Transcript

Taylor: Well, listeners, crazy to say it, but we’re already halfway through Secret Invasion, and Katie and I were just talking before we started the recording, but this has been the shortest episode of the three thus far. And in spite of being the shortest, I have to say A, it might have been my favorite, and B, I think it was probably the most important. So needless to say, we are definitely excited to dive way more into this one because I think there are a lot of Easter eggs and also big, big things that happened that we definitely need to dissect. But to start it all off, I’ve given my $0.02 now Katie, what did you think of the episode?

Katie: I really liked it. I thought it was really it was a really good balance between some action scenes and kind of like holding your breath moments, some like, oh, crap moments, and then some really good story elements that just kept the plot moving. I mean, this is the first episode where you’re really like, oh, this is really bad. Like, this is going- like I mean, we knew going into this, I mean, like we all knew the Skrulls were not going to be something to mess around with, especially once Super Skrulls came into the equation. But we all knew, like after this episode, if you aren’t sitting there and you’re not thinking, oh no, this is really not good then you watched the wrong episode, or you weren’t paying enough attention because I’m ready. I want episode four now. Like, this is the first episode, not that I have it like the rest of the series, but like this is the episode where I’m sitting here and I’m like, give me the next one. I need to know what happens next.

Taylor: Yeah, I think to that point, going off of it being the shortest episode, this is the first one where I was like, what do you mean it’s over? Like, what do you mean that’s the end? Like, I have so many questions. I have so much I want to see. To your point, get me more, bring me more. And so it’s a for it to be the shortest episode like that was so smart for them to just like compact so much into it and then leave you with that taste where you’re like, oh man, I want to know like, what’s going to happen next? So let’s dive into it. I mean, I feel like there was so much. The first thing I want to say before I forget, because I was so excited that I even caught it, but in the flashback and then we’ll go into Fury’s relationship with his wife. In the flashback when he first realizes who she is and she first shows him her human shell, she gives him information and she gives him information on Dreykov who, you know, I admit, I was like, why do I know that name? And at first, I was thinking of the general who, well, I’m bad with names. She’s giving me a look.

Katie: Yeah, I have like this exasperated look because I was like, oh, my God, you didn’t notice that immediately? I was like, oh, my God, the Red Room.

Taylor: No. Well, I knew I knew the name, but my first thought was that General from Hydra, who created the Twins and his name is Stryker, because I, he’s also really, really important. And I also think he creates Deadpool in at least one of the versions of the X-Men or he has like, some kind of relationship with Deadpool. So I was immediately with Stryker, and then I was like, no, no, no, that’s not right. So then I was like, oh my gosh. And then I start thinking about the timeline and I was that means Natasha was there because wasn’t she in like, she went into the red room in like 93, I think based on the movie if I’m remembering years correctly? So in 98, she would have been five years in probably starting to go out on missions as a Widow, which is crazy to think about. But then if you think about how that plays into the Black Widow movie, obviously that’s the beginning of his attempt to bring Dreykov down, and that’s probably how they ended up getting Natasha on their side. And this is the beginning of what will be their relationship Fury and Natasha because he’s starting to get onto her trail without maybe realizing it’s her trail specifically.

Katie: Yeah, I really appreciated this one because I think it’s cool to kind of know and I know I talked about this last episode watching. Agents of Shield finally, it’s kind of the same thing, at least the first few seasons, right? Like you’re sitting there and you’re kind of getting these small little tidbits of things. You’re like, oh, it’s a callback, that’s cute. And so I feel like this was a good one, especially because we do know Fury’s relationship with Natasha moving forward. It just feels really full circle to me and so I really enjoyed it. But honestly, and I hate to do this, everybody who ever listened to this podcast knows I hate to do this, but I got to give you credit because before we get to his wife specifically you called it you said last episode that he used the Skrulls to rise through the ranks in SHIELD.

Taylor: I know. 

Katie: And you said that’s what you bet he used them for. And I was like, yeah, I mean, I didn’t disagree, but yeah, you did call it. It’s in a recording man. So, you know listeners got to give her the credit. 

Taylor: It lives forever and it is a time capsule of my correctness. And I am so happy I’m going to bask in the glow of getting one right. I will be a good sister and I will say, I think we’ve both had some really good ones with this series, you had a really good one about Groot and the Super Skrulls and calling that, and mine is Fury using the Skrulls to rise through the ranks of SHIELD. I mean, when Talos was laying it out, he was like, you didn’t get a promotion that wasn’t brought on by a Skrull. I was sitting there and I was like oh yeah, this girl was right. But then also it’s like on the one hand I was happy because I’m not usually right. You guys have over two years of recording.

Katie: No you’re like maybe three for like quite a few.

Taylor: I know like you guys have two years’ worth of predictions and theories for me. And so, you know, there’s a record of me being just generally wrong about things. Sometimes, though, when I’m right, I’m right, but that doesn’t happen very often. So there is a part of me that was like, heck yeah, I’m right. But then there’s another part of me that was like, this makes me completely reframe my relationship with Fury, because his whole thing, his whole characterization from the get-go is I’m the man who knows everything I have eyes everywhere. And now only now are we starting to understand who those eyes were and how he used them to rise through the ranks. It makes me feel like I trust him less not just because he lied about that potentially, but also because it makes him seem like less of a competent agent because he had this secret weapon the whole time. It wasn’t just Fury knowing what buttons to press, it was Fury having these secret spies of his own. He basically was running his own agency within SHIELD. And to me, that completely reframes his capability as a spy. And I hate that. And it really sits funky with me.

Katie: Yeah, actually, I think that’s like a really good way to say that because I couldn’t figure out why I kind of felt icky about it. I mean, we felt icky about it last week. Knowing that that was a theory we kind of had to throw out there, knowing that just in general, regardless of how it was done, Fury somehow utilized the Skrulls to his advantage, especially considering they’re refugees and he took advantage of them, which also already didn’t sit right.

Taylor: Yeah.

Katie: But I will say like when Talos is really lining it all up for him, I was like, you know, what did Nick do himself? Look, I think once he’s a director, you expect that, right? I mean, we all do. Like when you’re a head honcho of something, you have everybody working for you for a reason. You have your eyes and ears because you’re the head. But I think knowing how he was rising threw everything and he was the low man on the totem pole but used the Skrulls in that process. Definitely is like, what do you do well? In the nicest of ways, like, it’s kind of like before you were a director, before you had all the SHIELDS resources at your disposal at all times, what were you able to do yourself? What did you accomplish? Because it doesn’t seem like a lot of it right now.

Taylor: Yeah, I think it’s interesting because I think what it shows is that Nick has really good instincts and he knows what information he needs. And I think Talos is getting at this too. He knew what information he needed to press certain buttons and he knew what people he needed to turn or to bribe or to, you know, blackmail or whatever in order to do the right thing essentially. He’s working for SHIELD. He’s trying to stop terrorist attacks and, you know, all that good stuff. So, you know, good goal. I’m not going to take that away from him for sure. But I think that’s where Nick’s real strength is, is less the actual physical work of the espionage, of gathering the details and all of that, but more the actual, like strategic, here’s how we’re going to employ the information. This is the information we need to get in order to achieve this objective. And so I don’t want to take that away from Nick that he has that kind of more strategic mind. But I think it is reframing from seeing him as this complete all-around baddie agent to understanding, okay, maybe he’s not as good at the actual information gathering and espionage as we thought, but that he’s still a brilliant tactician, you know?

Katie: I don’t disagree. I do say now I’m a lot more Team Coulson because I feel like he is a more well-rounded individual. But I actually was kind of thinking about this as you were talking, not that I wasn’t listening, but I was fully thinking about this as you were talking as well. I actually want to table Nick’s wife a little bit.

Taylor: Okay. 

Katie: I want to put this a little further into the back of the episode because it was I think the most important aspect of it is at the end of the episode, I want to try to keep us a little bit in line with how the episode played out. But I do want to talk about Talos and Fury’s relationship because first off, loving the bromance, big fan. But I also want to talk about Fury since we’re already on the topic of him and how, you know, the last episode was Fury stands alone. He has no allies and now we see him gaining his allies back, making amends, if you will. And, you know, for the first time, I think we see Nick Fury apologize, which, you know, who would have thought that ever happened? And so I kind of want to bring it all together into this character development that we’ve been talking about as we’ve discussed the show.

Taylor: Yeah, no, that’s a really good point. It was something that I was thinking about as well actually, at one point was thinking, oh, we’re watching Nick Fury learn how to make friends. Like true friends, right? The scene where Talos is, like, you have to tell me that you’re sorry and that you can’t do anything without me. I was like, if that’s not me and my best friend, I literally don’t know what that is. I think anybody who has a best friend just like relates to that moment so much. And it was interesting to see him initially walk away, like screw this, I’m Nick Fury, I’m not doing this. And then have the realization like, yeah, I’m Nick Fury, but I’m Nick Fury totally alone. And this guy has been by my side for 30 years. And then you go further to the next, I think, really poignant moment besides when Talos was talking about how Nick kind of used them for all of his promotions. But the next really big moment, I think, is when Nick asks Talos, like, why didn’t you join with Gravik? Why didn’t you kind of create a joint unified Skrull effort? And he said, well, I didn’t join Gravik because I’m with you. And it shows Talos is a loyal friend who really, truly believes Nick, and I don’t know that Nick really grasped the depth of how much Talos trusts him until that moment. I think, you know, going back to the idea that he used Talos’ people, I think, yes, he thinks of Talos maybe a little more like a friend than most people. But realistically, every relationship that Nick has had besides potentially his wife, which is a little bit of a gray area, is really transactional. Even Natasha, right, views her kind of like a daughter, but at the end of the day, she still works for him. It’s transactional, right? And so there’s that element to every single one of his relationships. And I think for the first time, Nick is starting to look at his friendship with Talos, which Talos just views as a pure friendship and bond, and he’s starting to actually see it in that way instead of seeing it as a transaction as a quid pro quo. You give me this, I gave you that and he’s like, oh no, this guy actually believes in me. Maybe I need to put my faith in someone else as well. Trust and actually put effort into this relationship because I think for the first time he’s realizing how meaningful it actually is.

Katie: And he quite frankly, keeps him in check. And I think that’s what we saw in this episode, as he sat there and he was like, hold on, you’re going to apologize. You’re not going to just come in here and expect me to help you. And you’re also going to have to recognize the fact that you got where you got SHIELD because of me and my people, and you’re going to tell me that you recognize that. But I think that’s a really healthy thing to do and keep him in check and a great way to do it because, I mean, you know, he’s Nick Fury, right? I mean, you’re going to have those moments where even if Nick never comes across- well, he has his moments, but not in a weird way. But he’s very confident. And sometimes I think it can come across that he’s, you know, a little full of himself, not in a weird way, but just because he highly believes in his abilities. He’s a high-ranking member of SHIELD, even if SHIELD is kind of not around. But like, I think it’s a great relationship. I think it also goes back because this is a character we knew very little about and we still know very little about. But within just three episodes I’m like, okay, cool so he’s got a bestie that no one knew about whose a Skrull. We’ve now learned how he got where he got in SHIELD, which we would have never known. We knew he had a wife just for everybody who’s been on the internet like when did they say he had a wife? Since it literally says it in Winter Soldier like that was a full storyline. So we did know he had a wife, but now we’ve seen her. Like we’re actually getting to see this personal side of him. And like I said, it’s also hilarious. I’m getting Sam and Bucky vibes like it’s nobody’s business. Like when he’s like, why did you stop the car? Because we’re here. I honestly was laughing, and that’s what I mean. This episode had me across the entire spectrum of like, oh my God, this is so bad. This is terrible. Then I’m laughing 5 minutes later because these guys are a mess. They don’t know how to do anything clearly. They don’t know how to work well together in the field.

Taylor: Yeah.

Katie: But at the same time, they’re just so funny and they’re best friends and I just it’s, it’s so good.

Taylor: Yeah. I love seeing Nick and how comfortable he is with Talos because they’ve known each other for 30 years, that’s such a long time. And so, like, he’s so he can be more of himself. He doesn’t have to be like ‘Nick Fury’. He can be Nick Fury if that makes sense. Like, you know, like he doesn’t have to be Mr. Director of SHIELD and Mr. Superspy, he can just be the kind of guy that we saw, like in Captain Marvel, who was, you know, he was a spy and all, but he was funky like he was so funny in Captain Marvel. And I think you see more of that come out versus the kind of hardened spy that we all were first introduced to when he made his first few appearances.

Katie: Oh, definitely. I mean, I think those first few appearances, you know, that is just a stoic, like leader figure that just would show up for what, like a minute and a half, if that of screen time. And you were just like, that guy’s not someone to mess around with. He even got Tony Stark to kind of be like fine, I won’t be a part of your team. We didn’t want you. Well, I don’t want it anyway. He even got Tony desperate to join his little team up. So I think it’s a lot of fun. I’m really loving seeing this different side of Nick again because, to your point in Captain Marvel, we did see a very different version of Fury. And I mean, he’s been through things. We’ve seen things, we know things, but it is so different. And, you know, to just see it then now it’s getting more of these flashbacks, getting some more information. It definitely makes it not feel so stark of a difference either. Like we saw one version of Nick and then we saw a completely other different version of him.

Taylor: Yeah, definitely. To your point, I like seeing those years in between, especially because, you know, we obviously have a big gap between the 1940s when we have Cap and then in the 1990s when we have other Cap and so like that’s a 50-year difference. There’s not a ton of exploration in those years. We get a few years, you know obviously in Endgame and flashbacks in Ant-Man. But then the other really big gap really is, you know 1993 to 2008 and that’s a solid 15 years. Obviously, it’s not as long as the 40 to 50 years between the two Cap movies, but it’s still a very solid period where we don’t have a lot of information. And so I like that we’re to your point, not only getting this look into Fury and his evolution from happy-go-lucky Fury in the nineties to very stoic Fury that we saw, you know, in the early phase one and beyond. But now we’re also starting to see like filling in those gaps, understanding, tying things together. Like to me that Dreykov reference was perfect. It’s like Loki mentioning it in Avengers level perfect because it wasn’t forced, but it was enough to really tie it in and be like, yes, this is a thing and this is something that ties so many different storylines together without it being like hit you over the head, we’re going to drop an Easter egg now. And I love that, the subtlety of it.

Katie: So I will say I don’t disagree with that statement, but I got to say Loki mentioning it in Avengers in 2012. 

Taylor: So good. 

Katie: And then Black Widow coming out, what, 2021? Like that was a different level of, oh my God. They held on to that for ten years. So not that I disagree with your statement of how good this one was, but like, it’s a lot easier to do a little bit of a callback afterward versus the fact that they made Loki make that comment, and none of us sort of thing of it until the movie came out almost ten years later. That’s insane.

Taylor: Yeah, no, I totally agree.

Katie: Yeah, but I don’t disagree with everything you said either. I just wanted it because that was just an insane callback. But I want to pivot because we see Talos kind of going M.I.A. and on his own little like opt mission to meet with Gravik at the beginning before him in Fury makeup. And the thing is, we learned two things from this, and one of them definitely has an effect much later in the show, or in this episode, one of them is going to have the effect later in the show. The first thing we learn is Gravik assumes G’iah is already working for her dad or she’s a mole.

Taylor: Oh 100%. That whole thing with the ship, the fact that like immediately when he said that in front of her or told her I don’t remember if she was on the phone. But I was like, girl, why are you even passing this information on? It’s clearly a trap.

Katie: I thought the same thing I said, you just cornered yourself.

Taylor: You have to be smarter than this.

Katie: Yeah, I thought the same thing. I was like, you just cornered yourself because other than the three people who went on that mission, who are in that mission, and then the guy who was making the call, you don’t know who else knows. It might have been just them. 

Taylor: Oh, she didn’t leave herself a scapegoat. And that’s where I’m like, you have to think a few steps ahead. In one of my favorite podcasts, they always say, this person is playing 2D chess versus 3D chess. G’iah was not playing 3D chess. And so it’s like girl, like you have to think smarter than this if you’re going to try to infiltrate and get out alive.

Katie: I couldn’t agree more. I immediately hated that. I was like, no, you’re setting yourself up for failure here. But not only was it that I mean, he pretty much said it to her father. He said you should be lucky I don’t have her sent to you in a body bag already. He knows. 

Taylor: Yeah.

Katie: I mean and come on. I get it. I understand the connections, but you are Talos’ daughter. No crap. They were already going to feel a type of way towards you joining their resistance, no matter how much you joined it and believed in it. I mean, we saw even at the beginning, she clearly believed enough in it. She was estranged from her dad. But we saw what changed that Either way, bad call. But the other thing we learned is that we have our first Super Skrull because I said, no, no, no, no, no. And I was like, but I know what a glowing hand looks like. And so we can at least confirm that Gravik is the first Super Skrull with the Extremis stuff inside of him.

Taylor: Can I put something out there that I was also thinking about a lot?

Katie: Oh, God. I kind of feel like I know what you’re going to say because I feel like I’ve had a similar thought, but we could be completely different, so we’ll see. 

Taylor: Okay. Well, my thought is we talked a lot and I’ve been watching a lot of videos about everybody thinks Rhodey is a Skrull, right? I think that he’s the new this is Mephisto.

Katie: And we’ll get to that conversation in a second.

Taylor: It’s kind of that whole thing where everybody’s like, really locked in on one thing. And finally in agreement about something because the fans very rarely agrees on anything. But I think we’re all in agreement there. But here’s why I think I feel very strongly about it, especially now, because there are very few beings on this planet who are alive, who have the Extremis living within them, one of which being Pepper Potts. In fact, she may just actually be the only one who’s still alive. And if that is the case, who as a Skrull would have the best contact, the best chance of coming into contact with Pepper Potts and getting her DNA? Rhodey.

Katie: But I thought they removed the Extremis from her.

Taylor: No, he said he fixed it. 

Katie: Like made it more stable. 

Taylor: Yeah, because remember he said, oh, I couldn’t. He was trying to figure it out because he’s like, how did I figure this out when I was drunk and I can’t figure it out now? And then he was as he does that voiceover in Iron Man three when he’s removing the Arc reactor from his chest, he talks about how he helped Pepper. I don’t think he if I remember correctly, I don’t think he ever removed it from her. I think he stabilized it so she wouldn’t blow up. And so I think that Skrull Rhodey was able to get Pepper’s DNA because he’s so close to the family, obviously, and probably is even closer now that Tony’s gone because he’s probably stepping in to like, help the poor widow and her daughter and now he’s able to get her DNA. And there you go with the Extremis, because realistically, Agents of SHIELD decide who else holds the Extremis within their body.

Katie: So I actually have the answer. We see an Extremis in Shang Chi.

Taylor: Oh my God, you’re right.

Katie: And that’s not to say there aren’t others out there because we saw that one. However, I really do like where you’re going with that. I like the thought process. I mean, she would be the first line like if I was a Skrull that took over Rhodey’s body, I would be like, well, there you go. 

Taylor: Direct contact. 

Katie: Yeah. But it’s not to say that there aren’t other Extemis out there and that they aren’t necessarily captured. You know, like, obviously we saw that one fighting in the Fight Club thing in Shang Chi but that’s not to say even people like the DODC don’t have an Extremis locked up. So unfortunately the one thing we don’t have a lot of information from with Iron Man three is how many were actively being made. And so we don’t know. And that’s not to say how many more people might not have carried on some of that later on. Who knows? Because that seems to be the ongoing thing is there’s always somebody who picks up, you know, somebody’s science and then they just keep going with it. So I like your thought process. I’m not against it and we’ll get to the Rhodey discussion in like 5 seconds. But I don’t know. I can argue against that just a little bit. And so we learned all that from that conversation. But speaking of Rhodey, let’s get into this because I think he’s a Skrull. 

Taylor: Noooo.

Katie: Let me finish. 

Taylor: I just went on for 5 minutes about how the whole fandom thinks he’s a Skrull and Katie is like, I think he’s a Skrull and this is a novel idea.

Katie: Let me finish my sentence and then you wouldn’t have had to say it. No, I have two new reasons. One, because Nick makes his comment or Fury, nobody calls it Nick. Nick makes his comment that he knows somebody high up in the US government who’s a Skrull. He has a lead on that. Okay. Who else did he magically just find out was a Skrull and I and for anybody who’s gone to our blog and our reactions to episode two, I went very in-depth with reasons why before this episode we believe Rhodey’s a Skrull. Now, with that, one of them wholeheartedly was just like, who is Rhodey to talk the way he did to Nick Fury? Like it was very out of character for Rhodey, not just like, not to show any respect really, but also just the way he kind of seemed like he was very angry.

Taylor: Yeah, there was an extra layer of emotion in there that didn’t belong.

Katie: No. And I mean, you guys have to remember, like, other than the little Falcon and Winter Soldier cameo Rhodey had, the last time we saw him was Endgame, where he was like, even in the darkest of some of these moments, he was also a comic relief character. I mean, he’s been a comic relief character. Like he has those moments, but he’s hilarious. So I definitely was like, that felt weird and that was one of the reasons. But now we have Nick out here saying well I think somebody high up in the US government. Rhodey literally answers to the president. So that was its own thing. But we’ll get to like the effects of this phone call later on, but at the very end, with Nick’s wife, it sounds like Rhodey on the phone.

Taylor: Oh, see, I couldn’t hear the other end.

Katie: No, no, no, no, at the very, very end, when she’s like, I want to speak to Gravik and he was like, no, you’ll get you’ll speak to me instead. 

Taylor: Oh, see, I didn’t get Rhodey’s voice from that. 

Katie: See, I went on Twitter to somebody who clipped that and just watched it like four times. And I was like, I can hear it.

Taylor: Interesting.

Katie: When I watched it on my own, I kind of just was like, okay, I wasn’t thinking anything of it. But as I actually rewatched it and it was only I think whoever clipped it was like 5 to 7 seconds. So there’s only that little bit. So you could just keep- like it wasn’t a long thing. And I was like, no, I can hear it. It sounds like Rhodey trying to not sound like Rhodey, but it sounds like him.

Taylor: Interesting, okay.

Katie: So that’s my second reason why I’m now getting more and more convinced that he’s a Skrull.

Taylor: I like it. I mean, look, like I’ve made it very clear. We put it in the I swear to God, we put it in the predictions. I don’t remember anymore, it was like four weeks ago.

Katie: Oh, we did. He was my top choice on who we thought was going to be a Skrull. 

Taylor: Yeah. So, I mean, we’ve been on this Rhodey is a Skrull train for a while. I’m all here for collecting evidence. I think between the two of us we just came up with three different new reasons, some of which are more concrete than others, why he could and probably is a Skrull. I think at this point we’re all just waiting for the reveal. I honestly when she when G’iah was walking through their little hallway where they keep the humans that they’ve taken over-

Katie: Yes, wait, yes there was one that looked like Rhodey. That’s my other one that if you look in the background, there is one that looks like Rhodey.

Taylor: Because I was waiting for her to pass Rhodey.

Katie: Yeah. She pauses at that woman, right? And right next to the woman the figure that looks like Rhodey. It looks like his side profile. 

Taylor: Okay, I might have to look for it again because I was truly looking. I was like is this the moment? Is this how they’re going to reveal the Skrull? Because I was thinking, is it Rhodey or are we going to see somebody, like, totally insane?

Katie: Yeah, I also thought that. 

Taylor: That we never would have expected where I was like, oh my God, this is how they’re going to do it.

Katie: Like, just casually drops, not that they would, but just casually drops like Captain America, like Sam is hooked up there, yeah. 

Taylor: Literally. I’ve been using Sam as my example the whole time because I know it’s not going to be him. So, like, but there was a part of me that was like what if we just roll up to Sam being like a Skrull? Just something where they were like, you guys thought. You know how they love to do that to us. I was like what if? But then there’s another part of me that was like, this is the moment where they show it’s Rhodey. But they didn’t potentially, at least not like, super definitively.

Katie: Yeah, it’s definitely not definitive. But I will say, I was looking in the background and it just looks like his side profile because, you know, all those posters that came out for Infinity War and Endgame where they did everybody’s side profiles. So you like distinctively know.

Taylor: Even Civil War, everybody’s facing each other.

Katie: Yeah, well that’s what I mean. So like you like distinctively can see it and I was like that looks like his side profile. The shadow on him looks like it’s – that’s Rhodey. And so actually I thank you for reminding me that, because I totally forgot I wasn’t even thinking about that. So I guess that’s, like, almost reason number four, just from this episode, that’s almost- well it can’t be concrete because we don’t know for sure that would be the best piece of evidence probably singlehandedly that we got was that we had a figure that looked very much like Rhodey in the background of this episode. 

Taylor: Yeah, and I mean I just at this point, I’m almost just like the mystery is not if, but when and how, like when and how are they going to show me? Is it that moment that we talked about a lot in the predictions with the president? Is it another moment where we’re going to walk down that hallway and we’re going to see, you know, actually definitively that is him? I don’t know yet. But that, I think, is almost where the mystery has evolved to. Not if, but when and how.

Katie: Yeah, I agree. And I also want to just really quick, since we’re kind of talking about who else could be the Skrulls that we pass in the hallway? Is it Rhodey? Whatever. I just want to also mention, like this is really mentioning the Avengers a lot more than I think we even thought. There was a couple throwaway moments that, like, hinted towards them, even Gravik, saying oh and the superheroes here they’ll come, but then we’ll be Super Skrulls. And so since this has been an overarching theme, we’ve kind of been talking about, I’m starting to be like, we’re really seeming to set this up to be a big thing, like a movie kind of thing coming next. Now, granted, we have half a show left, but I’m like, I don’t know, we’re really seeming to set this up for something a lot bigger coming next.

Taylor: Well, yeah, and I know you and I have talked about that a lot. And just to get a little bit more meta and compare it to some of the other shows, I think one of the things that you and I have criticized over the different shows is they’ll kind of either I would say, actually, no, let’s say it this way, the majority of them start too slow and then have to jam a bunch of stuff.

Katie: Yeah. 

Taylor: Into the last episode, the last two episodes.

Katie: Just say Loki. 

Taylor: Well, I think a lot of them did it. Let’s be honest. 

Katie: No, I agree. But I do think the first one’s main culprit was out of the shows that came out, Loki was the first, I think, to have done that.

Taylor: Yeah, no, I agree. I think it started a trend of like not really properly pacing the shows to the point where, you know, there’s too much happening in the last two episodes and we hit episode three, four, five and we’re like. I remember especially Captain Marvel, not Captain Marvel, Ms. Marvel, where we were like, how in the world are you going to wrap this up in 45 minutes? I distinctly remember having that conversation. And so I really hope that we’re going the direction that you mentioned, that we’re setting something up bigger and we’re not following this continued trend of spending too much time on the set up and not enough time on the resolution where we’re just really blasting past really good opportunities because we’re like, oh my God, we’ve only got, you know, 45 minutes, an hour and a half if you’re going to do it over five and six. So I want it to be setting up something bigger. But realistically, my bigger concern is that we’re just going to end up with a really rushed five and six.

Katie: I’m manifesting otherwise. I will say I feel like with the amount of remarks towards the Avengers, which definitely are a lot more, I mean we saw like two of the trailer, but I kind of thought that was going to be it. The fact that we kind of keep getting it, I have a feeling the second the Super Skrulls become really on the board, that’s going to be when Nick has to make the call, because quite frankly, we know Nick and yeah, he’s a do it himself kind of guy, but is he?

Taylor: I mean, think about it this way. Loki shows up, he calls the Avengers, creates the Avengers really, to clean up his own mess because, I mean, as we’ve talked about ad nauseum, the Avengers are Nick’s fault. Oops. And then think about his final moments in Infinity War. What was he doing? Calling Captain Marvel. He’s not, as much as he wants to do things on his own.

Katie: That’s what I mean. Once it becomes big, it becomes cosmic. It becomes further out of a realm of just, you know, Hydra even. He can’t, I mean, who can? He’s a man. He is a man. And, you know, he’s got nothing going special for him. He doesn’t have wings. He doesn’t have anything else that’s a fun suit. He’s Nick Fury. And so I think we’re going to see him fight this to the best of his ability. We’re going to see him try and stop Gravik wherever he can. But I think when the Super Skrulls come fully onto the table and I think I liked how they kind of sprinkled it in this just kind of be like we’ve had at least one success here and it’s Gravik himself but I think it’s and also, by the way, I didn’t throw this out earlier, but I’m going to say it now. So Graviks’ are going to have all them. I have a feeling.

Taylor: Yeah, I was thinking the same thing because if you go by the trailer he has the Groot power as well.

Katie: Yeah, we already know he has the Groot one. We saw the Extremis. I have a feeling they injected him with everything he has all four of them.

Taylor: Oh, he’s so egotistical. He was like, give me all of it.

Katie: Yeah. Oh, 100%.

Taylor: He doesn’t just want to create Super Skrulls. Within the Super Skrulls he has to be the most powerful. It’s an ego play.

Katie: Oh, yeah. But I just want to throw that out there because I kind of forgot to mention it earlier, but I definitely think when they become fully on the board and it’s not just Gravik, I think that’s going to be the calling card there. But you know, we’ll see. We have three episodes, to your point, I’m not stressed yet. I’m going to manifest, you know, something bigger coming out of this because of the comics and everything else. I think it deserves it. But I think this show, regardless of what happens so far, is doing an amazing job at being that show that kind of is like, here’s a threat, let’s get into it. Let’s understand who tried to stop it first and the background of it. And if it does become an Avengers level threat, okay, but we have a background for the first time, just like even when Loki came, we semi knew like we had seen Thor. We knew Loki was kind of like he wasn’t right. We knew he was having issues. So we knew the background of how he kind of ended up with Thanos is because of what happened at the end of the first Thor. So it’s like that’s what’s important to me, in my opinion, is having that background, seeing kind of the build up. And so if it does turn to an Avengers level threat, which I hope it would, I’m prepared. I know the threat, I understand it and I’ve seen Nick Fury do everything he can to stop it. 

Taylor: Yeah, I’m trying to think it’ll be interesting too, with The Marvels coming out later this year. You know, and, and I think this is something we talked about in the predictions, but I truly believe this actually takes place later in the timeline than The Marvels, because if you think about it, he was still on SABER and it’s obvious like he can go back, it’s not a one way trip. But I think there’s so much in this show that has shown him the mistakes or the consequences of him spending so much time on SABER that I don’t see him going back. So to me, I think that takes place ahead of time. I also think if you guys remember at the end of Wandavision, Monica actually talks to a Skrull. To me, if there’s a war going on between any faction of Skrulls and humans, she’s not going to have that good relationship anymore. You know what I mean? Like, it’s going to be strained or it’s going to be less, less friendly. We’ll just say it that way, you know. So I think to me and if she’s going to talk to Skrulls and interact with Skrulls potentially on SABER and Nick’s there, then that movie has to take place before this movie. So that’s why I think it’s interesting because I think we’re again, starting to get movies out of movies and shows out of order because it does not make sense with where we are with certain characters to have that take place after this.

Katie: Yeah, I’m not sure I disagree. I think I’m not sure I should say I’m not sure I’m fully aligned with it, but I’m not against it either. I definitely think I can see where this could go before The Marvels. I could see it. I also could see, you know, the resolution of this being way different than we thought. And Nick, going back up the SABER because he’s trying to do a different plan of attack, get heroes involved. I don’t know. I’m not entirely sure, but I can see the theory there. I can see where we’re going, where your thought processes.

Taylor: Yeah, I think the other thing I’m thinking about in terms of blowing this out to a larger Avengers level threat is how does that play out in the timeline? Because to me, if you’re going to do that, you have to leave it at a cliffhanger, which means if you’re going to have other stuff coming out, like we know what’s on the slate, right? We know we’ve got Loki later this year, Echo, The Marvels. We’re talking about Captain America next year, like there are things planned, granted they’re moved back, but there are things planned. To me, if you’re going to leave that kind of cliffhanger, you have to have an Avengers movie next, which means in terms of timeline, not necessarily release order, which means if you’re trying to place this in timeline order, then it needs to be the furthest out right? It needs to be the furthest in the future. And what I think is interesting is people keep saying Nick was gone for years and I don’t think they’re counting the Blip. I don’t think obviously, you know, they don’t blame him for the time in the Blip because that wasn’t his choice. But his wife says you’ve been gone for years and in those years I became myself. So that to me means it’s been at least two, if not more, since the Blip. So we’re now looking at, what, 2025 at the earliest? So that’s what I mean. Like if this is like say it’s even later than that, then we would have to have something come out. Like anything that comes out between now and the next Avengers film, if it is Secret Invasion related, has to be between Endgame and this moment, if that makes sense.

Katie: You got a little muddy, but I get the gist of what you’re saying. Yeah. I don’t. I think for me, I feel like that’s an easier judgment call to make once the show is over because, I feel like I can’t quite be like, yes or no when I don’t know what three more episodes are going to entail or what nd credits because usually by episode four we start to- I’m saying usually because it’s not a confirmed thing, it’s not for sure thing, but we usually start to get one or two credits popping up at the ends of all the episodes. So I can’t go with it or against it. I see your point. We’ll have to make that call on our reactions to episode six more than anything. But since you brought her up, because there’s two more things I want to discuss, one of them being Nick’s wife. So first things first, confirmation. I’m loving this. I’m loving the next episode confirmation about questions we have. 

Taylor: I was just thinking about that too, after the episode wrapped. Like we have a question, they answer it. It’s like they’re like listening to our show.

Katie: I never have to sit here and be like, guess we’ll see maybe next episode. I like that I’m getting answers, especially to some of the ones that definitely feel like heavy and important. Like you need to know why, like you need it to move forward. So we definitely got the confirmation. Nick always knew his wife was a Skrull. Coolio. I mean, we even talked- we talked about it on the podcast. I talked about on the blog. There were like four different versions of how this could go. Unfortunately, very unfortunately, this kind of married two of them and it was the fact that he knew she was a Skrull, but she also ended up siding with Gravik.

Taylor: But what’s interesting is it doesn’t sound like she always was a militant type revolutionary Skrull. It’s him leaving her, which I totally get.

Katie: Yeah. Out of all the Skrulls, that was the biggest slap in the face for her.

Taylor: Well, and in so many ways, think about it this way. Gravik views him almost like a father figure. So that was his father figure abandoning him. That created so much rage that he created his own revolutionary forces to oppose Talos. Now, Fury’s wife, her life partner, the man she chose to spend her life with, abandoned her. Now she’s going to feel so much like Gravik. And, you know, they’re going to relate to each other’s emotions because they were abandoned by the same man, obviously with different levels of emotion there. But still the same man betrayed them both, essentially. And so I think that that is really you know, I don’t know how deep they’re going to go in with his wife and Gravik’s relationship. But if they do dive into it, I could see that being something that they bonded over was the fact that this man that they admired and loved up and left them with literally zero warning and zero care for their feelings and the people he left behind.

Katie: She also genuinely lived with him like she was married to him. That was a relationship that they had. And, you know, she even talks about, you know, I grieved you and then you came back and then you chose to leave.

Taylor: Yeah.

Katie: And I mean, even moving out of a Skrull or whatever, this whole idea of like the whole Secret Invasion thing, I mean, that’s messed up. 

Taylor: Oh, 100%. 

Katie: Think about, like, I don’t know, say, if somebody, this can going to sound weird and go into a very dark place very quick. But, you know, if you’re in a relationship with someone and say like they get kidnaped, okay? You are probably going to assume the worst when they don’t reappear like within the 48 hours that the police usually are like if they don’t come back in 48 hours, like who knows. And so like, I watch a lot of crime shows if you haven’t noticed. But, you know, you probably start to assume the worst, right? Like as weeks and everything else go on, I’m sure you’re assuming the worst. You eventually probably have to come to a conclusion that they’re not coming back. Okay. Say they come back three years later and you’re just like, oh my God, this is awesome. And then they’re just like, I’m going to disappear, goodbye. Or like, I’m going to leave the state. I don’t want to bring you with me, goodbye. That is essentially what that was. Nick came back and was like that wife thing, I don’t really know I’m just going to go up in space. She’s good. She’s fine. I’m sure it’s okay. That’s such a slap in the face, so, like, I feel for that and I understand. And like, quite honestly, even putting aside that the feelings going with that, I mean, she has a right to be angry, too. She was sitting there helping bring these Skrulls to Earth. Helping them by hooking them up with Fury or thinking she was helping by hooking them up with Fury. And what did it do? So I think it also was like a slap in the face. I mean, think about it. Have you ever been friends with somebody who, like, does all this crappy stuff and by association you’re like, oh, I really don’t want to be tied to this person. Like, that is probably how she felt, like she thought he was going to do all this great stuff a instead, what did he do? And now all the Skrulls are like, screw Fury. And she’s like, I married him. So, yeah, I don’t know. I definitely-

Taylor: Question because I have trouble telling this Skrulls apart when they’re in their natural forms. Was she the one who brought Gravik to him?

Katie: Yes. So yeah, actually, that’s a great point to kind of clarify. Just for everybody, if you didn’t pick this up, she is Varra in Skrull form, but she goes by Priscilla in human form. And so when he said Scilla, that’s him and calling her Priscilla. So that is just an FYI because I was getting after last episode when people were talking on Twitter I was so confused. I was like, who? Didn’t they say his wife is Priscilla, and everybody’s like, it’s Varra from, you know, the whole beginning of the episode. And I was like, what is happening? So she goes by a different name in human form than she does as a Skrull.

Taylor: I just, yeah, I just have a trouble telling them apart when they’re in their, like, natural form because I feel like a lot of their features are like similar and it’s hard to find those discerning features that like, can distinguish between people. So appreciate the clarification.

Katie: Well, and that’s why they’re all in some sort of human form in the show. So that we know who they all are, and that’s why they all remain in like most of their shells and everything else. But because we’re talking about this and, you know, Skrulls and everything else, let’s finish it out with the ending. Well, I guess not the ending ending, but like the semi ending with Gravik and G’iah.

Taylor: Yeah. Is she really dead?

Katie: You know, so originally I went after the episode. I was like, I need to get a shower. So, you know, you do your best thinking in the shower. So originally I’m like, of course she’s not dead. We know there’s other scenes in the trailers that explicitly-

Taylor: Trailers are a myth.

Katie: Hold on. Hold on. But I’m like, there’s, like, multiple scenes in the trailers that we haven’t seen her yet. And then I also was like, it’s Emilia Clarke. There is no way they brought her on for not even the whole series but for three episodes. I was like, no, no, no, no, no. But then, then I got a horrible thought and I was like, did someone else put on her shell? Are the different things that we haven’t seen yet, not that real G’iah and somebody else posing as G’iah, maybe even her father infiltrating or something. 

Taylor: Okay, I’m not to lie, I had the thought of someone else wearing her shell because this all goes back to being very difficult to tell the Skrulls apart. So just seeing the Skrull’s body there is not enough to tell me that was truly G’iah. We also didn’t really see her Skrull grown up very much so like-

Katie: Well, I don’t even mean when she died. I mean, like after she died, if that actually was her. Somebody is wearing her shell after. 

Taylor: Oooooh 

Katie: Yeah. Like someone’s continuing to pose as her.

Taylor: See, I was thinking what if that’s another Skrull pretending like protecting her essentially.

Katie: I mean, it could go both ways but I was thinking more he actually killed her and somebody took her shell and is using her shell.

Taylor: Question for you. Can Skrulls take other Skrulls memories the same way they do humans?

Katie: I would have to think if they hook them up to a fracking machine. Yes.

Taylor: But here’s the thing that like, I guess I wonder, you know how, I can’t think of a good example, but like, I guess I’m thinking maybe they built the technology to not be able to do it to themselves, to their own species. Right? I just feel like if you’re a proud Skrull, why would you ever see the need to frack another member of your species?

Katie: I don’t think it was- personally, I don’t think it was conscious. Like, think about this. Say we, you know, found a way to get into a dog’s brain. Do you think we would purposely build it to never get into humans? Like, you know, I mean, like it might just be the technology was built and it just happens to also work on Skrulls. They just never do it.

Taylor: Yeah, I guess that’s true.

Katie: Because I think the Skrulls don’t strike me as the type of people- I mean, us as humans, we definitely would do it. But the Skrulls don’t strike me as people who feel like they need to go out of their way to protect themselves from themselves.

Taylor: Yeah, there is a certain level of blanket trust as a species.

Katie: Yeah, they’re very trusting of one another, even though there are ones that are on opposite sides. I mean, they are definitely a community net. And I mean, of course they’re going to be they’re all refugees at this point. Like they’ve all fled their home world because it was blown by the Kree. Like they of course, are going to build together. I just don’t get the impression that they would have to go- they feel like they would have to go out of their way to do it. And then you also have people like Gravik who I’m sure would find great advantages to be able to frack another Skrull’s brain.

Taylor: Yeah. Wow. That’s kind of intense.

Katie: Well, yeah. And I mean, think about it. Look at even with G’iah did, you don’t even need to actually steal the memories. You can literally flip through them. So you don’t have to consciously take in all the memories. You can just sit at the computer and be like, let me see this guy’s life. Let me see this conversation. Let me see where he was at this point. 

Taylor: Yeah, I mean, that is such a disturbing thought that, like, it’s not really G’iah for the rest of the episode, but I like it. I think it’s such a good theory. I just hate it.

Katie: And, you know why I kind of getting there even further is because remember when we see her enter that room where all those pods are, and she definitely has that look of like, oh my God. G’iah was behind enemy lines on team Gravi up until just now. She likely understood what was happening. Like she knew if, say, they’re humans right and those are where they stored all their bodies because they’re not fracking everybody. That’s not possible. There’s too many there’s way too many Skrulls with faces that they can’t fully have been tracking every single person at all times. All the ones that are being fracked, that are constantly in that position, in that machine are high ranking people who they need to be in their brains all the time. Right? So I’m like, what if that is somebody else, a different Skrull that goes undercover or gets in there or because not everybody knows G’iah was killed or betrayed them and finds all the humans that were taken over.

Taylor: Counterpoint to that though, she didn’t know about the Super Skrulls. So she definitely doesn’t know everything.

Katie: No, I don’t disagree. I yeah, I know I don’t disagree with that, but I mean, she knows all these people are putting on shells like where are the humans?

Taylor: Right? But I think there’s a difference between conceptually understanding that they are stealing these humans lives in the sense that they’re like taking them over versus understanding in what state they’re actually keeping the humans.

Katie: I’m not sure the state’s the problem. I think it’s the mere amount. I think she doesn’t know how many are being taken over. I don’t think it’s about like how they’re being kept. I’m not really bothered. I’m not bothered by that. I mean, if I was taken over by a Skrull, keep me in stasis bro, I’d rather be in there than dead. But like, I think it’s more the amount of how many there appear to be. 

Taylor: Yeah, that’s fair. But I also think you know think about again she doesn’t know about the Super Skrull thing like there’s clearly things that Gravik didn’t trust her enough to show or didn’t feel that she, you know, even before he didn’t trust her, didn’t give her the clearance to understand. So I like your theory. I think it has merit. But I do think there are some holes.

Katie: I mean, I don’t disagree, it’s Swiss. But honestly, I don’t know. I accidentally ate some Swiss cheese earlier and I don’t like Swiss cheese, so it’s on my brain. But I mean, either way, I think there’s two ways to think here. Someone was posing as G’iah and got killed or that was really G’iah and now someone’s going to pose as her. I don’t think there’s no way she’s alive. There’s no way. I mean, she turned the Skrull form. She got shot in the chest.

Talor: Yeah. No, that whoever that was in that scene with Gravik is dead. Whether that is G’iah or someone posing as G’iah, they’re dead.

Katie: Yeah, I agree. I mean, what if somebody has been posing as G’iah this whole time? And that’s never been the real G’iah?

Taylor: Then where is the real G’iah?

Katie: Exactly.

Taylor: Oh, real questions.

Katie: I know these are what we need answers to. 

Taylor: I know. I have many a question, and I don’t want to wait seven whole days to answer them.

Katie: I know this one’s really got me like, come on I need the next episode.

Taylor: I know, I know. And then, of course, there’s the last reveal, which we’ve chatted about a little bit already, which is that, of course, Nick’s wife is working with Gravik, which is kind of I mean, remember we talked about it last episode. What is the worst betrayal? Your partner. We were talking about it in the context of him not knowing that she’s a Skrull potentially. Now we know he knows that she’s a Skrull, but he doesn’t know who she’s working for, though I do think he suspects.

Katie: I don’t even think it’s a suspicion. I think he knows. I think she was so sus. I think he knows. And honestly, that’s fine. I just want to wrap it up by saying, you know, the reason those last few seconds are important is because what is the plan? There’s clearly a plan for when Nick came home and possibly got on her trail because how could he not? And she needed to have a contingency plan to get out of there or something. And why she needed the gun and why she’s having second thoughts about the gun. Those are all the questions that need to be asked because I feel like we really talked about, you know, her already kind of just being a Skrull and being on Gravik’s team. But it’s it’s what’s coming next. That’s where I’m concerned.

Taylor: Yeah. And like, what is her role, right? Like what did they stand to gain from her still being so close to Nick and yet also at the same time being so transparently suspicious.

Katie: Yeah. Yeah. There’s definitely I don’t know. It’ll be interesting because we’ll see at least some of this play out clearly in the next episode that’s been set up very clearly for us and so I’m intrigued. I hope it’s not. I mean, she definitely seems like she’s not 100% team Gravik. So I don’t know. We’re just going to have to wait and see what this one, which I feel like we sat here saying last week too. Guess we’ll have to wait and see.

Taylor: I know. I really hope they continue this next episode. Like I think they’ve done a really good job and I know you mentioned this before of just giving us what we need to know and not making us wait two, three weeks for it. And so I really hope they continue that next episode because I have a lot of really important questions. I also am not looking forward to potentially Talos finding out his daughter is dead because that’s going to be a moment that will hurt deeply.

Katie: Yeah, but I just kind of really thought and I’m not confirming anything but the theory I want to throw out there. It’s a little wild, but like you know how they said his wife was dead?

Taylor: I was thinking the same thing.

Katie: What if she was never dead? What if G’iah had died and his wife has been posing as G’iah this whole time?

Taylor: Oh, interesting. I was thinking, what if she never died and was protecting her daughter?

Katie: Or that too. But either way, like, I’m sorry, you guys all know no body, no death. And for it to have just been thrown away like that, to kind of be like, oh, by the way, like, your mom’s dead. Like what happened between Far From Home and now? I don’t- it doesn’t sit right for me to have an offscreen character death that’s not like, like especially if that character could play an important role in the future.

Taylor: Well, especially because out of all the Skrulls, Talos and his wife are the two we probably know the best.

Katie: Well, that’s what I mean. Like, they’re still pretty vital characters. And when we’re moving into Secret Invasion to just like write her off seems very weird to me.

Taylor: I agree. I don’t think it’s that out there because it crossed my mind as well.

Katie: Okay. That makes me feel better. I mean, you know, I’m kind of queen of out there theories, but they always end up kind of coming through. So it’s like-

Taylor: I know. We’ll keep an eye on that one because we may be right about this very out there theory.

Katie: Yeah. Okay. We’re onboard. We’re on a ship we’ll sail together. 

Taylor: Yeah. All right. Well, I think that’s a wrap on Secret Invasion Episode three. This has been so far a very, very fun show. And we are, as you can tell, super excited to see how the back half keeps rolling right along. If you have not yet subscribed on your podcast platform of choice, but would like to follow our coverage of the remainder of Secret Invasion, please go ahead and give us a follow or subscribe. You can also definitely check out our blog, which has a lot of extra information, as Katie mentioned throughout the episode, we put lots of good stuff on there to help supplement our podcast episodes, so definitely check that out as well. If you’re looking for a little bit of extra info in between our episode and episode four of Secret Invasion.

Katie: Give us a follow on Twitter at SisAssembledPod and Instagram at SistersAssembled. We have our new episode and blog post and some news always going up on those platforms. So go ahead and keep up with us that way. And next week will be going full steam ahead again on episode four of Secret Invasion. So get ready for that, as Taylor said because we’re loving this show, it’s keeping us on our toes. Nobody’s safe, nobody’s trustworthy. So we’re having a lot of fun, make sure you guys are having fun with us. So watch the show, listen to us, because Marvel just blew your mind, so let’s talk about it.