Transcript

Taylor: Well, listeners, we are back for episode two of Secret Invasion, and I’ll say it wasn’t as jaw-dropping as it was last week, but there are definitely some gems that I think Katie and I are pretty excited to dive into. There were some emotional moments where I may or may not have yelled at Marvel for making me go through it. But fear not, we’re going to cover it all with you today. So, Katie, why don’t you start us off with your initial reactions to episode two?

Katie: I felt really similar. I felt it was a great episode. It didn’t quite throw me off like the first one did, but it was still really, really good. It still was leading the story. We still continue the plotlines and I think this episode I immediately knew was important because we had that flashback and as soon as anything starts with a flashback, you’re like, okay, here we go. And it wasn’t until I hit 19, yeah, I was going to say I thought I was in the wrong year, but that’s right. The 1900s you know, okay, as soon as it hit 1997, I was like, okay, now this is even more important because okay, cool. We got a little flashback to Captain Marvel. Yeah, we know the pish posh of everything that happened there. Cool. 1997. And this is not only important because it establishes the fact that Fury not only made the commitment he made to them, but he also used them as essentially weapons for him, as spies and everything else. But the most important part and this is honestly I think the most important part of this entire episode, in my opinion, was that it established his connection to Gravik in a way we didn’t know and this just got a whole lot more personal than we thought.

Taylor: Yeah, totally. And I think that is such a smart callback to episode one because Talos makes a comment that makes it feel like it’s more personal for Gravik. He says something about, I don’t remember the exact line, but something along the lines of like, yeah, you know, Gravik took your abandonment much harder than everyone else. And that makes sense then if you’re looking at it at the timeline of a child who’s going to look at Nick Fury as a father figure, who is then going to look at him and realize, oh, my gosh, this man that I idolize, this man that I tried to potentially be like in being one of his spies, we don’t see him volunteer, but I think it’s heavily implied. You know, I wanted to emulate him. And now here he is turning his back on me. Imagine that feeling that is so much worse than being an adult like Talos, who understands that maybe, you know, Nick’s going through his own stuff. Imagine being an adult who has idolized this man for 20, 25 years of your life, and now he’s turned his back on you. There is absolutely nothing in the world that you want more than to make that man hurt. And I’m pretty sure Gravik even says that in the episode.

Katie: Well, and to me, it wasn’t even just that. It was the fact that he lost his parents fighting the Kree, trying to defend their homeland. And so this cut so much deeper because of that. His parents fought for the cause of, you know, their Earth. Well, it’s not their Earth, but, you know, their planet, as you say, to us it’s an Earth because, you know, we live on the Earth. But for them, the planet they lived on, his parents died in that fight. And so to have a man who came in and was like, I’m going to help you and then spend maybe and maybe we’ll get more flashbacks, but spend, you know, the next 15, roughly 20 years using your people for his own disposal and needs and not really doing what he said and now we don’t know. We might get more confirmation and different flashbacks that he did, you know, more work in the back end. But I’m going to say he didn’t with how SHIELD started to really take off, I’m going to assume that he- especially once the Avengers came around. I’m going to assume it didn’t happen. And then he disappears after he comes back. I mean, and we’ll get to this conversation, but Talos even says that your boots were barely on the ground for 5 seconds before you went back up into space and you disappeared.

Taylor: Yeah, totally. Yeah. I think it’s just the idea of him using them and it being kind of a quid pro quo I thought was so interesting slash disappointing, but also very on-brand for Nick Fury. Because if you think about it, when has Nick Fury ever given anything for free? You know, I think at his core he thinks he’s doing good and I think overall all of Nick’s karma is in the positive direction. I think overall Nick Fury does good. But I think what sometimes happens with him and I think we’ve seen this over the course of his time in the films that even just being mentioned in the films, is that the way that he necessarily goes about doing good isn’t always righteous, I guess is like the wrong word, but like kind of in that vein, it’s like for him, the ends justify the means and there’s always a transaction, right? We’ve always seen that with Nick Fury. I mean, think about what happened with Natasha, even, you know, and how she was brought into SHIELD and what they made her do with that little girl like, you know? So a lot of it is the ends justify the means with Nick and he’s never really given anything for free. He wasn’t giving away free passes in the SHIELD to Natasha. She had to do something that traumatized her for the rest of her life in order to make that change. Well, now the Skrulls, if they want his help and Captain Marvel’s help, because he is essentially, you know, a door to her if they want their help, then they have to give him something in return. It’s disappointing because you want someone who’s held up as a hero to do better and act better. But at the same time, there’s nothing in Fury’s history that ever makes me think that he is better than that. So I don’t know really. It’s like a tough dichotomy because I don’t know why I feel that way, but I’m still disappointed.

Katie: No, I really was also disappointed. I even wrote in my notes, like so Fury was using these people like I that makes me feel dirty and I don’t like this is a fictional character, but it does like I’m like ew Nick, like, I know, you know, I just feel like something so terrible has been revealed about you. And to your point, he’s never been afraid to get his hands dirty. He’s never been afraid to, you know, kill when he needs to. And I mean, there are plenty of heroes out there that are the same way. We have a lot of anti-heroes for that reason. You know, they are heroes. They do the right thing, think of Deadpool. We all love him. But I mean-

Taylor: The dude’s body count. 

Katie: Yeah, I mean he’s a little unconventional in how he goes about doing things.

Taylor: He’s no Captain America, that’s for sure. 

Katie: Certainly not. But even then, Captain America’s got a body count.

Taylor: Yeah, I mean, you’re not wrong.

Katie: You know who doesn’t? But at least he tries to have a moral ground versus, you know, there are some that are a lot less caring of how it’s taken place, you know. And I think we’ll see that in the Thunderbolts, that’s for sure. I think we have a chance to see some heroes that are definitely going to push that button and push that line down a little bit more. But yeah, I will say that was disappointing and I think why I was most disappointed was because he didn’t give that impression of him being like that in 1995 when he met Captain Marvel. So I’m kind of intrigued in those two years, like what switched for him because he just seemed like this fun-loving little agent, you know, in Captain Marvel versus I feel like once we reach this, we’re like, okay, well, clearly he’s already got some skin in the game somewhere. And actually, a part of me was like, you know, at the time he was answering orders. Who was he answering to? Hydra or SHIELD? Not because he knew he was answering the Hydra, but was he possibly answering to someone who was a Hydra agent?

Taylor: I mean, that’s one way to look at it. My way to look at it is to think about how deeply buried the Skrull history is, right? Think about how deeply buried Carol’s history is to the point where Rhodey got a briefing on the Skrulls that was for eyes only. And so if the Skrulls are that deeply buried, it almost makes me think that, like, Fury was one of the few people in the agency who even knew about it, it’s probably him, Coulson, and maybe one or two other agents. That tells me he has already by having that secret and having that essentially secret army that reports only to him that he’s already built up clout and power and is essentially ascending already to the Director. He’s pushing people out of the way to that directorship. And I think maybe that’s the difference between 1995 and 1997 is in 1995, he was just your average agent, just taking orders, just trying to keep him and his partner alive. In 1997, you see a Nick Fury who realizes this thing that I found, I can use that to gain power and gain momentum and one day lead this thing. And maybe he’s doing that because he thinks he can do it better. But there’s also a sense that, like, maybe he’s doing it because he kind of likes power. And, you know, if you’re doing it and ultimately people are benefiting from it and you’re not doing it to be evil or push an evil agenda or like take over the world, ultimately, like loving power isn’t in and of itself a bad thing. But it definitely puts a bad taste in my mouth where I’m like, you were using these people to potentially get that promotion. That is how we know you. And I kind of hate that that might be like your dirty little secret of how you got there.

Katie: Yeah, no, I agree. And I think you can honestly connect that even with my theory. He was buddy buddy with Alexander Pierce. 

Taylor: Yeah. So Pierce probably knew.

Katie: Well, yeah. And who’s to say and I mean, I want to- we’ll table that Rhodey thing, obviously going to get to that discussion as well. I just and part of why I’m bringing that up is guys I have started Agents of SHIELD officially. I am in the second season on like episode seven as of right now. So Taylor is giving me this like of like shock, yeah, when I am ready to binge, I binge. Like it’s aggressive and I put my mind to it. And that’s kind of why I was thinking about it, because obviously I just watched the first season, you know, the beginning of the second season is the continuing effects of SHIELD having fallen Hydra still, you know, slithering around. But it’s a really real thing that you have to think about when we’re going back in time like this and looking at SHIELD because Hydra was implanted inside of them for that whole time.

Taylor: Yeah, I mean, there is no SHIELD without Hydra, I think we’ve learned that you know. In Winter Soldier like it made it very clear from the very inception of SHIELD, though, it came from the pure intentions of Peggy and Howard Stark, Peggy Carter and Howard Stark, just to be clear, you know, they obviously had the best of intentions. And I think the good parts of SHIELD come from them, right? They in some ways were doing it to honor Steve and all of that, but it never existed without its Hydra underbelly. And so everything that you see in SHIELD in the past, even when we go back in any of the Ant-Man movies and you’re seeing Hank Pym and you’re watching him interact with Howard Stark and Peggy and that annoying guy who he punches in the face, like when you’re seeing him interact with them like understand that one person in that room is probably Hydra. And we all I mean, I have my guesses on here it is, but like, you know what I’m saying? Like anytime you’re seeing SHIELD in the past, there’s a decent possibility that someone from Hydra is involved in that conversation or in that room.

Katie: You know, what is so stupid that just dawned on me?

Taylor: Okay, do tell. 

Katie: Fury’s personal history with SHIELD, Hydra grew within it, right? Every agent he passed in the hall there was at least in a group of ten, probably two, right? And you could say Nick Fury knows everything but we all know when Winter Soldier came, he did not understand anything until he started getting locked out of stuff that he was like, how is that physically possible? I have like the highest clearance here. And, you know, that was an L on Alexander Pierce. Like, he really like he could have kept his stuff secret and no one would have thought a thing of it. But he didn’t either way. That’s part of what makes this personal too, the Skrulls are doing the same thing.

Taylor: Ooh, so it’s that second double whammy of being attacked from the inside.

Katie: Because it’s who do you trust? Anybody could be a Skrull look at Agent Ross. 

Taylor: Yeah. 

Katie: And obviously it’s a little different. It’s not like Agent Ross is choosing to be a Skrull, he’s not. I’m not sure where he is and I’m a little worried about his well-being. You know, especially now that his Skrull is dead. I don’t know if they’ve, like, released him back out into the wild or really what that’s going to look like. 

Taylor: Also known as the world.

Katie: Yeah, you know, well, they could just drop him in, like, Canada, and they were like, go for it. Like, if you live, you live if not, oh, well, but I mean, it is it’s a double whammy. It’s another shot in that I can’t trust anybody. And didn’t he tell Captain America the same thing? Don’t trust anyone. 

Taylor: Yeah. Well, and now, you know, bringing it back to what we’ve seen and I know we’re going to dive into the Rhodey conversation in a little bit, but I do want to touch on the fact that he thought he could trust Rhodey. And now Rhodey has abandoned him. He thought he could trust Talos. Talos stabs him in the back, which that had to hurt. We’ll get to that.

Katie: Oh, yeah. We’re going to get into that in a second.

Taylor: And you know, Maria, when it comes, he can still trust Maria. Obviously, she’s no longer with us. But she didn’t know in her final moments that she could trust him. So every major person in his life thus far has either not potentially trusted him in their final moments out or stabbed him in the back or been proven to be someone he can’t trust. So that has been, I think, a through line for Fury, to your point throughout this whole show. And I just want to bring this up because we’re talking about trust. And I just don’t know if I’m reading too far into this or what does he know his wife is a Skrull?

Katie: Okay. So we’re going to jump to the end.

Taylor: Yeah. Just because like trust, right? And who do you hopefully trust more than your partner? No one.

Katie: Yeah. So this is like that whole G’iah thing that we were just talking about and we’ll get to the solution to that problem in a second, too. That’ll be a little bit later in the episode. There’s like two or three options here, right? Fury married a Skrull she just happens to put on an appearance, like a lot of them do. Cool. Fury didn’t know he married a Skrull, but she’s a good Skrull and is just, you know, not appearing as such as like appearing as a Skull or Fury married a Skrull and she’s not a good Skrull and he doesn’t know she’s a Skrull at all. And it’s being used against him. I can’t think Nick Fury, director of SHIELD, has been married for who knows how long and doesn’t know his wife is a Skrull, whether or not she’s a good one or not, who knows? But I feel like I can’t-

Taylor: Here’s the thing. I raise you that he worked for an organization for 30-plus years and didn’t know he was working next to Hydra.

Katie: I know. I’m like biting my own words because that was literally what I just threw out there. But I, I don’t know. I mean, it was so suspicious that she put a face on as soon as he came home.

Taylor: I know. And I was reading, I think a Screenrant article afterward. I think I was trying to look up something else but it was talking I was going through the Easter eggs of the episode, which I was like, oh, I might as well read the whole thing, like seems useful. And one of the ones that they were talking about was that his wife was actually one of the ones he recruited at the beginning. And I think maybe they said that he might have been married to a Skrull in the comics, Katie will clear that up in the blog. I don’t want to definitively say that because I just really skimmed the article. So that article made me feel like, all right, maybe he did know. And she just feels more comfortable. Or they as a couple made the decision that she would just kind of show who she is or sorry, she would kind of put on what they call, like the human shell when he’s around. Like maybe that’s a decision they made as a couple. Maybe it just makes her more comfortable, whatever. That was kind of their take on it. But I just to your point, like, I got suspicious when she put it on when he came home.

Katie: My argument against that in her favor, as we did with G’iah, is that they made it very clear that anybody who’s been going out into the field, any of their like and these are the bad Skrulls any of the bad Skrulls who are recruited to go out into the field must keep their shell on always, even when they’re in the compound because it helps make it more permanent and blah blah, blah, blah, blah, blah blah. There’s a whole thing about that in the first episode. I would think she would have to keep it on all the time for that same reason. If she was out in the field and working with Gravik, I would think. Am I sure? No, but that is just my theory going out there, or like my defense maybe a little bit is that they made that very clear, that it’s a lot harder to tell that somebody has a Skrull the longer that they’re playing as a human, which makes sense.

Taylor: Yeah, I mean, I definitely don’t feel strongly either way yet, but I do it just there’s something in my gut, like if I’m going with my gut, I’m like, what better of a betrayal could there be than your life partner actually being a Skrull? And let’s dive right into the Talos thing because I think they kind of go hand in hand, right? This idea that this has been his friend for 30 plus years and he’s now telling him, yeah, by the way, I invited the rest of my people here to not just a little bit that you know about. So best friend betrays him. Why not the wife too, right? Like, that’s just like another nail in the coffin of Fury’s trust. Essentially, one thing that I want to say about the Talos thing, and this may just be I didn’t catch it at the time when he called the rest of his people. Did he mean he called them in 1997, or did he call them when Fury was dusted?

Katie: I got the impression he did it when he was dusted. 

Taylor: Okay because I originally jumped to the conclusion that he did it like they’ve been there the whole 30 years. But then he started talking about, well, you were gone and then blah, blah, blah. And I was like, oh, maybe he did it during the Blip era when everybody meaning Fury was gone, which does make a little bit more sense. But then like also wouldn’t have half of the Skrulls have been eliminated?

Katie: Yes. So I was okay, this is that weird thing where it’s like, yeah, wouldn’t half of them have been dusted during that time? You know, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. My thing is, is doesn’t Rhodey bring up that there were ships that landed, that’s why he had that briefing at one point? So maybe it did happen earlier, but the fact that Rhodey would have had the briefing and Fury heard nothing about it because this would have still been in SHIELD’s Peak. This was not during the five years in which people were dusted.

Taylor: Well, hold on. Let’s do the math here. If we’re in at least 2025, 2010, because he said about 15 years ago, right, was when he had the briefing.

Katie: Yeah. It still wasn’t about when people were dusted though. 

Taylor: No, no, no, no. I’m talking about SHIELD. What year did SHIELD fall?

Katie: Winter Soldier came out in 2014.

Taylor: Okay, so then yes. I just wasn’t sure because with time jumps and things.

Katie: But even then, Nick not hearing any of that and the one thing that’s been cool for me watching Agents of SHIELD, which yes, I know I’m behind the eight ball, but the one thing that’s been cool about it is seeing some of not a lot of it, but seeing some of the whereabouts of Fury post Winter Soldier which you don’t obviously see in the movies. And so he’s still got his hand in the game. I didn’t know SHIELD still semi existed. The movies don’t go into that at all, really. Except for that one line in Age of Ultron and they never explore it further. That SHIELD is like semi rebooting.

Taylor: Well, yeah, because where the heck did they get the helicarrier? It’s like they never like mention that ever again. They just show up to save all the people which like awesome saving people. We love it. 

Katie: And then they disappear. Like you never hear a thing again about it in the movies. And I’m just like, okay, but yeah, so you kind of get a little bit like he still has his hands in a lot of places. Like they’re not completely cut off. So even if it was post Winter Soldier and SHIELD falling, you know, I still believe Fury’s got his his ability to hear things and know things. I just I don’t know it. I did get the impression it was when Fury wasn’t here. I think that would make sense to me because Earth just lost half its population. Who cares if you replace some of it with Skrulls? I’m sure there were people who were dusted, who somebody looked at pictures of them, took on their appearance, and family members thought that they were never dusted.

Taylor: The only thing is without their memory bank thing.

Katie: Oh, that’s right.

Taylor: You know what I mean? Or like their ability to touch them because, like, they don’t even have a body at that point. Like, everybody turned to ash. Because I was thinking the same thing. Like, oh, you just replace a bunch of people who are dusted, but if you don’t have those memories, like you really can’t just slot into their life.

Katie: But I will say if they were here earlier, then it was a lot easier because think about it. Say like you as Taylor, somebody took you over, a Skrull took you over two years before Infinity War happens, before the Snap. You don’t even you’re like, not even aware, you’re in a stasis. But now you disappeared because you got dusted. Well, guess what? You just made the Skrulls jobs so much more easier. Now they have an open stasis chamber and you’re gone. They don’t really have to worry about you now.

Taylor: I mean, yeah, I just. If you’re like the logistics of taking over someone who was dusted just don’t work.

Katie: Right. I’m just saying, if it did happen earlier, like the dusting probably helped the Skrulls maintain their thing. You know, that’s five years that they didn’t have to worry about certain people because they just were gone. But it did make sense, you know, to a degree. Talos was like, we didn’t expect people to come back, so we just did our thing, had our people come and lives.

Taylor: Yeah. One of the other tidbits that I got out of the article I was reading was the general that he mentions or the other Skrull that he mentions of the colony, the leader of the other colony in the comics, if I’m remembering correctly, and Katie will check this one in the blog as well he actually is the is responsible for the Super Skrulls and also like the Secret Invasion itself. The next thing and we’ve touched on this a few times that I think we need to break down is Fury’s conversation with Rhodey, which is interesting to say the least, and does not quell my suspicion that Rhodey is a Skrull. So let’s talk about it.

Katie: Yeah, I was hoping the conversation would make me feel more confident. In fact, it didn’t. And the main reason actually to me that it didn’t is because specifically when he said and he got really excited, do we need to call our friends and obviously first off Avengers. 

Taylor: Yep. 

Katie: Okay. This is who were referencing.

Taylor: Twice in the episode because they also mentioned it in the Skrull council. 

Katie: Yes. 

Taylor: What if the Avengers come back and we’ll get to that. There’s a whole section on in this episode we’re going to talk about that. So don’t worry, we’re just tabling it for the moment that to Rhodey.

Katie: Yeah, we’re tabling the Avengers discussion because I do have a lot to say, but the excitement and the way he said it, just didn’t sit right for me and part of it is because and we’ll get to this. I mean, there’s a lot of expositional things that were important in this episode, which is what made it really good. It was a lot of explanations, a lot of things that we’re going to need for later. What is it like, in Dora? It’s like a thing you need for later or oh, no, no, no. I thinking of Mickey Mouse in Mickey Mouse Clubhouse it’s a Mickey Mouse tool to save for later.

Taylor: I’m having flashbacks to our childhood.

Katie: Yeah, I was like, What is that? Like, now you get my brain. So, yes, tools for later. And one of them is obviously we saw some things that might lead to Super Skrulls, which we’ll discuss, but who would not love a bunch of Avengers to show up that they can copy their powers for? And that is what got me suspicious, because this episode of all episodes, we’re getting the introduction that they’re trying to make Super Skrulls. So that just felt really weird. It felt really like too excited for me and I was like, mm I don’t. And he’s also really ferociously trying to get Nick Fury off the table.

Taylor: Yeah, there was something about his aggression toward Nick that didn’t sit right for me. Like, I think it’s not totally out of the characterization for Rhodey in the sense that, like, he’s always been the rule follower, that kind of check everybody.

Katie: I mean, think of like, Iron Man 2.

Taylor: Yeah. I was just going to say, he did it for Tony all those years, even in Civil war, right? You have him and Sam, the two military guys going at it from two different angles because Rhodey is a rule followe. As a fellow rule follower, I salute him. But what I will say is that is not the part that’s out of character. It’s just the level of attack and aggression and the way he goes at Nick that is just not quite right. It’s too it’s too self-important, it’s too self-aggrandizing. Rhodey has always and maybe it’s because he’s been a background character up until this point, but he’s always been a little bit more humble. And there is just something about the way he said, like, let’s not have a size contest about our titles. And like all of this stuff that I was like, you’re like, he’s just a little too into himself to be Rhodey I think even in and this may have been Skrull Rhodey if you think about it, but I think even when he appeared in The Falcon and the Winter Soldier, he’s more humble as a person. And that’s just the kind of the vibe that I’ve always gotten from him and so even the designer suit thing was like a little bit weird. And there’s just like some things that just didn’t feel like it fit what we’ve known of Rhodey so far. Like, yeah, he’s fun and all of that, but there’s just something about the self-importance and the aggression, which with, with which he followed the rules that I felt was a little bit it was like taking Rhodey and putting him on steroids, a little bit like someone doing a caricature of Rhodey, which would be in line with someone pretending to be him.

Katie: I can get behind all of that. I think the only thing, the only point I was going to put in his pro column, his pro person column? 

Taylor: Non Skrull. 

Katie: A Skrull would not want to stop a war between the U.S. and Russia. That’s the whole thing is they want Russia and the US to nuke each other. Putting it quite bluntly, that’s what they want because they also they have a higher intolerance to, that’s why they’re in like abandoned nuclear areas. I’m not saying that they might not die, but-.

Taylor: Counterpoint. What if you know that a fellow Skrull is sitting on that board in the UK Prime Minister?

Katie: True. That gets revealed later on.

Taylor: No, it’s actually earlier it’s earlier that they they show the council and then the next scene is actually Rhodey testifying. So but what I’m saying is you’re just out here maintaining cover, becoming more respected, more trusted by the president of the United States, who we know is going to have a very important role later on. You’re gaining that trust as a Skrull, but you also know that whatever you say to try to and I’m doing air quotes here listeners to try to not keep the war going or stop the war. You know, you have somebody on the inside anyway, whose just going to push for it anyway because you have someone in the UK prime minister who’s actually on your side. So it’s there’s no way for them to lose. Rhodey gains more power and they’re not going to lose this war between Russia and the United States that they want to happen anyway.

Katie: I definitely forgot the series of events there. So that’s a good point. I okay, then I take his point out of the one good cookie jar he had.

Taylor: That’s what I’m saying, this is not our Rhodey.

Katie: I mean, I will say that was me. I said, that right in the predictions, I said that right from the start. I said, listen, the most suspicious person is going to be the only Avenger that’s in the show that we know of, in my opinion.

Taylor: Also, not to be this person, but where are his braces? Why can this Rhodey suddenly walk like unassisted?

Katie: Maybe they’re under his clothing. Think about technology has probably evolved.

Taylor: Totally fair. I just want to put it out there that up until now, we’ve pretty much seen his braces outside of his clothes. They’ve been very visible in all of his appearances with the exception, I don’t remember exactly how he looked in the Falcon and the Winter Soldier and whether or not he had them on. 

Katie: I don’t think he did.

Taylor: So maybe he was a Skrull already then? I mean, I don’t know. You know, you never know.

Katie: I mean, one that’s a possibility, two. It is possible at this point, they’ve been able to make it so that it goes under his clothing and so it supports him inside and you don’t necessarily see it. We also never really see him wearing anything that’s necessarily like tight enough. You might see something like poke out like a piece of, you know, whatever. But that’s a good point. I totally forgot. Rhodey was, like, paralyzed from the waist down. Like I’m not going to lie, that totally slipped my brain.

Taylor: Well, so did apparently, every director here. But look, my point is, it’s at the very least, it’s a neutral point in the sense that it could go either way. It could either be, to your point, Stark, before he did his sacrifice and everything, was working on tech for Rhodey, and he was able to do something that was nano enough to fit under his clothes so Rhodey could feel comfortable and still mobile.

Katie: And I’m sure he did. Because you know what? I don’t know why I forgot this, but Stark wasn’t dusted. I totally forgot. He had five years where he was just tinkering around because it’s not like he was running a company and it’s not like he was part of the Avengers, so-

Taylor:  Well, he did have a kid, so, you know, he’s raising his daughter.

Katie: Yeah, but it’s also not like he was helping with the search for anything because he actively wanted nothing to do with that. So, you know, points to team Stark if you couldn’t get the sarcasm? He makes me so angry. Everything’s about him.

Taylor: But anyway, he could have very well created something for Rhodey to make it less visible. On the other hand, it could be a very able bodied Skrull who just doesn’t want to wear them and Rhodeys fine.

Katie: I just feel like the Skrulls are too good that that’s so obvious. Like, that’s such a giveaway. If that if he was supposed to have those braces and you’re not wearing them like nobody just heals like that. And Skrulls have been on this planet long enough to know that like, that is such a giveaway.

Taylor: I agree. I just think it’s very sus. And I also just think let’s please for continuity like just tell me where the braces are so that we’re not completely forgetting this massive thing that happened. Because let’s not forget, like obviously the airport battle happened that happened during the airport battle. So there were already some things going down beforehand. But let’s not forget that Rhodey being paralyzed was a massive deal that helped turn Tony around in terms of like everything that happened because there were real consequences happening because of the battle between the two sides. So that is a very pivotal moment in the history of the Avengers and you cannot make it go away.

Katie: Well, I have to say, I don’t think he had them on in his funeral. 

Taylor: Screw that. Are you serious? 

Katie: I’m like, going through the mental image of the funeral right now, and I don’t remember seeing him wearing braces. I don’t recall seeing that on him. He’s in a suit like everyone else is. 

Taylor: Yeah, because Tom Holland was at a wedding.

Katie: I know. Could you imagine that? Like, I don’t think that gets talked about just enough. The fact that this guy went into the scene was like aw wedding, and instead he gets to watch the movie at the premiere and he’s like, oh my God, like, Tony Stark died and I went through his funeral and I didn’t even know it.

Taylor: But like, he also has that gut wrenching scene at Tony’s body. So I’m like dude, how did you not think you were at a funeral?

Katie: Yeah, I don’t know. They did a lot of, like, crappy, secretive stuff.

Taylor: Yeah, but doesn’t he get fake scripts, too?

Katie: I mean, now.

Taylor: Yeah, well, because he shared that one, right? Didn’t he like share one accidentally?

Katie: Well he opened the one thing on a live stream. He was like, this is so cool. And it was like, don’t share with anyone and he’s like, oh my God. 

Taylor: No I think that I think that was like.

Katie: Yeah, but still, they’re playing into the fact that he can’t keep his mouth shut.

Taylor: I mean, why do you think he had to do press with Benedict Cumberbatch the whole time? Because Ben just sat there with his, like, hand over his mouth the whole time.

Katie: Yeah. 

Taylor: All right, anyway, bringing it back to Secret Invasion, I think there’s a lot coming out of this Rhodey conversation. I also think it is, like we mentioned before, just another one of those moments of someone who Rhodey thought he could trust either betraying him or disappointing him.

Katie: You mean Fury?

Taylor: Yes. Sorry. Who did I say?

Katie: Rhodey, I just want to make sure you meant Fury.

Taylor: I did mean Fury. I have said Rhodey so many times in the last 5 minutes that it just came out. But yeah, just another person that Fury thought he could trust that he no longer can. Before we dive into the conversation around the Avengers, there’s something that is lingering from last episode that we can actually resolve, which is what side G’iah is on. And this also leads directly into the Skrulls thing, so I love the transition there. Let’s dive into her because I’m not going to lie, I said a few choice words to her at the beginning when it seemed very much like she was still in line or in league with Gravik. But then obviously over the course of the episode, you see that she’s just playing the long game and wasn’t just kind of, you know, just going to stop that bombing and that particular mission. She wants to take him down from the inside. So I’m not going to lie, I really I was angry at her for a few minutes when it reshowed Maria’s death, I was feeling a little raw. And then she just calmly walked out of there and I was like mehhh let but like angrily. 

Katie: I was happy because, one, I didn’t want to have to go through a whole process of like, oh, now she’s back, she’s like, fully on their side still. And she screwed you over. But she will be good eventually, like, that’s a long process for a six episode show, that’s a lot. I’m not shocked that she ended up being on our side, kind of being an agent from within. You can see it in how she reacts to things. She’s not happy, but you can also tell that the reason she’s with Gravik is simply because they grew up together. They are some of the few Skrull children who were on Earth together and she definitely has a loyalty to him because of that. And I’m sure that they spent a couple of years talking about how they just wanted a home and he had some crazy ideas and she was like, oh, okay, wrote it off. And now here this guy is the general of the Skrulls and he’s going to full out war against humans to take over the planet. So, you know, I don’t think she thought we were going to get this far. And she’s kind of like, when do I jump ship? Because I’m kind of scared to do it. 

Taylor: Well, I think it was kind of like, what is that horrible, horrible image where it’s like if you put a frog in a pot and you slowly turn the heat up, it won’t jump out, it’ll boil alive. But if you turn it up immediately-

Katie: Oh my God, what? 

Taylor: No it’s like this whole thing and I don’t know why I know it, but it’s essentially it’s a metaphor saying like, look, if you like, slowly turn the dial up, like, you can essentially make someone think something or do something or go along with something by doing it slowly versus going from I’m a child to I actually hate your dad and I think everything he’s doing is wrong and war on the humans.

Katie: Well, and we can argue that’s exactly what Hydra did. If Hydra sat here swigging from the very beginning inside of SHIELD, there were going to be questions asked. But if you slowly make your moves and you’re strategic about it, you eventually get Alexander Pierce as the head of SHIELD.

Taylor: Well, he wasn’t a head of SHIELD. He was something else.

Katie: Well, he was like the top dog. I don’t know what he was.

Taylor: I think he was Secretary of Defense. 

Katie: Whatever. He was a top dog.

Taylor: Yeah. No, totally. But anyway, so what we’re saying is I think she did at the beginning, especially at the beginning of episode one, I do think she believed in Gravik’s cause because I think it was one of those like, what do they call it? It’s like something by degrees where he just slowly was like becoming more and more rebellious, you know, against kind of the, the ongoing Skrull mentality. And so I think she did believe. But I think what we talked about last episode, learning about her mom and learning that this cause killed her mom really shook her. And I think that was enough to be like, let me actually take a step back and review what we’re doing, because if they could kill my mom like, maybe we’re not the good guys, right? Like Gwen says in Across the Spider-verse, I thought we were the good guys and maybe she’s, G’iah is having that moment where she’s like, I thought we were the good guys, but if we can kill my mom, like, maybe we’re not. And I think that was kind of the moment, the turn. And now she’s viewing everything they do as, oh, this isn’t just like war on the humans like they deserve this. We’re going to take over their planet. Like these are innocent lives that we are now killing.

Katie: Well, here’s the thing for me. This is what I think is what’s really showing her and this will lead right into what I think is going to be a really good conversation. Not that this hasn’t been, but I think, you know, she’s in it for the Skulls, the Skrull people, not because she’s trying to sit here and be like, we’re better than humans. We should take over their planet. They suck. I mean, Gravik has that whole thing where she talks about I like dogs more than humans, dogs are this, that, another thing. They don’t do this. They don’t do what you know, the dirty humans do. And I think G’iah is very much sincere and she’s like, it’s not that for me. It’s not who the enemy is necessarily. It’s just helping our people, helping them, you know, be able to be themselves. And that’s why I mean, even in the first episode when she first introduces herself, the first we see on screen really, when she comes out and brings a new Skrull into New Skrullos, you know, she’s so happy to introduce him and tell give him a place where he can be himself with his own people. And that, I think, is the part of the mission she’s passionate about. She’s here for the people. She’s a sympathetic person. Like we’ve always seen that in her, even when she was a child, the little bit that we saw her and Gravik is a maniac who-

Taylor: Who has some very very strong childhood trauma.

Katie: Right. And I don’t disagree but he will go to a really strong and really far lengths to do what he needs to do. And I can tell you like you could tell G’iah is not behind on that. She’s here for helping the people. And in that moment, actually, that I think is really twisting her is not even her mother’s death, but we saw it in this episode and it’s the research on how to make Super Skrulls and seeing how Gravik is going to turn their people into a fighting army to do what he needs to do. And that, I think, is going to be a line that she is not able to walk across because that’s too far for her. She’s there for the safety of her people, not turning them into experiments and not killing them in the process.

Taylor: Yeah, I think too, like, I think she really and this may come across weird, but like, I think she really respects and admires the species of the Skrull in general. Just like you can tell when she tells someone, when she’s inviting that new Skrull, like show your natural form, like she’s so much about, like obviously she can’t wear hers because of her position, but like, she’s so much about showing like who she is or having the people show who they are if they’re not one of Gravik’s spies or like part of his, you know, field operatives. And I think to your point, that idea of like Gravik forcing evolution on the Skrulls is something that would then take them away from what I think G’iah finds special about her species. And that is like a really big, like value mismatch between the two of them.

Katie: And quite frankly, it’s turning them into weapons that they aren’t always aware they’re being made into. Like I can tell you, I’m sure some of the ones that have died in the experimentation stages didn’t fully understand what Gravik was trying to do, and I’m sure maybe they understood the risk, but that doesn’t mean that they necessarily were in full support or fully aware of what was happening all the time. And there’s this say they might not have known at all. I mean, they all look at how they worship him. It’’s disgusting, but like, you get it. You understand why to them, he’s a savior. I mean, I get it, but look at how they worship that man for her and how he walks around in that compound. I mean, I would not be shocked if he said, hey, you, you’re coming with me this and they just start experimenting, don’t ask questions.

Taylor: Yeah, no, that’s very true. And that’s a really, really good point. All of this has led us, I think, to the big reveal of the episode, which is the soft introduction of the Super Skrulls. And I think the most important piece that we saw, which is what G’iah saw on her computer screen and the understanding of who they have already. Just to list it off, they’ve got our good friend Groot, Cull Obsidian, which we did talk about in the predictions episode, not in relation to the Super Skrull so much, in relation to Red Hulk, but in a, you know, kind of Easter egg to Red Hulk. They also have Frost Beast or Ice Beast.

Katie: I think it’s Frost Frost.

Taylor: I think so too. The whole reason that I was checking out articles after the episodes, I was like, where do we see that Thor: The Dark World? It’s actually a beast from Jotunheim. And the last one is-

Katie: Extremis.

Taylor: Extremis, which is potentially the most concerning in my particular opinion, and also the most triggering to Rhodey if Rhodey is real.

Katie: 

Okay, first off, yes. Second, I have a lot to say here. First, there is one thing I never wanted to be more right about, and unfortunately it’s not- and yes, I talked about Cull Obsidian in general, but I did also mention how in a piece of the trailer it does look like Gravik has Groot arms, like he shoots it out and I did bring that up. And as soon as I saw this list, I was like, uuuh. It’’s so fun to predict things and throw out theories and it is fun to be right but I hate when it’s the ones that you’re like, oh this is not good. I threw that out just because, like, it came to my mind, but I didn’t hope that this would be where this went. The second thing that I really wanted to point out, we talked about this in the predictions episode is actually the Super Skrulls are very largely based off the Fantastic Four. We did go into a whole discussion about that kind of how they could do workarounds, how that doesn’t necessarily mean that that’s how like Marvel will just hold it to them. However, obviously we don’t have the Fantastic Four that was a big thing we talked about too, like we don’t have an actual team. How would that go about if they wanted to? But they did a really good job here, I think emulating who we have seen who have kind of similar powers. Obviously, Groot would be Mr. Fantastic, the ability to kind of stretch, the Frost Giant beast thing that is a little weirder, but that would be the Invisible Woman.

Taylor: Ice is clear. 

Katie: Yeah, I mean, it definitely is a little bit more of a like stretchy area, I’ll accept it. Cull Obsidian and we did actually talk about this and the predictions would obviously be the Thing and then Extremis would be Johnny Storm.

Taylor: That’s actually a really I didn’t think about it in that sense of like the one for one parallel, but that’s actually really cool.

Katie: As soon as I saw Extremis, that’s when I hit because the frost one threw me off because Groot I’d already thought about and Cull Obsidian had already thought about, but the was the frost one because I was in the same position as you. I was like, I don’t really remember what this is in reference to like, I don’t know what we’re talking about. And then once I saw Extremis, I was like- and part of this is because of Agents of SHIELD, remembering some of the Extremis stuff. I was like, well, what are Extremis best known for doing? Well, they tend to explode after some time. And so I was like, well, there you go, there’s your fire. So I thought it was kind of interesting that they did a really good job of pulling characters or actually, I shouldn’t really just say characters, just kind of enhanced individuals or, you know, animals that we’ve seen and were able to pull their pieces together to kind of make a faux Fantastic Four. I think it works really well. What doesn’t work is that I’m scared because this isn’t going to go well.

Taylor: Yeah. And knowing that they succeed because we’ve seen it in the trailer and also like, why would they tease that and not actually have them succeed? The poop is going to hit the fan like it’s not going to be good.

Katie: Oh, I know. But I mean, listen, Fury is back. I mean, look at him. He’s beat down, but he’s getting there. And I and I don’t think we need to spend too much time on this, but I do want to mention it, you know, first off, didn’t expect to see Maria’s mom. I guess I never really anticipated she was around, I don’t know why.

Taylor: I was so angry when they I was like, how dare you make me feel this right now? How dare you? I was mad at Marvel.

Katie: I was actually more mad because I was like, listen, I get you didn’t want to make this a cameo fast, but I think it’s a little screwed up to not include people who worked really closely with her. And that does include Avengers, like Clint Barton, are you kidding me? You’re not going to have Clint Barton there. 

Taylor: Yeah, although they did throw in that line about how, like Rhodey had to pull a bunch of strings to even get her body back onto American soil.

Katie: I get that but I just was like, really? Like, I don’t know. Yeah, I see the logistics. I see like from the show perspective, like, yeah, there was a lot going on there. I just that was just kind of frustrating to me. And I know some of it too is probably like we’re not going to bring in a bunch of characters, make it a cameo fest, and I don’t want it to be. But quite frankly, I mean, people like Clint would have been there. 

Taylor: Yeah. Keep in mind, though, that wasn’t her funeral. That was just her body being brought back to American soil. So and that wasn’t even American soil that was in London. So she was being transferred out of one plane and into like an American government plane. So do I think we’re going to get a funeral? No, I think that’s the last thing-

Katie: I was just about to say, I don’t even think we’ll get one now. That’s the thing. So if it was going to happen- I think it would have been respectful to have Clint flying the plane.

Taylor: That is true. I’m just saying from a logistical standpoint, it makes less sense to have a bunch of Avengers show up to someone’s body being transferred airplanes. 

Katie: Yeah.

Taylor: And it makes more sense to have like the funeral, like off screen.

Katie: Oh, I mean, take out the Avengers and stuff. Yeah. I just think Clint, especially of all people and you know, Natasha would have been if Marvel didn’t murder her in cold blood but-

Taylor: I was waiting for it, I was like when is she going to say it?

Katie: Well, I’m just saying it’s a true fact. You know, if they hadn’t done that and made her best friend be there. And pretty much have to be one or the other and they fought literally to the death to make that choice. Screwed up Marvel that that was screwed up, okay?

Taylor: Yeah. That was trauma inducing.

Kstie: Yeah, that really was. And then they were like, anyway, here’s the Black Widow movie. 

Taylor: I know. That’s why as as much as I enjoy that movie and like, you know, just a fun fact because I think, no, that was during the show but it’s very early days of the show for us. That was our first time back in the theaters in years.

Katie: It was actually so early in the show that we didn’t even do separate episodes for it. We covered it with Loki episodes. 

Taylor: Yeah, I know it was like an almost two hour episode and it was a bear to try to edit. So yeah, I remember vividly, but it was our first time back in the theater in a while, you know, just as the pandemic was kind of receding the first time and then, you know, we got to see it together, so I’ve got really good memories of that movie. And I to this day, like the song from the intro will pop on and then I like shed a tear.

Katie: I cry. Cry like a baby.

Taylor: I’m like, okay, this is happening, but like, I will never be able to be like, that’s a fantastic Marvel movie because it just came out six years too late.

Katie: Honestly, though, now that it came out, I can kind of be okay if that makes sense. Like I think when it was first coming out, I kind of was like I was excited, but I definitely was like ugh, but I do think now that it’s out, like I just watched it not that long ago. I just was like, I’m in the mood to watch Black Widow, and I put it on and it was so good and I was like, yeah, if I just take out that this came out at the wrong part, fine. Same with even Captain Marvel, now I’m okay with it because I’m like, I mean, she just had really crappy timing, like, really bad timing because no one cared about her, because everybody was like, everybody just died.

Taylor: When’s Endgame?

Katie: Yeah, but, now I’m okay with it because I’m kind of like, okay, like, it’s the second movie in the timeline, it falls, they did a pretty good job retconning it and making it fit, okay, I can get behind it.

Taylor: I just for me, those two movies, I always will struggle with because I cannot get over when they came out. Timeline wise, like that is just like to me that is part of those movies and like, I really have trouble separating them from their release dates and I don’t know why. I just do. 

Katie: Well, I don’t have that problem but I’m going to pivot us back a little bit and talk about Maria, not her funeral or her thing or whatever, but I did want to bring that up. And I want to talk about her mom, because I think that was that moment I thought and I said it several times, I thought Maria’s death was going to be really that impetus for Nick. And I’m not thinking it wasn’t, but I think her mom sitting there and saying, you know, she would have done everything and followed you everywhere, you better make her death worth it and I think that’s it.

Taylor: Not only that, but having her mom say that on the back of what Maria was saying to him last episode, you’ve lost touch. It’s almost like the mom doesn’t hasn’t quite caught up with where Maria was. She just knows historically Maria would follow Nick to the ends of the Earth. But Maria was losing faith in him. So it’s almost like a double whammy where he’s like, oh, this is just a further reinforcement that I am so far from what I should be right now that the person who trusted me with her life to the end of the Earth was having doubts in my ability. And in the end I did get her killed because I am not all there. And so it has like so many layers to that when you just oppose it to what Maria was saying last episode.

Katie: Yeah, and so that’s why I think those moments, that moment for Nick. And so I do think we’re getting a different version of Nick coming back. We’re going to see him, you know, get back to who we saw him as. I think we even saw that a little bit with Rhodey, when he sat there, like, don’t treat me that way, I know who I am and how he was with, you know, Rhodey’s like bodyguard person and everything. So, yeah, I definitely think he’s making his comeback. And I think we’re going to see, you know, some really cool Nick Fury crap. And the only thing I want to bring up one last thing on my way in a good little segway to this is I think we can see some Nick Fury crap with Miss Falsworth. Who, I’m sorry, I love I think she’s psychotic and I love her. 

Taylor: She is the freaking best. And also, when you think about the fact that Olivia Colman played Queen Elizabeth for two seasons of the Crown and you’re like this girl, this lady, this queen goes from playing the Queen herself to playing this baddie MI6 agent who literally injects this guy with a thing that makes his blood boil and then goes, let me just pop out this little hole and scurry along. I’m just like, I love you so much.

Katie: I just that entire thing had me cackling. She’s just like, okay, well, let’s see if you talk after I, like, boil your blood. Oh, okay. Like, I loved her. I think she’s a force to be reckoned with. And I like seeing like, she is so light hearted, but she’s deadly. And I don’t think we got to see that quite as much in her talk with Fury. Like a little bit but obviously she wasn’t trying to kill Nick Fury. So I you know, you didn’t really get to see it in the same way. But she’s really out here like she’s wreaking havoc for these Skrulls where she can and she’s just like living her life while she’s doing it and I think she’s amazing. I already have seen Stan Twitter. Stan Twitter is a big fan of, Miss Falsworth, that is for sure. And I get behind it. I am on the Falsworth train like 100%.

Taylor: Yeah, she might be my new favorite like my favorite new character of the set so far.

Katie: She reminds me of Valentina.

Taylor: Yeah, actually, she does.

Katie: And I think that’s why. They’re these powerful women who just act very, almost aloof.

Taylor: Yeah.

Katie: You don’t take them very seriously at first, but they’re sitting here and they’re, like, literally deadly. But I just think of Valentina, even at the end credit of of Black Widow, since we were just talking about it being, like, overly dramatic, blowing your nose, being like this, so you’re just sitting there and you’re like, girl, what are you doing? And then she’s like, anyway, here’s the man who killed your sister. Have fun with that.

Taylor: Extra. Both of them are so extra and I love it. Also, the way that Sonya does not forget her purse, I’m like, That is a queen right there. But it’s interesting that you compare her to Valentina because obviously the CIA and MI6 are like essentially sister agencies. They have the same general function within government. So it’s interesting that these two women who are you know, obviously Valentina is the head of the CIA. I’m not sure exactly what Falswroth’s rank is, but clearly high ranking women within their respective agencies come across like bubblegum and cherries, but in the meantime, while you’re chewing their bubble gum, they’re laughing because they had six ounces of whatever in the bubble gum-

Katie: Cyanide. 

Taylor: Yeah, that’s what I’m trying to think of. They put cyanide in your bubble gum and you’re dead and they’re smiling. Like, I just love it. I love it. 

Katie: I know she’s such an icon already. And that’s why, like we’ve already seen in trailers, there are more scenes with her and Fury. I think their partnership is going to be what helps dig him out of his hole as well. I think he needs someone like her, especially now that Talos took off and I think it’s going to be good for him to be around her. And I think he if he’s back on his feet, he’s a worthwhile soldier for her. And I think that’s what we’re we’re aiming to get to.

Taylor: Yeah, I agree. I think we talked last episode about the hero’s journey. I think he’s now at the bottom. So in essence, the beginning of the hero’s journey, we’re going to start to see his ascent kind of out of rock bottom and into returning to some semblance of the Nick Fury form that we’re kind of used to seeing.

Katie: Yeah, I agree. I think he’s coming. I think this was a really good episode to kind of set that stage in every way. I mean, even the pre-show post, obviously for when we’re recording this recording, this the Wednesday the show came out. So the pre-show post also came out today and that’s even I even said it in that. It’s like Nick lost all his allies in this episode. He like any bridges he still had, he essentially just burned. Whether he burned it himself or they burned it. I mean, like Talos, like Rhodey, they technically really burned it themselves. He’s starting over. And that’s what this episode showed us.

Taylor: Yeah. And he’s going back to his roots of his wife, who is a Skrull, but he may or may not know that.

Katie: Or, and I just thought about this. Maybe she was infiltrated over the past few years, and we didn’t know that. So maybe she wasn’t always a Skrull.

Taylor: Also very possible.

Katie: So there are now four possibilities.

Taylor: Great. We love it.

Katie: Love it, love it.

Taylor: Amazing. Well, that is it for our Secret Invasion Episode Two Reactions. I am very excited to see how this story unfolds. I know Katie is as well. If you are looking forward to our future coverage of the remaining four episodes of Secret Invasion and you have not yet subscribed on your podcast platform of choice, please do so. It will help keep us top of mind so you don’t forget to listen to our episodes in relation to every episode of Secret Invasion. Also, as I mentioned a few times throughout the episode, definitely please check out our blog. I know I mentioned a few things in passing that Katie is going to do a little bit of extra digging on to give you some concrete answers. So definitely check out our website because there’s a whole lot of goodies on there to help supplement this episode.

Katie: Make sure you guys also go on Twitter, if that’s a platform you’re on, at SisAssembledPod and you can follow us to get updates there or on Instagram or on both if you’re on both and you would like to. To continue to keep up with everything the show is doing as far as new episodes, new blog post, just fun, extra stuff. Everything’s there. So go give us a follow. And as Taylor was saying, we will be covering Secret Invasion as the show continues to come out. So next week you can expect episode three reactions on the Friday after the show, as always. So we hope you guys are enjoying the show, you guys are watching it every week and you’re also listening to our show because Marvel just blow your mind, so let’s talk about it and.