Taylor: Yeah, I think it’s the latter, realistically.

Katie: Yeah. Kevin Feige did his retreat.

Taylor: Yeah, that’s what I was just going to say they went up and they did their thing and they know. But I think, you know, I do think let’s not ignore the elephant in the room. I think the issues that have come up with Jonathan Majors have caused them to probably rethink a few things. I think that’s why we saw Kang Dynasty moved back. 

Katie: And now Namor.

Taylor: Yeah. And you know, unfortunately there have been allegations against the actor who plays Namor kind of the same deal in terms of how we’re handling it. Obviously, we want to support the victim, but we’re not going to make any judgments one way or the other until it’s fully litigated and all of those processes and due process and all of that have been completed. But, you know, there have definitely been some outside of Marvel’s control elements happening. So I think what we’re seeing this year is kind of a step back and looking at the slate more broadly and saying, all right, we’re going to have to make some adjustments to bring this back to a Secret Invasion, maybe they’re going to pop that in there. You know, like now that they have more time, now that they have the ability to kind of tell some of these stories potentially on a different timelines and things moving around. In terms of the slate, you never know. So I think there’s just a lot of things in flux. And I think this slate that we’ve all kind of been tracking towards essentially for the last year or so since pretty much last year’s Comic-Con, when they really seemed to affirmed it all up, that’s all, I mean, that’s all spaghetti essentially now. So, you know, I think there’s a lot more room to tell different stories that maybe we weren’t expecting to tell, and I’m excited about that. So I think as much as some of it is kind of set for some really disappointing reasons in terms of potential behavior by actors and all of that, I think it does give us the opportunity to maybe tell some different stories.

Katie: I agree. And actually, while we’re kind of on this topic is related, but not related, but I do want to hit it as the last thing we talk about, mainly because to me, I’ve been online all day. I have a very different perspective than I think a lot of people do. So, you know, we could talk it through. So Marvel use for the first time ever AI art to generate the opening credits personally, and maybe this is because I’m stupid. I didn’t know it was AI art until I logged on later into the social media realm. 

Taylor: I didn’t either. I actually if you guys are Mandalorian fans, I thought it reminded me a lot of the like sketches that they do of the scenes of The Mandalorian, which is interesting that it was AI, I didn’t know that. 

Katie: Yeah, well, I was like sitting here I’m in the doctor’s office waiting my 20 minutes after my allergy shots, and I’m like, oh, we’ll start the episode. And obviously that’s at the beginning. So I was like, wow, this is like really cool like, I like how they’re doing this like, this is awesome. And then I finish the episode over the rest of my lunch and I go online like one does, and everybody’s like, I can’t believe they did AI, they’re ripping off artists that could have been. And then you have the people who are like, yeah, I’m like, the whole point is like, what’s real? What isn’t? That’s kind of why they did it. And the people are like, stop defending Disney. They have all the money. And I literally was like, aghhhhh.

Taylor: Yeah, well, AI is definitely a lightning rod in terms of like creativity and ownership and all of that. I will say though, from a narrative standpoint, I do understand the idea of like what’s real, what’s not. But I also think it’s added an extra layer of interesting connection in that their greatest enemy, at least so far in the MCU, is the Kree. And the Kree is actually governed by an AI. That’s what the Supreme Intelligence is. So it gets even more meta if you look at it in that sense that the Skrulls the show all about the Skrulls has an intro that’s created by an A.I. when their greatest enemy is ruled by an A.I.. So I add that to it too.

Katie: That’s how I kind of was- I didn’t go into that depth, but I kind of was like, I see where it’s coming like I think that’s cool, and I thought it was well done. I obviously did know it was AI generated until I went online and that was what everybody was arguing about. And I was like, oh, okay, I don’t know what I wandered into, but I wanted to bring it up because I know that was a big topic of discussion of debate today. Well, I guess not today when the episode came out. Yeah. I mean, whatever your thoughts, you know, go on the Internet, everybody’s sharing them. I thought it was cool. I thought the the meta idea even what you just explained, Taylor I didn’t even think about that is kind of interesting. I get I do understand the other side of it being like, why didn’t you just pay artists to do this? There’s already enough problems with writers and everybody else. I do get that side as well. So I don’t know. Join the debate if you so wish or if you want your sanity don’t. But yeah, just wanted to bring that up because I know that was that took away unfortunately I think, a lot of attention from how good the first episode actually was was was this is what people really focused on. So I just figured we had to bring it up at least, at least touch on the topic.

Taylor: Yeah. And, well, I think with that being the last talking point for this episode, we are going to call it quits on episode one of Secret Invasion. I think it’s pretty clear by now that we are thoroughly enjoying the show. I don’t know about you, but I’m very much looking forward to next Wednesday when we get to watch episode two. Hopefully no one else dies because wow, Marvel thanks. But anyway, if you’re looking forward to the rest of our coverage of, all things Secret Invasion for the next few weeks, please make sure to subscribe or follow on your podcast platform of choice if you have not already, and check out our website where we’ll have corresponding blog post to each of the episodes as well. You can also check out our homepage if you’d like to support the show where we have affiliate links for some of the merch that we own. So definitely check it out if you would be so willing to support us.

Katie: Also give us a follow on Twitter at SisAssembledPod and Instagram at SistersAssembled, you can find all of our new episodes when they come out and also all our new blog posts when they come out on there, along with some additional just fun content. And as Taylor said, we’re doing all Secret Invasion for the next few weeks. So next week get ready. It’ll be all episode two because this is already such an awesome show and Marvel just blew your mind, so let’s talk about it.