Transcript

Taylor: Well, to start it off the way that Katie previewed this episode of Secret Invasion to me, Marvel, and those episode four’s man like, what is going on? This was a lot. There was quite a bit that we got right, both Katie and I, and just Katie. I’ll give her props. Her props are due, so we’ll dive into a little bit of glorifying our correctness because I will say overall Secret Invasion, we’ve done pretty well. But we’ll also dive into all the things that we think are the most important of course, with Secret Invasion episode four. So without further ado, let’s just dive right into it because I think there’s quite a bit to unpack here. 

Katie: Yeah, there’s definitely a lot to unpack. I think first things first, we just need to say while we are predicting a lot of it, I have to say we’ve been pretty accurate about quite a bit of it. And even the things I don’t know if we verbally are right about. I’ve been adding things to the blog before the episodes, which that’s enough to sit there and say, I still predicted it. It just might not be on a recording, it’s in writing still. So I do think we’ve been actually pretty on par with a lot of things, but that doesn’t take away from the shock factor I think-

Taylor: I agree.

Katie: -of watching it and actually seeing Marvel go there. I don’t know what was the more shocking part of this episode. So I think we need to just kind of get into it, quite frankly, from the start with probably the biggest thing that we’ve been talking about since the predictions, which is the fact that Rhodey is a Skrull.

Taylor: Yes and I think last week after last week, we were pretty certain, you know, obviously we’ve talked about it since the predictions we’ve been saying, you know, Rhodey is a Skrull. I think everybody has been saying that. But especially after last week, we felt very confident. We laid out, what, two or three, maybe even four new reasons just from last week’s episode alone, why it was becoming more and more obvious. And so I think, you know, after last week, we were saying it’s not if, but how and when. I certainly didn’t expect it in this particular way. I thought it was going to be maybe a little bit more shocking in the way that they revealed it. I think that it was almost a little more low-key than I was expecting. But definitely, his message of you got to kill your husband was by no means low-key. So there was a lot going on. I will give you your props. It was Rhodey on the other end of the line, Katie, so you called that last episode. Small claps for you. I’m not going to do it into the microphone, everyone to spare your ears, but let’s just acknowledge our Katie getting another one right on that one.

Katie: Yeah, well, first off, thank you, everybody. I really appreciate this.

Taylor: I would like to thank my mom. 

Katie: Yeah, I would like to thank, you know, all the listeners that- but I genuinely I think the phone call for me while it was like one of those things that if you really aren’t listening enough like when I first watched it the very first time, I didn’t hear it. As I kind of went back because I was like, I need to know. I definitely could hear it. So I felt the more I listened to it, it would get more concrete. But I also was like, maybe I’m just convincing myself the more I listen to it that it sounds more concrete. So I will say the phone call was pretty obvious to me. I agree with you on saying I thought it was a little lackluster in his reveal.

Taylor: Yeah. 

Katie: I also have to say, I guess I’m not too surprised. Just because I mean, from the get-go, every fan pretty much was like Rhodey’s suspicious, right? Like, we all agree about that. And everybody’s like, yeah, we do. So, I don’t know. I kind of think it’s one of those where they were like, you already knew it and by this point in the series, you really knew it. So it really didn’t feel like they needed to do any sort of extra reveal. I will say the only thing that really shocked me was the fact that it’s actually a female Skrull who’s impersonating Rhodey. I think that’s kind of interesting. 

Taylor: Yeah, no, I definitely thought that was interesting, also. I do want to go back though, to what you were saying about it being kind of a lackluster reveal. I think in my head they had the opportunity to say, all right, fans, we know you all know this. You’re not stupid. You’ve put the pieces together. But let me shock you again and not if but how and when. And so I think that was their opportunity to even though they really knew that we all knew to actually shock us in a new way. And so I’m not going to lie, I was a little disappointed that it was just like so like, let’s just have this conversation where, you know, we both know that I’m a Skrull and then, you know, for a second I’m not going like for a second when she said, oh, Fury got fired and he looked shocked, I thought maybe she was like, somehow talking to the real Rhodey.

Katie: So did I, actually.

Taylor: I was like, oh, maybe. And so I was like, maybe they’re going to twist this on us. And then, you know, they went back to being like, very obviously, a Skrull and fully revealing themselves at that point. And so I was like, oh, like, that was your opportunity to like, actually give me a shock factor to something that I’ve been predicting since before this show started. And I’m kind of sad that they just were like, we’re just going to lean into the fact that you already know. 

Katie: Yeah, I think too, the worst part is ideally that scene to me could have been played out if the person sits behind her. You don’t ever see the face. You don’t really ever see the person. You just hear the voice. I think the biggest problem with that is the person who plays Rhodey along with a lot of the- I’m not gonna lie, a lot of our characters have pretty distinctive voices, and so you would hear it. But I still think maybe something like that. I didn’t love that he just kind of walked in and you were like, well, that’s the reveal. And then they had like the shower scene later on where you very clearly see it. I think that could have been even that on its own would have been kind of cool. I think that would have kind of had more of an oh, we were right moment than just Rhodey walking in and kind of suddenly starting to be like, oh, you need to kill Fury, I fired him, I got him out of the way. Gravik wants this done, do it. 

Taylor: Yeah, I think if they had reversed those two scenes, I would have been less feeling like it was just this given thing that Marvel just was like, you know already. We’re not going to put any effort into making it special or, like, shocking. And like, if they had revealed it, it wouldn’t have been necessarily shocking, but it would have been the next level versus like, yeah, I’m just going to walk into a room and you immediately know that if he’s walking to see Fury’s wife, that he’s clearly an agent of Gravik’s. So it’s like, oh, like that’s how you’re going to do it? I was actually excited to see, I was excited to gasp. I was excited to be like, oh my gosh, I don’t know. And then it was very much, let me down, you know? 

Katie: Yeah, I do agree with that, that I think so far just how it was handled I think is my biggest disappointment so far of the series.

Taylor: I agree. 

Katie: Not because I don’t- I like that Rhodey is the Skrull. I think it makes sense. We’re going to in one-second touch on bigger ramifications. But I just I was kind of like, oh, I feel like this really could’ve been played up, even if the fans thought that Rhodey was a Skrull since forever. That’s fine. Let us think it. Let us have that life. But if you’re going to reveal it, make it cool. Don’t make it just kind of just oh, okay. 

Taylor: Yeah and on top of that, then, you know, I know there have been things going around that Kevin has said that Rhodey has been a Skrull in past appearances. So that is the one place where there’s still a little bit of mystery, right? It’s like-

Katie: And that’s sort of what I was getting to with the ramifications. Yep. 

Taylor: Yeah, like how long, You know, clearly. I think obviously Rhodey’s most recent appearance was The Falcon and the Winter Soldier. Obviously, they played a very small role. I don’t really remember a lot of his conversation with Sam, but, you know, in some ways, wasn’t he telling Sam to give up the shield? If I remember correctly? 

Katie: I think so. 

Taylor: So if you look at that from a Skrull perspective, now you’re taking Captain America off the board. That’s a potential threat to Gravik’s mission. So you have to and this is something we’ve touched on before. You have to look at all of Rhodey’s past interactions with a new lens and a new light and wonder when did that switch happen and when did it stop being what Rhodey wanted and instead have this underlying motivation of what Gravik wanted? Because essentially the Skrull who is inhabiting Rhodey’s life right now, it’s not what she wants. Nobody cares what she wants. No offense, but she’s in service of Gravik. She does what Gravik wants. So everything that she does is an extension of Gravik’s will, essentially.

Katie: Yeah, I think I want to go backtracking a little bit on something you were saying. I think my bigger concern here is that Kevin said it had been a couple of works. 

Taylor: Yeah. 

Katie: That he could have been a part of. I want to just put this into perspective for everybody. Before the Falcon and Winter Soldier, the past work Rhodey was in was Endgame. 

Taylor: I was thinking about that too, and my brain shut down. It didn’t want to go there.

Katie: And now I’m sitting here because I’m trying to figure out, do I need to be rewatching Endgame? Because should I be looking for something, something that seems off. Because I’m thinking, okay, Rhodey wants to kill Thanos. That makes sense. I mean, he’s on Team Avengers here. So I’m trying to figure out if he was a Skrull, what would be the endgame there? Well, the Skrulls still probably wanted their people back if they were also affected, which we have to make the assumption they were, everybody was. So I would have to think at that moment the Skrulls were still hoping to work with the humans. Although that’s years back, Gravik was already forming around. That’s what I’m trying to understand, how far back this Gravik and his whole little group go.

Taylor: Well, I mean, if you think about it, I think we’ve talked at length about why Gravik broke from trusting Fury. And that was really Fury’s response to coming back after the Blip. So you can take this kind of two ways. But I think either way, in my mind, Gravik doesn’t go past further back than Infinity War because either it starts at Infinity War where he realizes his champion, the man that he admires, is gone. He’s dead. He thinks he’s dead. Gravik steps into the void to be the new leader because he doesn’t feel like Talos can handle it without Fury. Let’s just say that’s that scenario one. Scenario two is that the Skrulls are just trying to figure their thing out this whole time during the Blip. So the period between Infinity War and Endgame, it’s not until after Endgame when Fury comes back, that Gravik begins to make his moves because now Fury has willingly abandoned them versus having the abandonment come to them. So either way, I personally don’t think that Gravik’s sect of Skrulls goes further back than Infinity War. It’s just a matter of did he start his thing to fill the void left by Fury during the Blip, or did he start it more as revenge for what he views as Fury’s abandonment after Endgame? My money’s on after Endgame just based on what has been said in the show, but I think we have to look at both of them as viable options until we know more.

Katie: I agree. And I think in this circumstance, I don’t think Rhodey was different in Endgame.

Taylor: I agree. 

Katie: I want to throw that out there. One, he had a different personal stake in this than just the people of the Skrulls. I mean, the Avengers lost their team, lost people they were- not that people didn’t lose families and things such, I don’t want to throw that completely out the window either. But the Avengers had the capability of doing something about it, and that’s the difference. Like every normal day, human beings such as Taylor and I would have just had to accept what happened in the Snap. And after a couple of months or a couple of years, just figure out our friends, our family, whoever went to be dead. We don’t have the means to do what they were able to do. We don’t have the brain of Tony Stark. I mean, we don’t have the technology that they even touch on. So it was definitely a little different. And so I think Rhodey had a different personal stake. I also it sits really funky for me to think that Rhodey missed his best friend’s funeral.

Taylor: Yeah, I was thinking about that, too. 

Katie: Yeah, I think that would be a really ill-done way of doing that if Marvel kind of was like, oh, yeah, he’s been a Skrull this long. I don’t like that. I think that would be a really bad choice. But on top of all of this, it poses the question again and again and again that we’ve been asking ourselves since phase four, and it’s who was snapped, who wasn’t? Because it really that information puts a lot into perspective on how we are supposed to think about certain characters, right? For all we know, Gravik could have been snapped, we have no clue. And so that goes back to the second half of what you were saying then about the different scenarios of when Gravik kind of started his group of revolutionary Skrulls and all of that. Well, we don’t know who out of all the Skrulls were snapped, who weren’t here, who came back. We don’t know any of that information. And it’s interesting because that is five years of story that we either need to know that’s there or it’s not. 

Taylor: Yeah, no, that’s very true. I didn’t even think about it from the perspective of who was even there from the Skrull side to even be able to put these things in motion. I mean, based on the conversations, I’m going to take an educated guess and say that Gravik wasn’t Snapped. But to your point, we don’t have any sort of confirmation of that, so we can’t tell say. 

Katie: Well, was Talos? Do we know? 

Taylor: I don’t think so, because remember, he brought in all the people. 

Katie: I don’t think so either. I don’t think G’iah was. We know Priscilla wasn’t. So we know at least four of the major Skrull players weren’t. But that’s not to say otherwise for some of the other hundreds of Skrulls, millions of Skrulls that are on the earth. 

Taylor: Yeah, no, totally. It’s definitely a valid question. I honestly don’t think we’re going to get an answer to it, but I wish we would.

Katie: I agree. I think that and like I said before, that has been our biggest question since Phase Four started. And I forgot we’re totally in Phase Five. So but you know, that even shows even longer. I mean, it’s been over two years and I think we’re all sitting here trying to really understand what are the implications. We know Bucky was Snapped, we know Sam was Snapped. So everything we saw on that show, we knew they lost five years of their lives. We know that and we can put that into perspective. Wanda, another great example. But I feel as we start to move away from some of these characters, which is okay, that’s totally fine, but you start to have to wonder, was Kamala?

Taylor: Yeah.

Katie: You know, was Moonknight? We don’t know.

Talor: Yeah, no, that’s also like a side note on Moonknight, would he even know like, if he was Snapped? 

Katie: No, no, he wouldn’t.

Taylor: Between the three of them, they could easily lose five years and you, like, they wouldn’t even know. 

Katie: No poor, Steven, because he clearly. No, he would not know. 

Taylor: I know. I mean, not to mention Mark, who doesn’t even know that Jake is out there. So there’s that. 

Katie: Yeah, they don’t even know they have a third personality yet, so.

Taylor: Anyway, bringing it back. But that was clearly like a big, big part of this episode is something that I think we’ve been working up to for a while. And before we get to the other big part, I think this segways pretty naturally into the events that lead to the other big thing in this episode, which of course Talos and his demise, which is another one that Katie called. I’m not going to lie, you know, I was thinking about it when he had that conversation at the beginning of the episode with G’iah because it did feel like she clearly disagreed with him, obviously. He has his own perspective on how to deal with humans, but I could also tell that she was so disappointed in his lack of plan because realistically, he had no plan, right? I think he has gotten so complacent and trusting in Fury that he doesn’t feel like he needs to go anywhere else, and that’s why he was quite frankly dethroned is the wrong word because it’s not a throne. But you all get what I’m trying to say here by Gravik because Gravik was understanding of the Skrulls who felt like they needed to do something and take an active role in their placement in this galaxy. And he’s way too passive. Talos is way too passive. And so in that conversation, you have this sense that G’iah was like, you don’t understand, you’re not listening to your people. And then obviously they have that fight. And there was a part of me that was like, oh no. But then I was like, no, but she’s on his side. We had always theorized that that was their turning point. That was the thing that got her to go from Gravik’s side to her father’s side. So I kind of dismissed it because I was like, no, she’s on the side, there’s no need to do it now. And then they did it anyway. 

Katie: You know, I didn’t think for a second when they had the argument, it was when I saw the or when we saw the president get off the plane. And I knew from the trailers those scenes, and I went, oh, no, no, no, because I knew where this was going, at least in that realm. The other ways. I mean, I think there’s something else we’ll talk about momentarily that we also knew was coming. We talked about it last episode as well, but otherwise, I didn’t know what the scene was going to play out in. I didn’t know how it was going to happen. So let’s just break to it. As Taylor said, Talos, bites the dust, is murdered.

Taylor: You’re so gentle in your delivery, Katelyn. It’s truly so moving in the way that you share this information with such empathy. 

Katie: You know, I could be graphic about it. I won’t be. He just, you know, meets his demise. We all saw it coming, I think. I mean, I don’t know if we all knew it was going to happen at this moment. I think, though, this is just as personal for Talos as it is for Fury. Gravik looked up to Talos just as much as they look up to Fury. And they both disappointed him. And I actually have to think almost arguably maybe Talos disappointed him more because Talos is a Skrull at the end of the day. And that’s the one thing that sets him apart from Fury he was supposed to take care of their people and he didn’t. Fury decided to. Talos, that was never a decision. He should have taken care of them. When he became General, his responsibility was all of the Skrulls. And so I think almost arguably there’s more disappointment in Talos, especially because Gravik looks at him as betraying the Skrulls because he so blindly follows Fury, who kind of gave up on them. And so I definitely think it was interesting. I thought it was very fitting to have Gravik be the person to take Talos’ life. I’m not going to lie. 

Taylor: Yeah, I mean, it’s literally a changing of the guard, right? You’re going from one general to the newly appointed general. I think, though, you know, you had theorized and I think, you know, I agree that Talos’ death could be a catalyst for G’iah and coming over to the good side, I think that part of it is wrong in the sense that this is not her catalyst for breaking from Gravik. We already saw that happen and we’ll get to her resurrection, I’m sure, later in the episode. But it will still push her because obviously, she was having doubts about her dad, too. Like, I don’t think she was particularly happy with either option. She just felt Gravik was the lesser of two evils, essentially. Not really, but, you know, I guess if that’s your perspective, that’s fine. But, you know, I think this is just going to push her further into working with Fury and aligning with him to honor her father because also she’s going to want revenge on Gravik. The man killed her father. Like Gravik probably would have survived that gunshot. But there’s obviously no way he was going to survive being stabbed. 

Katie: You mean Talos? 

Taylor: Who did I say?

Katie: Gravik.

Taylor: I’m sorry. Talos would have survived the gunshot, but obviously, Gravik stabbing him was not something he was going to survive, especially in the state that he was in. So you can’t even argue that, oh, Talos was already dying and all Gravik did was speed it up. I truly believe he could have survived that. So, yeah, I think that that’s going to be a really big thing for G’iah. She’s now an orphan and Gravik killed both of her parents, essentially. So, you know, I’d be pretty annoyed, too.

Katie: Yeah, it definitely, I know the scene. We’re all going to be thinking of and we know it’s going to be the beginning of the next episode with G’iah over a body. And we all saw it. I mean, that’s why I made the assumption from the very get-go that Talos was going to die. So we’re all expecting in episode five, we know it’s going to come. I am just upset because for once I wanted a father and a child to get along and to be able to, like, mend a relationship. And I think it’s really going to rip her apart to know that the last few things she said to him were pretty much that he’s delusional and that he doesn’t know what’s going on. And he’s and this is me paraphrasing her words in this part, but essentially he’s an idiot. He doesn’t truly understand the severity of the situation. And I will say, I mean, even that conversation, I was like, Talos, you really not making much of a case for yourself. I see what you’re trying to do, but do you really think that I mean, come on, we’re all humans. Unless there are some Skrulls out there, but we’re all humans. Let’s be honest. If an alien race just was like, by the way, we have been infiltrating the earth and some of us caused a bunch of terrorist attacks that killed a bunch of people because we wanted to take over the Earth. But some of us stopped that group, we’re the good guys, y’all should love us now and let us just continue living here. Do you really think we’re all going to be sitting here all like, oh joy, yeah, let’s do it? Like, no. 

Taylor: Yeah, no, I definitely agree. He came across as very naive and overly optimistic. And I too, like when G’iah was like, dude, are you serious right now? You have to think too, and one of the things that I was really thinking about, especially when she said, well, that’s not the person I’ve grown to be, is that she grew up on Earth. So she, from a very young age, has seen humans, humans nature, whereas Talos views them through essentially the lens of Fury, which is also interesting because I think Fury has a very cynical view. So I’m not really sure how Talos got this rose-colored view of humanity and our goodness. 

Katie: The humans are like so amazing and they’re great. I don’t know. I don’t know. 

Taylor: I mean, I can’t think that any I mean, he was in Far From Home. He literally saw Mysterio try to shoot a 15-year-old boy in the head because his glasses got the acronym of BARF. Like, that’s very human in the sense that, stupid stuff escalating to that kind of level is unfortunately human nature. But how can Talos take that to be like these humans, they’re so lovely. They’re going to give us a sanctuary where we can be ourselves. Like, dude, that flies in the face of reality. And so when G’iah was saying that, I was like, I want you to get along with your dad. I really do. But like, he’s out here making zero sense, and you’re out here being a pragmatic woman who grew up on Earth and has seen what these humans are capable of. I got to go with the pragmatists on this one because Talos is not helping his case, to your point.

Katie: And think about this, you just like jogged something that I don’t think I thought about, but genuinely think about. G’iah lived through everything we’ve seen in the MCU. So when New York happened, even before that, anything Tony Stark was doing that was on the news when Thor arrived because a god just fell from the sky, when Captain America came out of the ice. I mean, all of these are things she was living through, growing up through, on top of them, you know, those are just the subtle things. SHIELD falls. I mean, then aliens start coming from all over the freaking place that aren’t the Skrulls, but other aliens. There was a lot that happened that to anybody is also traumatic in their own way. But she lived through all that growing up. But I mean, I guess let’s take a step back. Anybody who’s been growing up in the past 30 years there’s been some real chaotic crap going on. 

Taylor: So in many ways, are we projecting our own experience on G’iah? Perhaps. 

Katie: Maybe, it might be there.

Taylor: But that’s not this type of show. So we’re going to ignore our own psychoanalysis and go back into the show.

Katie: Yeah, but regardless, I mean, she saw arguably some of the worst of humanity in those moments. We also have not, and I, I really I know I’m stuck on this, but I really would love a show following Hawkeye during the Snap. Because he was the only one actually active doing things. Arguably not great things. I mean, they were criminals so it walks a line.

Taylor: Well, Nat was doing her thing with the peeps. 

Katie: Yeah, but he, I mean, all the Avengers who were left still, you know, talking to each other, reporting back, going out. But he was really he was, you know, disengaged from all of them. He was doing a whole different thing. But he was running around in that crime part and that’s what I want to understand, too. If G’iah wasn’t snapped, which my assumption, she wasn’t. Then she could have seen even worse things from humanity in five years where half the population disappeared. 

Taylor: Yeah, I mean, that’s totally true. And then you have to wonder, like, you have to assume Talos was there, too. Maybe not with her, because we don’t know when their rift started, but he lived through it. So how can you look at humanity at arguably its worst moment and be like, yes, these people, they will continue to help me with a smile on your face and a genuine belief? It’s just it flies in the face of like logic. And I don’t I mean, more power to him for being an eternal optimist, but as someone, I consider myself a realist. So G’iah started talking and I was like, oh, someone who actually sees things for how they are is going to start speaking now. Good, good, good. That makes more sense. 

Katie: Yeah, it definitely was an interesting conversation, but it breaks my heart knowing that unfortunately, it wasn’t a just regular conversation that she ended off with her dad.

Taylor: Yeah. 

Katie: And so I’m not ready for what’s to come next in that department. Once again, I’m not shocked that they killed Talos off. I also don’t think I was expecting it to be right after he and Fury made up because I didn’t expect there to be a little squabble in the middle. So I think, you know, getting that bromance back together last episode just to literally see Fury watch him get murdered, and then on top of that, we’re going to smoothly go right into the next thing. Fury now knows Gravik has Extremis. The worst part, ironically, is Fury doesn’t know Gravik has the Groot arms because he didn’t see that.

Taylor: Oh yeah.

Katie: But he knows he has Extremis and Fury was around during Extremis. 

Taylor: Yeah. Was Fury in Iron Man Three? 

Katie: No, I believe he was in two because that’s when Black Widow came in.

Taylor: And the end of one, right?

Katie: But I don’t think he was in three. 

Tayor: Okay. 

Katie: Regardless, Tony was already part of the Avengers by then because we were dealing with the effects of New York. 

Taylor: No, totally. I got you on that one. I just couldn’t remember which ones Fury was actually in the film.

Katie: Two. 

Taylor: Okay. And I think one. Wasn’t he in the end credit of one?

Katie: Yeah. 

Taylor: Okay. 

Kaite: But he knows Extremis and I think what leaves me sitting here really unsure about the next two episodes is the look on Fury’s face. I’ve never seen fear, terror, shock, maybe possibly a form of betrayal. I’ve never seen those looks on Fury’s face, but man, did he face crack when he saw that he had Extremis.

Taylor: Yeah, I actually think his face showed more emotion at this moment than when he was being dusted. Like when he was being dusted, he was like, oh, man, let me whip out the pager. But like in this moment he was like, that dude’s face just knitted itself back together after I blew a hole through it. Question though, I just had a thought because of Extremis and, like, maybe it’s not possible because he wasn’t on the compound, but I was going to put it out there. We saw how G’iah resurrected herself by preparing herself with the Extremis because she knew that Gravik would come after her.

Katie: Which was so smart. 

Taylor: I know I love a girl who plans. My girl was like, he’s going to kill me. I’m going to be prepared to die and come back to life.

Katie: And did we not say that would have been a waste to pull Emilia Clarke into a series for three episodes, not even the whole thing? So I love that. That made me feel good. 

Taylor: Yes, I totally agree. My question though, is, is there a world in which her father also has Extremis? 

Katie: I don’t think so. 

Taylor: I don’t think so either. But it did pop into my head, so I wanted to put that out there as an option. 

Katie: So unfortunately, as much as I would like to say that Talos didn’t actually just die, the worst part is we see that the only way that they’ve been successful is they have that chamber that they put them in, almost like Cap. You have the serum, but then you need the extra, you need the chamber and everything to make the transformation happen. And so we know that Talos was never there. And so no, but I definitely, I think we knew this was coming. I mean, in the last episode, we got the first confirmation. In this episode, we saw Gravik now confirmed with the Groot arms, which we knew in the trailer. So we know he has two so far. We now know G’iah has Extremis, so we know there are two Super Skrulls confirmed. I’m getting to the point now, which we started talking about in the last episode, is how are we wrapping this up? Because we are again, we are climbing a hill still that’s very steep. We’re on a rollercoaster and I’m halfway only up to the top. I’m not seeing the summit yet and this is leading me and I’m not nervous though, because this is leading me more confidently to say, I think this is going to lead into something else as I’m seeing how the show is unfolding. 

Taylor: I wish I shared your confidence, but I’m going to bring back my argument from the last episode that they’ve done this to us before. Not where we thought they were setting up something bigger, but where we’ve been completing episode four and then like, how are they going to wrap this up in two episodes? So as much as I want, trust me, I want to believe that they are going to set up something bigger because it has bothered me since I did my initial research for this episode the lack of scale of Secret Invasion, but I just and I don’t think it’s not possible, but I think we cannot get rid of the possibility quite yet that they’re going to do something annoying.

Katie: I see your point. My only thing is, quite frankly, I love Nick Fury putting it all on the record, but my guy’s not taking down the Skrulls by himself. 

Taylor: Well, not now that Talos is gone for sure. 

Katie: Right. And now that they’re Super Skrulls because they single-handedly decide to create the Super Skrulls because of the Avengers, because of people who were enhanced, who they knew would come after them. So I just I’m sorry. I love Nick, but have we genuinely ever seen him be able to take down an enhanced individual? 

Taylor: No. 

Katie: Right. And why? Because that’s not Nick’s forte. At the end of the day, he’s a spy. He was the Director of SHIELD. He’s great at pulling all sorts of tricks out of him. But at the end of the day, what did even in this flashback, Priscilla was saying, I have a feeling you were the one behind pulling together that team because that’s what Nick does. He can get everybody into the right place, but he doesn’t fight that final battle. I’m sorry. So that is my biggest thing. Nick is not beating the Skrulls. There would have to be something pretty massive that happens. And so we either are going to get some sort of Avenger, enhanced individual, Inhuman, something in this show, or this needs to be continued into something else.

Taylor: Do you want to know something really awful that just popped into my head? 

Katie: No. 

Taylor: Well, I’m glad because I’m going to tell you anyway. 

Katie: I know. 

Taylor: So we love a good circular moment, but not when the circular moment is death. Because what brought the original Avengers together? The death of Phil Coulson. What could potentially bring the next round of Avengers together? The death of Mr. Nick Fury himself.

Katie: Okay. I mean, I’m not against that. 

Taylor: Look, I think it has merit or I wouldn’t have said it except for, like, my Talos thing, but I just was wishful thinking. But I think it has merit. I just don’t want Nick Fury to die. 

Katie: No, I think my only semi-counterargument to this, I think maybe it’s not even a counterargument. Maybe it’s just my thought process coming out. But you know, the Avengers have already been pulled together. Were they working as a team? No, not at all. Not at all. But they were already on a helicarrier together. Were they all under the impression there was about to be an invasion? No, half of them were not there for that reason. But Coulson was there. He was talking to them, interacting with them. Fury used his death, which then, you know, Agents of SHIELD just said ‘what death?’. But Fury used his death to drive them, right? He kind of put that together. Even if Coulson had died. I don’t know if that was in itself the point more than Fury being like he died believing in you guys and he did the whole thing with the cards, the Captain America cards that really wasn’t real, but he planted it. So my thought process is they all felt that they had met Coulson. Some of them had a bigger connection, like Thor, who had already met him prior, Nat, Clint, all of them. And so there was a very semi-personal vendetta there. But then Fury made sure it became personal. Versus now I’m thinking, okay, we have to think about the Avengers who know Nick. Plus finding out he dies, plus having that push because like I said, I don’t know if the original Avengers would have taken Coulson’s death alone as the reason to fight and join together. They needed the last push from Fury and so if there’s not an additional push, I don’t know if I could see Fury’s death-. You know who has the connection to him anymore? Clint? He’s the only one. 

Taylor: Carol. Sam. 

Katie: But. But. Okay, so, okay. Sam, no. 

Taylor: Yes. Winter Soldier.

Katie: Yeah, but I wouldn’t say that’s a very deep connection. Carol and Clint arguably, I think are the best two candidates we can throw Sam on as a 0.5. But that’s three, right? You know, like, who are the rest of them who genuinely, I mean, Nick’s been gone when all these new heroes have been coming onto the board. Nick is not here. Maybe Monica, but we don’t know if The Marvels come before that or before this, or after this. 

Taylor: She knew him as a little girl, though. 

Katie: Yeah, but that’s not to say anything. 

Taylor: But I’m saying if she knew him as a little kid.

Katie: I know a lot of people as a little girl, but that doesn’t mean that necessarily their death would make me. 

Taylor: I understand that. But they also work in the same like intelligence. So like I would imagine that they have- I’m not saying they’re best friends, but I would imagine he would have kept tabs on her and she would have kept tabs on him because that’s someone her mom knew. Her mom probably respected like there was a connection there. And look, maybe if you want someone to kind of stir the pot and use Nick’s death as a catalyst, maybe it’s Rhodey coming back from wherever he is as a Skrull because he feels partially responsible that he was taken over as a Skrull and his Skrull alterego helped usher this in. You never know. I’m just saying I could see a world where Nick Fury doesn’t make it out alive. 

Katie: I can agree with that. I just don’t know if I agree with your second part about it being the reason the Avengers form together. 

Taylor: I just like a good I like a good parallel, and I think it could be an interesting one if two partners die to initiate the Avengers in their first iteration and then initiate them again in their second.

Katie: Yeah, I just think unfortunately right now the parallel won’t work. I don’t think we have the right foundation for it. We don’t have a team to even start to motivate. So I think, you know, I don’t know if the parallel would work yet. We’ll have to see. I’m not against running out that theory that Fury won’t make it out. I’m not. I’m pretty sure we talked about that in the predictions, the possibility of that happening. I just think in the long run, unless some enhanced individual shows up to help Fury, I really don’t know what else we’re going to be able to do on this show. Fury does not have the means to stop the Skrulls, especially Super Skrulls even if Sonya comes into the game with her MI6 agents and everything, they don’t have the means. I mean, look at how only a few Skrulls went against the presidential brigade and did the damage they did, and at the end of the day, half of the damage was killing Talos was enough for them. Even though they didn’t get the president, cool. They wiped out 90% of the brigade and killed Talos in the meantime. And that’s only a portion of them, and that’s only with the one Super Skrull that we visibly saw. And he barely used the power. 

Taylor: I mean, they’re definitely a force to be reckoned with. I think, you know, Katie and I talked about this before, even before I got to see the episode. Obviously, the name that comes to mind is Quake because of her ties to the Secret Avengers. 

Katie: Secret Warriors. 

Taylor: Secret Warriors, sorry, Secret Avengers is something different. Why do they have so many names that are so close? 

Katie: I don’t know, but you can’t do any of them, so.

Taylor: I know I can’t do names to begin with. And so then they’re like Secret Avengers, Secret Warriors. I’m sure there’s something else Warriors. And then there are seven different kinds of Avengers teams, and it’s just like, how am I supposed to keep this all straight? But anyway, knowing, you know, her relationship to Fury in that they’re both, you know, he starts the Secret Warriors she’s obviously a part and then being an Agent of SHIELD, Katie and I had a nice discussion earlier today about whether or not Agents of SHIELD is 616. I personally just thought of a theory about what could be the Nexus moment, that kind of split it off from 616. But I’m going to leave that for another day. Either way, it would bring back a familiar face that doesn’t necessarily have to have all that backstory from Agents of SHIELD. She could they could be the same one and this could be the confirmation that, hey, you know, all that stuff that you saw there was 616. I personally don’t subscribe to that, just based on everything that happened in the show. But the alternative is that she comes in, she’s a new version of Quake, but we kind of have her background now. We know a little bit more about her because of what we saw on Agents of SHIELD. So again, a familiar face. I would love to see it. I think she’s a really cool character and I love her arc in the show. So that’s who I hope we see. I also just think if you look at the Avengers roster right, or I wouldn’t even call it an Avengers roster, we don’t even know who would make it at this stage. But the list of enhanced individuals that we’ve been following, does not make sense for anyone to be engaged. Like I don’t see any of them- one knowing this is even happening. They don’t have the contacts in the government. The only one who could even find out this information, in my opinion, is Clint and he doesn’t care. And like who else is going to do maybe Sam, you know, but Sam, we all know, is coming into action after this all happens because of the presidential change. So it takes the two people off the board, well, Sam’s movie takes him off the board, and then Clint and his show really take him off the board. Takes the two people off the board who I think we’re most likely to actually come to Fury’s aid so Quake is it. That’s my personal want but also my theory.

Katie: Yeah, I think kind of I mean everybody’s been talking about Quake since the beginning. I think at the end of the day it’s the right time if they’re going to do it, I don’t know where else they would naturally ease her into the storyline than come to Fury’s defense. 

Taylor: And while they’re at it they might as well bring Yo Yo.

Katie: Yeah, but in the nicest of ways, I was just going to say, you know, I’m not even sure if that’s enough, depending on how many enhanced individuals or I should say now, Super Skrulls that Gravik ends up making. He’s clearly not only has he been successful twice, G’iah has been successful, although he doesn’t know that.

Taylor: I was going to say it’ll be interesting to see what happens when he finds out she’s alive because he very clearly told his right-hand man, no, I took care of that.

Katie: Right. 

Taylor: So he has no reason to believe that she’s alive. 

Katie: Right. So I was just about to, you kind of said that in parallel. I was just about to say, you know, that’s the only chess piece I think Fury has that Gravik hasn’t already beaten five moves from now. You know, so I don’t know, I think and I’ve said this before, ideally, I think this turns into something bigger because, quite frankly, Super Skrulls change the game. And what did Fury even say back in Avengers? You know, the threats are coming from up there. And at this point, we have to remember, so did the Skrulls. And maybe they weren’t the world’s, I mean, they were a threat, but maybe they weren’t acting as a threat until now, and at this point, they’re not friendly, most of them that we’re running into anymore and they’re becoming enhanced. So when does it become the time to not just have people like Quake come in, but start having some of our more powerful heroes start coming up and swinging? 

Taylor: Well, the real question and I know this question is-

Katie: Say it. 

Taylor: -one we ask all the time, but where the heck is Carol? 

Taylor: Yeah, say it. No, and that’s a fair point. And I think, too, what I think I’m a little frustrated about and I said this from the start, was I wasn’t sure why Fury seemed to get most of the blame for the Skrulls not having a home when Carol just as much made the promise and she went MIA for most of the years and listen defend our universe or whatever you’re doing out there. But you’re not defending Earth. And I get it. She was like, oh, well, Earth has other heroes. Well, you brought and kept one of the biggest threats on Earth all these years, and you said, Fury, you got it. Peace. 

Taylor: Yeah. I mean, I know you mentioned in the past like, oh, maybe they just don’t want to go against Carol because they’ve seen what she’s capable of so Fury became the scapegoat because he’s human and he can be taken out. But Carol, girl, you came back for Thanos, this is arguably just as bad. 

Katie: Well, and now they’re enhanced. And I think that’s the big point is putting aside Fury, they’ve now made themselves, I don’t want to say they’re completely even with Carol, but they’ve made themselves pretty close.

Taylor: They’ve closed the gap for sure and I really like what you were saying, too, about the fact that she didn’t bring them here in the sense that she wasn’t like, hey, guys, I know a place. But she did bring them here in the sense that they followed her here and she and Fury allowed them to stay. And so this is as much on her as it is on him. Now, this comes back to the conversation we’ve had like four times about when does The Marvels take place. What is she doing right now? But it is to your point, it’s very frustrating because we conveniently like to forget that Carol Danvers is on the board when it makes sense for the story. She comes in, she whoops some Thanos booty, but then she goes away when a storyline that is a direct- this show is a sequel to her movie, and yet she’s not in it. And I just it’s frustrating because you cannot have a character like this that you just pick and choose when you want to include her, especially when there’s a storyline that is a direct sequel to her own movie. 

Katie: And let’s just put this on the board as well. Depending on when The Marvels takes place, Carol’s on Earth. 

Taylor: Oh yeah, depending on when Ms. Marvel takes place, she’s on Earth. 

Katie: But that’s what I mean. And that is a direct into The Marvels. 

Taylor: Yeah. 

Katie: So depending on when all that takes place, Carol is literally on earth. 

Taylor: But, okay, I don’t want to go, I know we crap on Carol Danvers all the time. I want to say too, Fury owns some of this also.

Katie: I agree. 

Taylor: How many times have we talked about why wasn’t she called during the Avengers? He had that pager for 30 years, and it wasn’t until he was crumbling to ash that he was finally like, I think it might be time to call. Very stubborn man, that one. But Fury, I think it’s time, nobody knows them, the Skrulls as well as you do, except for Carol Danvers. Now you’ve lost your biggest ally within the Skrulls. He’s dead. You need to call her. You’re not completely alone. You have a very super being who can be here very quickly. And who the Skrulls, rightfully so, are probably scared of. I would think Carol Danvers is the only person that Gravik is really worried about, especially now that they have Super Skrulls. I think he had a plan for the rest of the Avengers, but I don’t think any plan can prepare you for Carol Danvers and her level of power. So yeah, bring her in and immediately either Gravik falls in line or you blast his dang head off and I’d like to see him come back from that one with the Extremis.

Katie: You know, go off because you’re right. You’re right. And so I don’t know. It’s going to be an interesting last two episodes. And now that we got a little heated, I’m going to take it back. I’m going to take the burner back to two instead of the eight we were just at. And I just want to talk about Fury and Priscilla’s conversation. Because, while I think in the grand scheme of everything we’ve talked about in this episode, in this relatively short answer we talked about last week being short, this one was shorter. So, you know, this kind of fell behind because it wasn’t the biggest thing, but it’s still good to talk about. And, you know, first things first, I expected her not to be able to kill him.

Taylor: Yeah, that’s not surprising.

Katie: But I have to say, you know, the rest of the conversation had me thrown off because I don’t know if I was feeling upset for her, feeling upset for Fury. I mean, maybe I was not understanding the whole conversation, I don’t know. But like, I felt that there were moments where he pretty much was saying, I only liked you because you are this woman and I wouldn’t have liked you as a Skrull. But then when she asked him at the very end, he’s kind of like, well, I guess we would never know if I would have liked you for really being you, because you never were. And I’m also sitting here and trying to figure out because he knew she was a Skrull. So I don’t know. It felt really round circle, kind of felt like the whole relationship was semi fake on her part. Like felt as if she purposely got into a marriage with him off of a plan almost. I don’t know. All I know is there’s a level of caring that they didn’t want to kill each other. But I mean, they even said it like, do we renew our vows or do we get divorced right now? No one knows because I don’t even know. I did not understand what’s going on. 

Taylor: Yeah, I’m glad you brought this up, because I also was very confused. Like, to me, I was expecting it to be this, like, cut and dry, especially when he launched into his little speech about how much he like, you know, marrying her was the biggest thing he ever allowed himself to be manipulated by and like, all this stuff. And I was like, you know what? Fair, you thought she was your wife, and instead she’s working for the guy who’s trying to kill you. Your emotions are very valid. But then, to your point, she was talking about how she took over this woman’s life and like he clearly knew she was a Skrull even when they met in that booth in, was that 95 or 98? 98 or 97? Anyway, in the late nineties years. So when they met in that booth in the late nineties, he clearly knew who she was. He knew she was a Skrull but I don’t understand like why she felt like she had to be Priscilla the whole time if her husband knew who she really was. Was she saying, if I didn’t have my shell on, would you still love me? Because to me and this may be oversimplifying things, but you can still have your own personality within the shell. 

Katie: See, that’s where I think, that’s what I think her point was, was she didn’t just take up the shell, she took up Priscilla’s life. Because she said, you know, she saw her every day and she made it three promises. One of them was continuing to be the daughter to her parents. So Priscilla, the real Priscilla, her parents never knew that she died because Varra was playing Priscilla. And so I wonder if she seamlessly just became her over that time because she felt that was the best way to keep her promises was to not be Varra and to be Priscilla instead. And so I think that was kind of her point that at the end was, would you have wanted me if I was me? And he’s saying, well, I don’t know and we never will because he married Priscilla. He married the version of her who was Priscilla and who she became when taking up that shell versus who Varra herself was.

Taylor: Yeah. No that that makes a lot of sense. And that actually jogged in me, when he goes back to her that first time and he says something about what did you do while I was gone? And she says, I became me, that adds that layer where you’re now seeing Varra come through the veneer of Priscilla and she’s so that actually that makes a lot of sense because that recontextualizes that whole response from her.

Katie: Right. So I think that was also part of what the whole conversation was, was Fury feels like he honestly almost fell in love with somebody who is fake. And that’s why he was also saying the manipulation because he knew she was not actually Priscilla, but he fell for Priscilla. And so at the end of the day, she was still Varra, but she hid her true self until Fury was no longer around. And then why did she need to hide anymore? She didn’t need to keep putting on the Priscilla act. I mean, I’m sure she went about life. I mean, if Priscilla’s parents are still alive, I’m sure she still kept the act up there, but she didn’t need to do the act 24 seven. Fury was gone. 

Taylor: Yeah. It’s also got to be interesting for him because there’s that whole cognitive dissonance level of it where he’s like, logically, I know your to your point, like you’re not Priscilla because I know you’re a Skrull inhabiting this woman’s life, but you’re acting so much like her that I don’t know where she ends and you begin or vice versa. And so when she asks him that, when Priscilla slash Varra asked him that question at the end, to your point, he’s like, oh, I don’t actually know, because the person I fell in love with, I don’t know even who that is, because it’s not really Priscilla and it’s not really Varra. It’s a little bit of both and I don’t know even who you are. 

Katie: Yeah. So it was definitely a deep conversation. It was a deep moment. I mean, I did not expect to be watching that. It definitely came out of left field, especially in the midst because it was it was that middle lull between two really big waves of water. So I feel like it was just it was really well done. I really enjoyed it. I just was really shocked by it, quite frankly, Do I think we’ll see her again? I don’t know. I mean, she was supposed to kill Fury. She clearly didn’t. And on top of her not killing him, he interfered with getting the president. So that’s not going to seem to age very well for her and her alliance with Gravik, in my opinion.

Taylor: I agree. I think she has to put on a new shell and run and get as far away from there as possible. That’s her only real recourse at this point, because I think it’s interesting with the Skrulls that they can put on a new shell and their people won’t even recognize them. It’s only when they wear the same shells or obviously their natural form that they’re able to recognize one another. So to me she can just pull a good old Skrull, changearoo and just become a different person and just bloop right on out.

Katie: And flee to another distant country far away from Gravik.

Taylor: Yeah and pray that Nick takes him out. That’s really it. All right, well, I think that is it for Secret Invasion episode four. It was a good one. It’s left us with just as many questions as we have answers yet again. But we’ve got two more episodes to figure it out. So if you are going to stick around with us or you’re hoping to stick around with us for these last two episodes, please remember to subscribe or follow on your podcast platform of choice if you haven’t already. Also, please make sure to check out our blog where we will have extra information and extra predictions like Katie mentioned earlier in the show. You can also check out our home page and our Amazon affiliate links, if you’d like to support our show, we would be super, super grateful. 

Katie: Follow us on Twitter at SisAssembledPod, and you can also follow us on Instagram and Threads at SistersAssembled so you can keep up with everything the show is doing when new episodes are out, new blog post, everything you need to know. And we continue. We only have two more episodes left of Secret Invasion, so we are moving steadily, before you know it to episode five. We’re really, we’re getting there, guys. Something big’s coming so get ready, because Marvel just blew your mind, so let’s talk about it.