Transcript

Taylor: Well, listeners. We are now almost done with Secret Invasion and I have to say, Episode Five, did not pause. It hit you from every angle. I liked how all of the different storylines and plotlines are starting to come together. I think I can actually see for the first time a true ending to this show and how they’re going to actually wrap it up in one episode. And I think it’s time to get into it because I have a lot to say and I know for a fact, like always, Katie does too. So let’s get into it.

Katie: What? I have a lot to say. I’ve never heard about that.

Taylor: No, you’re so quiet and shy. I don’t even.

Katie: I know you just carry the podcast, don’t you? I mean, do you even conversate with anyone? Like, I don’t know.

Taylor: Most of the time I feel like I’m talking to myself.

Katie: I’m sorry. I’m going to have to fix that.

Taylor: You really are. I’m going to need you to pull your weight, buddy.

Katie: All right. All right. I’ll start today. No, we all know we’re not being serious by any means. I have to agree with the biggest point. I think in my opinion that you just made and I could actually see an ending. I definitely didn’t going into this episode and I think I was very verbal about that last episode. I was verbal about that on the blog post as well, and now I feel a lot more confident. But I have to say, I wouldn’t have felt that way if we didn’t go the direction we did with Gravik’s character.

Taylor: I agree.

Katie: And so I think that should be really the first thing I want us to touch on because if Gravik wasn’t so volatile, I genuinely don’t know if I would say that Fury would be able to, you know, accomplish beating him.

Taylor: Yeah, I think when we saw Gravik for the first time in this show and really up until the last episode when he killed Talos, I think he’s been very methodical. He’s been very strategic, always a step ahead of Fury. He had his plan and he was executing. But I think recently and again, starting with that murder of Talos, I think he’s obviously losing it a little bit. And it’s less now about the strategic aims or what he said the strategic aims were and getting a home for the Skrull people and more about his own personal vendetta against Nick Fury. And so I think his unraveling like you kind of hinted to, is obviously going to be his undoing. But prior to that, when he was being so strategic and methodical, he really could have beat Fury. I truly believe that. I mean, the Gravik that we saw for three and a half episodes was virtually unstoppable just in his execution of a really well-thought-out plan. And so I like that they took this route. I was actually really shocked by it. I wasn’t shocked by his kind of power going to his head a little bit, mixed with his personal vendetta. I think that wasn’t what surprised me. But what I did enjoy and I know we’ll get into this a little bit later, is the way the Skrull people reacted to that. And that’s all I’ll say about that for now, because I know we’re going to get into that. But I really agree. I think taking that direction with Gravik’s character allowed there to be a nice ending to this show without it feeling rushed. Like I think we’ve seen some of the other shows be and I know we’ve talked about that in the past, so I won’t belabor that point, but I think this time it’s been really well-paced and they allowed a story to unfold, begin, have a middle, and then have an end in six episodes versus trying to cram something that could have been seven or eight into six.

Katie: Yeah, I really agree with that. And I think it happened really naturally and I think that’s what I enjoy a lot too because I mean, what was it, Episode One possibly already? We were like Gravik’s kind of psychotic. He definitely isn’t a far step off of the rails, that is for sure. But I think it’s a very natural progression to see how he is falling behind, even though he’s ahead and he knew he was ahead the whole time. But it’s every little setback that shouldn’t have shaken him the way it did. But because it was Nick’s doing it just really I don’t even know how to say that. It just really shook something loose in him, I think. And quite frankly, I wouldn’t be against putting out the theory too that undergoing these experiments. He was the first, to our knowledge, that made it successful to be a Super Skrull. Before him, to our knowledge, other test subjects had been killed in the process, so I wouldn’t be entirely shocked if that’s not somewhat messing with his head as well. Not to mention, I mean, he’s still in the process of seemingly increasing that power and that’s something I actually talked about in the blog. I don’t think he has all four of them. I think he’s working himself up to all four of them.

Taylor: Interesting.

Katie: And he had to do like almost rest periods in between. But I mean, if this is only two and look at how ruthless he already is and it’s you know what? Actually, it reminds me a lot of the Super Soldier serum. 

Taylor: Yeah. 

Katie: It’s going to make bad traits worse and it’s going to make good traits better. And that’s what I’m kind of getting out of this, is that what is going on, he was already, you know, he could have walked an edge. But I think adding on this power and not even just one but two of them and he might be on the road to going to the third one. I just think it is accentuating his worst traits and it’s showing.

Taylor: Yeah, I like what you’re saying about the idea of it being parallel to a Super Soldier serum because we already saw the effects of the Extremis, right? Like even Pepper. She’s so cool, calm, and collected, Pepper Potts put together. She’s got it. But when she had the Extremis, she almost literally ripped Tony in half. And, you know, I think if it can take someone who is normally so levelheaded and really not having a personal vendetta against a specific person, now take someone who is probably a little bit well, one has a lot of trauma, right? Probably a little bit unhinged to begin with, just from everything that he’s been through in his life, not to, you know, justify his actions, but I do want to say was probably adding to it. Then he has a very specific personal vendetta against Nick Fury. And now you’re adding on this element that while it heals you, probably turns up the dial on aggression. And that’s not really a recipe for success if you’re Gravik. And I think what’s interesting about that is like I mentioned how in the first few episodes, he really is very methodical. But I think it’s interesting that we don’t see him with the powers, especially the Extremis, until, what was it, Episode Three when he meets with Talos. So I’m wondering if like, all right, he gets it in three, we don’t start to see it really have effects until that fourth episode when he’s like, all right, let’s go kill the president and if I can’t kill the president, I’m going to take Talos down instead.

Katie: Yeah, I think we are seeing within four and now five his downward progression. And quite honestly, I want to kind of bridge what you were just talking about with some of his drives because of Nick and to take down Nick. But I believe it’s Pagan and I want to say I want to make sure I’m saying that right. That’s his right-hand man and we’ll talk about the fate of him in a hot sec. But he is the one who points out you have had the chance to kill Nick Fury multiple times and you have not called or tried to take that shot. And I think at the end of the day, in the weirdest way he is trying so desperately to prove to Nick that he could do what Nick couldn’t do, that he doesn’t want him dead yet. He wants to prove to him that he can do everything he’s saying and quite frankly, in episodes one and two, I would have been like, yeah, you know, Gravik, you can. You have outdone the old man at this point, you’ve proven that you are a better spy, that you’re better at every, essentially everything else. You’ve taken the lessons that he taught you and you’re implementing them and you’re outdoing your mentor, essentially. The student has now become the teacher. And now and I like what you’re saying with Extremis, I think that’s a really good one, too, because I’m not so sure. I mean, the Groot species is sort of docile. I mean, obviously, he acts as an Avenger, or no, he’s not an Avenger, as a guardian, and he obviously uses his abilities to fight. But on his day-to-day, I mean, we all know Groot, you know.

Taylor: Not exactly killer instincts in that one.

Katie: No. I mean, even when he is killing, he’s not always I mean, newer Groot, maybe. Older Groo, he’s kind of just there for the fight. He’s not really logically thinking through the fight. So I wouldn’t necessarily add that as the aggressive part. But I definitely, I like your point with Extremis. I do think I mean, who is that Killian, who creates it? I mean, look at him. He goes off the rails. So I agree, I think there are a lot of factors at play. I’m intrigued because as we’ve been saying, this downfall would not have been possible if this hadn’t happened.

Taylor: Yeah, I mean, he really is his own downfall, right, in the sense that, you know, he felt like he had to be stronger because he thought that Nick had all these Avengers in his pocket and, oh, man, are we going to have a segment for you guys on that one, don’t you worry.

Katie: Oh, yes we are.

Taylor: But he thought, you know, that Nick had all these Avengers at his beck and call who he could bring in and realistically, he does, you know. He wants to handle this one on his own, but that’s a choice, not a need. And so Gravik was trying to head off a threat that had not yet materialized and in doing so, ruined his own dang plan. He played himself. Let’s just summarize Gravik in one sentence. Gravik played himself. And I think it’s time to dive into how that happens and how it’s depicted in the show because I was so proud of the Skrull people. 

Katie: So was I. 

Taylor: In this show or in this sorry in this episode. You know, having them realize, like, dude, you have gone beyond. I think for a lot of them, you know, the idea of a New Skrullos or really taking over Earth like they have been displaced for close to 30 years, somewhere in the ballpark of 30 years. Like, I get it, you’re a little frustrated. But I think the moment when they realized, oh, my gosh, this dude is nuts, and also he was going to kill his own people. He never, I guess my question is and I’m literally having a conversation with myself in my head. But like, my question is, did he ever really care about the Skrull people or was that just a means to power?

Katie: And I love that we’re asking this question because I think I want to say roughly episode one or two of us would love to have this conversation. 

Taylor: Yeah.

Katie: Because did we not talk about the difference too, between him and G’iah. G’iah loves her people and she was a part of the whole revolution for the people. Not because she was trying to take out humans. She was trying to help her Skrull citizens that have come down to earth and have been refugees and are grasping to keep their culture. I mean, there was a great example in this episode of how she didn’t even know the funeral prayer.

Taylor: That scene was so beautiful. I mean, what a wonderful depiction of like the loss of culture as people are displaced. I thought that was such a moving scene. I was really impressed by that, and I thought that was awesome.

Katie: I did, too. And but that’s a great example of showing, to your point, what you just said, how when people are displaced, they can’t always keep parts of their culture as alive as I think they wish to. And so that is what G’iah was always going for, helping her people, letting them be themselves instead of having to be a shell all the time. But I think the difference is, and we knew the difference. Gravik, he wanted almost payback. 

Taylor: Yeah. 

Katie: For the fact that his people were in hiding. And I think he started with the idea of, you know, getting his people to be allowed to live their own lives. I think it started in the right spot. But he let the revenge, the anger, and everything else eat him up to the point where, I mean, my God, he’s literally creating like Super Skrulls and he was sacrificing his own people to be the scientific lab rats. That’s not somebody who’s a leader and somebody who’s truly trying to help his people.

Taylor: Well, and then he took that, you know, one step further and went from let me just take a few of you as lab rats to I’m going to bomb the whole lot of you. And you’re going to almost thank me for it. Like when he says that line about, you know, we’re going to do what we always talked about and make the sacrifice, I just thought to myself, well, then who are you really saving? If you’ve killed all of your people, these are not your operatives. These are civilians, for lack of a better term. These are the people who don’t leave the compound. They just want to live as themselves without a shell, and you’re going to kill them. So then who do you think you’re saving?

Katie: Because he’s not saving anyone anymore. 

Taylor: Well, right. 

Katie: He’s so far in the revenge plot that he doesn’t care. He just wants the humans to know that not only had they infiltrated them to the highest levels of some of their governments, but that he has the power to destroy them. And I think that is insane. But that’s what makes him such an interesting villain at this point, because not only did he have the background with Nick and a lot of the trauma that I think any good villain would have to create a villain origin. But we saw him start essentially very normal. 

Taylor: Yeah.

Katie: I mean, yeah, he wanted World War Three and we’ve always known that was going to be his play. But and as humans, you know, I’d rather not. But you know, he was doing it for his people. As that has gotten twisted, that no longer is what it is. And that’s why when he was even saying, you know, we’re going to tell them exactly where we are and we’re going to let the U.S. president make the call to bomb us on Russian soil and World War Three. That’s great. You won’t be there. I know you won’t be there, but all your people are.

Taylor: Yeah. 

Katie: And so it definitely I was pretty shocked by that. I got to say, I wasn’t as shocked as the moment he killed Pagan. 

Taylor: Yeah. I mean, I was impressed with his willingness to stand up to Gravik. But I think what’s interesting about that is that he thought he was talking to the Gravik two episodes ago. The Gravik who listens to reason, the Gravik, who would hear that argument and think, oh, no, you’re right. I haven’t actually taken the headshot at Nick Fury, even though I’ve had the opportunity. He’s so far beyond what his real goal is. And he didn’t like being challenged one, but he also didn’t like, I think what that did was what Pagan called him out did was show him how far he truly has gotten. And I don’t think he liked that. I don’t think he liked being shown, oh man, maybe I’m not as clear-headed as I should be. And so he was like, you know what? I’m just going to eliminate the guy who holds the mirror up to me and makes me feel bad about myself and then he just stabbed him with his arm.

Katie: Yeah, that was definitely the moment for me, I think there were two gaspy moments in this episode on my end, and that was one of them. I genuinely I was sitting there and I just really quick did a *gasp* because I didn’t expect it. And then I was like, no, wait, he didn’t kill him. But then I looked and realized he was impaled.

Taylor: Yeah.

Katie: He was in fact, I just kind of thought he went through his shoulder or something. 

Taylor: So did I. 

Katie: Yeah. It kind of looked like that when he twisted.

Taylor: Yes, exactly. And then at the same time, I looked and I was like, oh, that’s his left side. So if he’s going to go for the shoulder, he has to be real careful because, you know, assuming that Skrulls have a similar anatomy to human, there’s a particular organ on that side in the chest area that if you pierce that, it doesn’t really work so good. 

Katie: Yeah, it was when I realized that, that it really struck me that he had lost it. And then I want to get into because you you kind of mentioned it, so let’s get to the point. The Skrull people were done with this. I think for one, they probably had friends that went missing because Gravik was not transparent at all about what he was doing trying to create the Super Skrulls.

Taylor: Not to mention he also was killing his own operatives. Like if they were compromised in the field, he was taking them out into the woods and shooting them. So it wasn’t just the experiments. It was quote-unquote compromised people who he felt didn’t protect him and was like, you’re gone now. And I’m sure they, to your point, had loved ones, had friends who were like, where’d you go? And it’s a little too convenient that they’re all killed in the field, don’t you think?

Katie: Yeah and to my knowledge, he’s not giving much of an explanation to people. Keep in mind, in episode four, Pagan asks where G’iah is. He never even told him that she was their mole and that to his knowledge, and well, so far still to his knowledge, that she’s dead. Never even mentioned that to who is supposed to be his right-hand man. I think looking back and maybe this is a hindsight bias a little bit, but looking back at that scene, it kind of foreshadows what you see in this scene because he’s already starting to cut somebody who was aware of everything, who knew everything he was doing out of his circle, which was leaving him with a circle of one at that point because he no longer even seemed to want to share the information with his right-hand man.

Taylor: Yeah, he essentially was starting to become a one-man band. And if you’re fighting a war that’s kind of hard to do, just saying.

Katie: But not when he has the ego of himself thinking, well, I’m a Super Skrull, and it doesn’t help that when the Skrulls do rise up, which I don’t know how much they know, and I think that’s why they went for the initial attack. For some of them, I mean, obviously, a lot of the operatives saw him, at least had the Groot arms. As far as Extremis, I’m not sure how much of that they truly knew. And, you know, I give them the credit, but as soon as he hit him with a hammer, I was like, this isn’t ending well, for you guys.

Taylor: I had hope. I really did, because I thought, you know what would be, it would be so cool, almost, if they killed him and like, that would be something completely unexpected, you know? And I wasn’t sure where I thought it was going to go from there, because obviously the fight scene only lasted a minute or two. So I didn’t really get the form of full theory, but I really wanted them to win. I think partially too because I really liked that Skrull who kind of initiated.

Katie: We saw him in the first episode, right?

Taylor: Exactly. I think for me, I always associate him with G’iah and G’iah’s kindness. And so to me, he’s kind of been almost like a silent moral compass, a little bit. You could see his apprehension doing some of the operative work even in past episodes and especially today, the way he just stood and watched Gravik after he killed Pagan, I was like, this guy knows. And then the way he went up to him to talk to him, it was very interesting that he kind of I don’t know that he volunteered because obviously that’s not on the, you know, part of the scene. But I would imagine that he almost volunteered then to be the person who’s going to kind of be the I don’t even know what you would call it, the bait, I guess, to get Gravik to kind of engage with them so they could make the attack. And I really, really wanted them to win.

Katie: Oh, don’t get me wrong. I wanted them to definitely win. I just knew him being a Super Skrull of not one, but two and maybe even a third working its way, starting to get ready in his veins. I just knew the chances were not high. And he, so far as I said, is the only successful Super Skrull besides G’iah. I don’t know if he’s decided to make any others because he quite frankly, didn’t want anyone to be able to challenge him.

Taylor: Yeah, no, that’s a good point, because now that he’s kind of decided to a. kill his own people and b. that like it’s not going to be necessarily an all-out war between the Skrulls and the humans, really. Like he thinks he’s bested Nick, right? So he’s not worried about Nick calling in the Avengers because realistically, if Nick was going to call the Avengers, he would have called them by now. So I think that threat has almost minimized a little bit. So Gravik’s kind of like, why would I make my own competition? Let me just be the strongest man around.

Katie: Yeah. And I definitely think especially with Extremis and starting to me, starting with probably the most volatile option, I think that coursing through your veins immediately makes you not want more threats around. And so as of right now, where he stands, G’iah, quite frankly, is the only one who has a chance to put up a fight against him because as much as I had hope for these Skrulls and for and I wish I was remembering his name, but I don’t remember his name, the one you were talking about. We see him in the first episode, and I know he even says his name in the first episode, and I’m not remembering it. As much as I had hoped for him and all the other Skrulls who rose up, you know, clearly, that didn’t work out. And I just, you know, like I said, I figured it wouldn’t. Unfortunately, they are not equipped to fight him. I mean, come on. That’s like anybody taking on Captain America, like Chris Evans, Captain America, Super Soldier version. I’m sorry, but he took out how many operatives in an elevator in Winter Soldier? It’s just, it’s not a fair fight. no matter what.

Taylor: No, even with the element of surprise, four or five on-one, you’re just not going to be able to do it. I’m glad you brought up Winter Soldier, though, because there were some serious Winter Soldier callbacks. 

Katie: Oh, yeah. 

Taylor: And also some Black Widow callbacks. So I definitely want to talk about some of those Easter eggs in this episode.

Katie: I was partying.

Taylor: I know all I could think about was, wow, Kate must be so happy because there’s so much of this espionage world living right now.

Katie: I was so happy. I mean, listen, not only did I expect Winter Soldier stuff, but they have done an impeccable job at tying this into the Black Widow movie.

Taylor: Totally.

Katie: And this is, I think, honestly one of the only works maybe besides Hawkeye a little bit, but that’s mainly because of Yelena, so let’s be real with that. But this is probably one of the only works since that movie came out that actually references things that happened. And I couldn’t have been happier. I thought it was so well done and I think this is the type of work that deserves to do it. I mean, I wouldn’t expect The Marvels to be out here referencing something Black Widow did. Quite frankly, half of them didn’t know who Natasha was. So, yes, it was awesome. There were, I think, three main ones.

Taylor: Yeah, I’m counting three in my head. So let’s list them out. The first one, I’m not going necessarily in order. I’m just going off the top of my head. The first one that I can think of and the one that I probably got most excited about was Nat’s contact being the one who secured Fury the plane and the passport. I was so, so excited to see him again. I loved his character in Black Widow. He was hilarious. So it was cool to see how much business that former SHIELD agents give him. But it was also a really nice tie back to that show and sorry, that movie and, you know, acknowledging that it exists because, you know, we’ve gone on about this a million times, but with it being out of order, there’s really nothing that can be done. You know, it’s soft retconning stuff in the sense that it’s like adding stuff to a blank spot in history. But there was stuff after it that probably could have referenced that didn’t because it came out release order first and so it was cool to have for once, to your point, like a full-on callback reference Easter Egg to that particular movie.

Katie: I think that personally for me was what had me most excited because I think that was the most obvious one. I also and I’m sorry, I also am blanking on his name as well, but he, I remember a lot of people kind of just being like, who is this dude? He just shows up for this movie. He’s helping her out with all this stuff, but we really don’t have any background on him. He’s just kind of there. I mean, don’t get me wrong, he helps move the plot forward. He does things by getting her planes and everything else she needs. But beyond that, a lot of people weren’t really sure why he was there. But then we got this and that was such a good thread that was kind of still dangling out there that I think people sort of were like, eh at this point, we’re going to forget about it. We’re just going to move on with our lives and whatever. But they grasped it and they gave it a little bit more context because I’m sure if this person was Nick Fury’s contact all those years ago, too, he’s how Natasha knew to contact him. So I just, that was so good. When he came out of the cabin, immediately I was like, I know you, I know where you’re from and it just was so good.

Taylor: Yeah, I was so excited. It was such a, it was just a great way of doing it without beating you over the head and saying, oh, it’s from that movie, but also it totally makes sense in this context. It wasn’t forced. He’s clearly like a fixer for spies, and he was fixing for a spy, so it was perfectly natural.

Katie: Yeah, I really enjoyed it. I also really enjoyed though, the second one with the face mask.

Taylor: Yes.

Katie: And the reason I actually enjoyed it more than anything is we’ve officially been given a name and it’s called the Widow’s Veil. And I, I’m not going to lie, a part of me got a little emotional because, well, first all I thought of was, I’m sorry, did I step on your moment?

Taylor: Iconic.

Katie: But then I also just was thinking, oh, gosh, because I don’t it didn’t have a name. Even when you watch, look at me, expert over here even, but when you watch Agents of SHIELD, it’s not the name that they’re referring it, it’s not the Widow’s Veil. And so I just for Fury to sit there and say what the Widow’s Veil and to pretty much be like, I just patented that. That’s the name of this. We’re going to go with that from now on. That’s Natasha’s favorite toy.

Taylor: And also, you know, knowing that that was done in memoriam to her and to honor her. I loved that. I thought that was so awesome.

Katie: Well, because I don’t think we’ve ever talked about this, but let’s be real. He came back from the Blip and she was dead.

Taylor: Like, for real dead. Not like dusted dead. Dead, dead.

Katie: Well, that’s my point. He came back, and not only was, you know, the world so different. I’m sure that was a driving factor for him to not want to stay. She was an essentially adopted daughter to him and was his best agent. I mean, to sit there and find out that she sacrificed her life to make sure everybody could come back and come back to wherever they were and live their lives again. I’m sure he was so proud, but it was probably extremely heartbreaking for him in a completely different way. And so, I mean, we don’t talk about that enough because I don’t think we’ve had the moment to make that connection. But I have to say, I thought that was such a, I mean, it did well for her character. It was almost in a memorial kind of way. And I don’t know, it was just it was really well done and once again, it wasn’t in your face. And I knew he was wearing one, too and that’s why I was like, say something. Say it. Because I knew he had the mask on. It just it flowed very nicely. I will say, when he mentioned an updated version, I wanted to understand if we were going to be seeing that anytime soon.

Taylor: I’m trying to think what property would make the most sense. I don’t think we’re going to see it in this show. 

Katie: No, no.

Taylor: Because he clearly doesn’t have his hands on it. 

Katie: But that means that tech is being created by someone.

Taylor: Yeah, and we don’t have Stark. So who’s the biggest techie now?

Katie: I don’t know. Unless one day they are trying to bring in some of the Agents of SHIELD. I could get behind Fitz-Simmons being in that conversation, but beyond that, I’m not sure. And so he mentioned that and that stuck out to me because that opened a new level of concern, knowing that that tech is out there, we don’t have a SHIELD, not entirely sure who is making the tech, who has the tech. So I’m a little intrigued. It’s also a little scary because it essentially would make a human like a Skrull, the ability to completely morph into another human being.

Taylor: I didn’t even make that connection, but I like it. The idea that this the Widow’s Veil is essentially a technological Skrull power essentially. Interesting. 

Katie: Yeah. 

Taylor: Going back to who might have it, I just thought of one place that I want to put out there. It could be SWORD because essentially they replaced SHIELD. I know. Katie made a face. For those of you who can’t see, which is everyone, she made a face and I was reacting to that face.

Katie: I mean, yeah, I wouldn’t be entirely like, put off by that. I don’t know. SWORD didn’t impress me the way SHIELD did. I don’t know who they have sitting behind things, though, so I can’t say they’re one of those you just don’t know enough about yet. So I’m not against that theory. I just don’t know. I don’t know, I guess is the bigger thing or what are they doing up on SABER? That’s still to be determined.

Taylor: Yeah, very much so. And I think it could be an interesting way for Fury to almost honor Natasha by updating or having someone update the tech, you know, like keep it going in her honor, improve it in her honor. It could be an interesting kind of like emotional tie to some very, very dangerous technology.

Katie: Yeah, well, that checks out for Nick. 

Taylor: Yeah. 

Katie: I mean, he even mentioned the Helicarrier in this episode and I was like, Nick, leave it alone. 

Taylor: I know. 

Katie: Your helicarriers are not available right now.

Taylor: We all know you prefer to travel by Helicarrier, but let’s not. 

Katie: Yeah.

Taylor: So that was actually my third reference. So what is your third Easter egg.

Katie: Oh, the graves.

Taylor: Oh yeah.

Katie: Yeah. I mean, the end of Winter Soldier, obviously, Nick fakes his death. That’s sort of the start actually, of really a lot of this for him and we see him standing at a grave. They are in the US and Cap is there and Nat’s there. They’re there to say goodbye to him as he goes off on whatever weird side missions Nick Fury does in his free time.

Taylor: Apparently chasing aliens, according to his wife.

Katie: And also flying his little Helicarrier around.

Taylor: That’s how he prefers to travel with all of his reflective shields, untraceable, flying in style.

Katie: Yeah. I mean, you know, I don’t blame him, but you know, before he goes off for all that, we see him standing at his grave, that’s not obviously really him, but it’s his faked death grave. And at the time, you’re kind of like, okay, cool. And I think all of us assumed in the trailer that was the grave they were going to be standing at until he was like, what are you talking about? I have a ton of these everywhere. And then to find out they’re secret hiding spots, I mean, that makes it that makes so much sense for him. 

Taylor: Well, yeah, but now I want to know what’s hidden in his U.S. grave.

Katie: I want to know what’s hidden in all of them.

Taylor: Well, yeah, but I mean, specifically the one we’ve seen before. What does he have in the US that he’s hiding? Nick, tell me.

Katie: Yeah, and that one specifically, I feel, would tie in more with Winter Soldier era things. Just because of the timing of that, I just have a feeling. But yeah, I, he just like offhandedly mentions he just has a bunch of graves in a bunch of different countries. 

Taylor: Wait, do you want to know something that I think would be the best thing ever.

Katie: What?

Taylor: It’s like not related to any of the shows but like Disney. Okay so you guys know how-

Katie: Oh my gosh, I know exactly where you’re going with this. 

Taylor: I may be showing our age on this one, but if you go to Disney World, there used to be a Kim Possible game.

Katie: It’s not Kim Possible anymore.

Taylor: I know. I know. You have to go and uncover clues. And they updated it to something for the people who are much younger than we are.

Katie: Well, it was Kim Possible, got updated too I think like Phineas and Ferb, but it’s not that. It’s definitely something newer. I don’t know.

Taylor: No, it’s definitely for today’s children and not us old folk and so I think they should update it again knowing that there’s precedence for changing it and just make it you finding Nick Fury’s graves. 

Katie: And what’s inside of them.

Taylor: Yeah, like, isn’t it Epcot? And you just have to like, find all these clues to be able to, like, unlock the different things in Nick Fury’s gravestones in different countries. Hey, it’s different countries, too. So it’s 100%. 

Katie: That would be perfect.

Taylor: Whoever runs Disney Parks, you can call me. We’ll talk about this and we’ll set this up. Let’s go.

Katie: Oh, my gosh. Wait. That would genuinely be extremely fun. It’s almost hidden Mickey’s, but just Nick Fury’s graves.

Taylor: It’s not even morbid at all for the happiest place on earth.

Katie: Because he’s not even dead. That’s the funniest part. 

Taylor: That’s true. 

Katie: So how can it be morbid if there’s no body at any of them?

Taylor: Well, this is my pitch, Disney. You know where to find me. Our emails on the website and I’ll be waiting.

Katie: We also take DMs.

Taylor: That too. 

Katie: But in and of itself, the important thing that came out, beyond these being fun little callbacks, Easter Eggs was the Harvest and the episode was called The Harvest. I went into it being very confused because I was not sure where we were going to go with an episode called The Harvest and wow, I wasn’t disappointed about what it was, but I definitely one: have a lot of questions for Nick Fury and two: have a lot of just overall concerns about the fact that there is a team of Skrulls that went to a battlefield searching for Avengers blood after the Battle of Earth.

Taylo: I think my first thought was this is another not nice thing that I know about Nick Fury that I was much better not knowing. 

Katie: Yeah.

Taylor: Add this to the list of using the Skrulls for all of his promotions and I know there have been a few others, but that’s the big one I can think of right now. Not thrilled that he took these Avengers who really superseded him. 

Katie: Some of them gave their lives on that field.

Taylor: They took the team that he made. They expanded it. They made it a global force for safety and yes, they made mistakes, but their intentions were good. And Nick Fury never, ever asked them to stay together. But some of them did. And they cleaned up the battles that we couldn’t. Isn’t that like the paraphrased thing, that they’re going to fight the fights that we are unable to fight. They did that without Nick Fury. And how does Nick Fury repay them not only for going on and fighting the fights, but bringing everyone back? Let me just harvest their blood in case I need this in the future. For what Nick? For what?

Katie: Honestly, that is one of the questions on my list. But ironically, it’s not my main one, which it maybe should be, but my thought process was, first off, I feel like, I don’t know. I want to start at the beginning, but there’s not a beginning to start at. But there’s so many thoughts going through my brain. First, this just gave us a little bit of a timeline, post-Blip.

Taylor: Yeah.

Katie: Where Gravik wasn’t yet against Fury because he was one of the Skrulls who went and got the blood. So there’s a level of confusion. There’s another emotion there that’s not disgust because that’s not quite it. But there’s definitely a weird feeling in my gut knowing that when Nick came back from the Blip and granted, he hadn’t left yet for SABER and I understand that was probably a lot of Gravik’s reasoning, but just knowing that Gravik was that close to Nick, that he trusted him to go do that. That is another layer to their relationship, another notch on a timeline of their relationship. And so that alone definitely that had me feeling a type of way. I’m not going to lie. But then to your point, what is it being used for is definitely a concern. My other main question, though, and I think the one that floats above it all is, is it all in that vial? And if so, then what are you trying to create with a concoction of every superpowered person’s blood?

Taylor: Yeah. Okay. Let me let me tackle this because you hit on two things and I want to talk about them both. I’m going to go back to your first point about the timeline between Gravik and Fury. I think this really answers our question from I want to say last episode or maybe episode three, where we were talking about trying to decide whether or not Gravik really started his revolution during the Blip in Fury’s absence or after. This is without a doubt, confirms after. After Nick left for SABER and he said, I’m done with Earth, I’m never coming back. That’s when Gravik was like this man, what? I admired him. And not only did he admire him, but he did dirty crap like this for him. To your point, they had to have been close. There had to have been an incredible level of trust between the two of them. And clearly that trust didn’t go beyond work things. I think if you’re Gravik or if I’m Gravik, really, and I have admired this man since I was a young boy and I was brought to him and he was going to be our savior, right? He was going to find us a new home and in the meantime, I’m paying my dues with this guy. I respect him. I want to be like him. I want to emulate him. And he trusts me on this level, but he doesn’t trust me enough to stay. He doesn’t trust me enough to talk about why he’s leaving. He just goes and he never comes back and he never keeps his promise. And do I think Gravik is right? No. But do I understand why he’s angry? Oh, absolutely. It just again, one thing I like about the show, but also hate and then I’ll get to your second question, is that it paints things about Nick Fury that I don’t like. But at the same time, I like that it’s going there because it makes him a more complicated protagonist in that he’s not Steve Rogers, you know? Steve, up until Civil War didn’t even play in a gray area. He was Mr. Righteous, right? And even in Civil War, you know, he really didn’t do anything that egregious. 

Katie: I was going to say, even Civil War is a little arguable.

Taylor: Yeah, you know, depending on what side of the fence you fall. But, you know, up until that point, there wasn’t even a question about Steve and his being on the right side of everything. Obviously, we’ve known Nick Fury to be a little bit more on the plaing in the gray area before. But I think this is giving us some really strong, solid, concrete examples of not only being like a little shady and a little bit in the gray area, but kind of just being a crap human in some cases and just being a little bit of a turd.

Katie: Yeah and I don’t want to cut you off to answering my second question because I want to make sure we hit that. But I do want to just say what you were just saying. First off, this ties back to the fact that we are finally seeing character development for Nick Fury, which we’ve never gotten. But I think what I actually really enjoy is the fact that if you take any little mosey down any lane of the comics where Nick Fury is involved, he is actually very well known for not pulling his punches. He’s very well known for doing the dirty work that no one else wants to do. He’ll get the job done, not necessarily all rainbows and butterflies, but he’ll get the job done no matter how dirty his hands need to get. And I mean, quite frankly, if any of you have a little knowledge of him from the comics or if you’re one of our newsletter recipients and you read about it, his little brief summary that I did, I mean, he literally ends up the Watcher. He’s punished by like cosmic beings and ends up essentially being his own version of a Watcher because of how out of hand he tends to get because he’s willing to just, you know, do it. And so I actually kind of enjoy that we’re seeing a lot more of that version of Nick. They’re really tying him a lot more to his comic origin of just the ability to do what he’s got to do and, you know, maybe it’s not nice and maybe it doesn’t look pretty to us. And maybe for the past 10 to 13 years of the MCU we’ve been painted with Nick one way and we kind of felt we knew him, but we were being shown we didn’t at all.

Taylor: Yeah, and it’s like I said, I appreciate that not making him something he’s not, which is this righteous toe the line man. He’s doing the right things and he’s trying to help people and he has a sense of right or wrong. But for him, the ends will always justify the means. 

Katie: Yeah.

Taylor: And I think we’re seeing those examples in this show and some of them make me feel a little icky. And I don’t love that because I like Nick Fury and I like Samuel L. Jackson, and I don’t want to feel conflicted about the character. But at the same time, that just makes him more human because realistically, looking at Steve, Steve is completely unrelatable. I love Steve. Don’t get me wrong, Cap girl, 100%. Have Cap pillows, Cap shields all over my apartment. Like no hate to Steve ever, but he’s completely unattainable in the sense that he’s essentially perfect. He’s always doing the right thing, with the exception maybe not telling Tony that Bucky killed his parents. Steve does the right thing all the time in the right way without, you know, too much damage. And the ends don’t justify the means for Steve, you know, and I like that we have a character who’s more complicated, more nuanced, more real, more relatable, because we all have to I mean, we’re not all making life and death decisions, but we all have to make decisions in a gray area every day of our lives. Not always do we get them right. And I think Nick Fury is like a really good representation of like, yeah, maybe I’d do that one again. But honestly, he also doesn’t seem like he regrets too much of it. So go Nick for just owning his own choices.

Katie: No but he does regret this one and you’ve been seeing that throughout the whole series. Yet, let’s pivot so you can you can kind of answer my second question, which is what would a vial full of all of the powered Avengers blood? Why? Essentially not what. Why?

Taylor: Yeah, okay. I had the same question because I was like, did they combine them all?

Katie: That’s my impression. But then I was like, not only was that not an impression I had, but then I was like, it’s literally called the Harvest. And what do you usually do with a harvest? You know, you pick it, you do whatever, and then you combine it. You have a big gathering of the harvest. So I was like, oh, okay. 

Taylor: Here’s the thing, I am reaching very, very deep back into my 10th grade biology class, and I think you can hold like dozen DNA live within a specific like if you’re holding someone’s DNA, right? You’ve extracted their DNA in one way or another and you’re looking to store it doesn’t it get stored in liquid? So I’m almost wondering if, like the different strands of DNA are all living within like a preservative, something akin to like a formal aldehyde or something and there are individual strands. They’re just all preserved in one bottle. How you would identify who’s is who’s, not really sure. But that’s the only way that I can think that like he didn’t just go ahead and make like a super Captain Marvel Captain America, Ant-Man, although maybe not Ant-Man cause he doesn’t really have any special DNA. That was a bad example. 

Katie: Wanda. Black Panther.

Taylor:. Yeah, like all of that. 

Katie: Hulk. 

Taylor: I guess my question, this is just random and we don’t have to answer this now, but thinking about it, like, does the heart shaped herb actually alter your DNA or is it just like a regular man who happens to be enhanced? Like, same with Steve? Is his DNA fully altered or like, no?

Katie: I would assume it’s like through his bloodstream and everything else. Same with the heart shaped herb. So I would have to assume that’s altering your DNA.

Taylor: I mean, I would think so, but it just made me wonder for a second.

Katie: Yeah, but I mean, I’m not a science person, so this has gone above my head. I understood what you were saying, but I have simply no actual thing I can say back to it because I don’t know how that works. Either way, whatever Fury’s plan with that was, I don’t I’m not even I mean, guys, we’ve reached history. Katie’s speechless and she doesn’t have a theory because I don’t know what he was using that for. I don’t know what in his brain said, hey, I know the Avengers wouldn’t let me take their blood, so I’m going to go have the Skrulls search the battlefield of the Avengers compound where Tony Stark just laid life. 

Taylor: Oh my God, Thor.

Katie: Oh, yeah. To save this entire planet and universe, and I’m going to have them search every little piece for some Avenger blood. What? What? And he knows who, he’s aware who he has because he said, you know, Captain Marvel’s in there. He knows, which means they’ve done some level of tests on it because he knows what I mean, you don’t just know what blood is lying around. So they know at least whose blood they’ve collected. Who is doing these tests? Are they doing this on SABER? Then, if so, why was this on Earth? I just, I don’t know.

Taylor: I honestly, I’m so concerned. I truly am. Look, I don’t want to go here, but there is a very famous storyline with Peter Parker and clones in the comics. I don’t want to go to clones, but.

Katie: I had a feeling I’m not going to lie.

Taylor: Do I think that, you know, maybe Nick was thinking about it? Yeah. Do I also think maybe it was one of those situations where he was like, let’s say Carol Danvers gets mowed down. Well, we need a new Captain Marvel, or, you know, truly, let’s think about it. I mean, this is the man who took the Tesseract and tried to weaponize it.

Katie: Fair.

Taylor: Like, clearly he has a little bit more restraint than he did 15 years ago or what would that have been? Yeah, about 12, 13 years ago, depending on what year we are.

Katie: Well, to us, but yeah, I don’t know how long ago.

Taylor: Well they’re in like what, 25 maybe.

Katie: I don’t know. There’s been, I’ve been seeing people talk about how they could be in 27. 

Taylor: All right. Let’s just say somewhere in the ballpark of 12 to 15 years ago, this man took the Tesseract and said, I’m going to make weapons. So maybe he’s a little bit more restrained because he didn’t immediately go make weapons out of Avengers DNA. But, I mean, can you imagine a weapon powered by the power of Captain Marvel, powered by Wanda, powered by Thor? I mean, do you realize that this means there is a possibility to make more Super Soldier serum? The real kind, the pure kind, the purest of the pure.

Katie: Oh, my God. Wait. No, I’m not doing that again.

Taylor: The most successful Super Soldier that has ever lived. Because Bucky, I know, but he’s not the best. He’s number two in terms of models.

Katie: Is he?

Taylor: But the number one model is Steve Rogers. Okay, we’re not going to get this debate right now.

Katie: I was just going to say with his modifications. Technically-

Taylor: I’m saying just pure human Super Soldier, the best version. I mean, think about when they tried to recreate Bucky. We saw what happened, right?

Katie: Well, so then Bucky is just great.

Taylor: But I’m saying his, look, his process, though, is flawed. Steve’s process is pure and perfect. And so if you have that, you could essentially reconstruct Erskine’s formula. Just like Bruce Banner tried to do, unsuccessfully obviously, you could do all of it and create a new Captain America who doesn’t go off his rocker and kill someone with the shield. I mean, don’t get me wrong, we have Sam, so we don’t need a new Captain America. But if the government wanted to create their own again, that they could control because they can’t control Sam, he’s shown that he’s going to do what he thinks is right. Go, Sam. But if the government wanted a puppet like they had in John, then they could essentially do that with a little bit of Steve Rogers’ DNA and a really good scientist.

Katie: See, my fear is not even Super Soldiers though when there are a lot of more heavily powered beings whose DNA are there. Actually a theory I have and I kind of would rather see this played out because I think it would put an end to this new thread that just started and end the show. Would be Gravik’s greed and need to have this with what’s already inside of him. I think I could see Nick actually giving it to him and he quite literally just combusts essentially because there is too much in him that is far too unstable already, let alone with everything else. I mean, if Hulk’s blood is in there already, that’s just it’s own level on top of Extremis. I mean, there’s a lot happening there. So actually ideally that’s how I see this play out. Then The Harvest is done, it’s gone. We don’t have to worry about that being a threat dangling somewhere because God, if this series ends next week and that’s an ongoing threat we have to stress about, I can’t.

Taylor: You know, who I think’s going to end up with it?

Katie: Sharon.

Taylor: No, who haven’t we seen yet but it’s confirmed to be in the show? Valentina. And who has her own little group starting up?

Katie: Yeah, but I don’t know what use she would directly have for it with her group.

Taylor: No, I’m saying if she wants to add to the group, like she wouldn’t enhance the individual she’s already got, but she could enhance normal individuals.

Katie: Yeah.

Taylor: Or just use it as a leverage play. I mean, she’s the head of the CIA who clearly has some side gigs that the CIA probably doesn’t know about. So I just think, you know, she’s supposed to be in this show. It’s been five episodes and I don’t know about you, but Julia Louis-Dreyfus hasn’t appeared on my screen. 

Katie: That’s fair.

Taylor: And she kind of has a knack for showing up just at the right moment.

Katie: That’s fair. She could be a good one. I just I would ideally like to see it solved in this show so I don’t have to stress moving forward that someone might just get a mega concoction of all the Avengers’ DNA and it work. And the next thing you know, we have God knows what walking around.

Taylor: I’m trying to think if there’s anything in the comics that like is that.

Katie: I am too.

Taylor: But nothing is coming to mind. I feel like that would be something that we would know about.

Katie: I haven’t seen it blowing up anywhere.

Taylor: Obviously, you all know we’re not like huge comics people, but I’ve never heard of a villain who essentially has the powers of the Avengers. I mean, the Super Skrull is the closest thing, and he’s just got the Fantastic Four in the comics.

Katie: Yeah. So I don’t know. I’m going to walk with my theory for now, but I’m not against, I will look into if there’s a comic precedent somewhere about the Harvest, because I’d be very intrigued to see if there is something somewhere, even if it’s on a really like obscure comic line.

Taylor: It’ll be in the blog, folks. Definitely check it out.

Katie: Yeah, but I want to wrap up with one last thing. And unfortunately, to not make this episode a million years long, we’re going to skip over the Varra and G’iah thing a little bit, that battle, but also boss ladies. Love them and love Sonya.

Taylor: That was amazing.

Katie: They’re killing me like they are doing it.

Taylor: I know the ladies of this show are the best.

Katie: Yes. But I want to talk about, first off, we got to see Nick suit up. And you would be like, oh, well, he kind of just put on like a jacket and eye patch and grabbed a gun. But I’m like, but that was Nick suiting up, and that was really exciting.

Taylor: It was so epic.

Katie: Yeah, but I want to just discuss who you think he called.

Taylor: Oh, he called Gravik. 

Katie: Okay. 

Taylor: He was telling Gravik ‘I’m coming.’ 

Katie: Okay. 

Taylor: That was my initial assumption. Did you think something else?

Katie: No, I’m not going to lie, I thought that, too. The reason I want to bring it up, though, is because I’ve had about 10 hours since I watched this show.

Taylor: I’ve had less than two.

Katie: Yeah. To be on Twitter, to be on Threads, to be on everything and kind of hear the fandom talk. And we are a fandom, you know, based show. We’re going to talk about the theories we’re seeing everywhere. And a lot of people think he was calling friends more than he was calling Gravik to say, let’s get it over with. And obviously, there are a lot of people who are hoping to see people like Quake show up in this show. I’m one of them who would love to see her. I don’t know if I’m going to go to the cloud of thinking it’s fully realistic, but I would love to see her. Especially because Agents of SHIELD was on the list for this for a reason and while I do think there were some moments that I could see parallel a little bit into Agents of SHIELD, I don’t think I haven’t yet felt like it was worth a watch yet for this show, if that makes sense. But I will say if he was calling a friend because it’s we have to do the justice of chasing down the theory. If he was calling a friend, I just I would love it to be her. I think the ramifications would cause us to have about a four episode series alone about how Agents of SHIELD could or could not, or if it’s now going to be considered canon, how that’s going to work. But I just I don’t know if it’s a friend. I feel like it’s got to be someone we already have seen. In the MCU, I mean. Honestly I could see Sam showing up at the end or Captain Marvel guys is on Earth possibly depending on when The Marvels takes place. We could have her.

Taylor: And she’s been name dropped like a million times in the show.

Katie: And don’t forget, he’s been with Monica, too. She was on SABER in the trailers or in The Marvel’s trailers. Just to clarify. 

Taylor: Well, and honestly, Monica was going to see him at the end of The Marvels.

Katie: You mean Wandavision.

Taylor: Sorry. Yes, the end of Wandavision. Names and I are not friends.

Katie: I know. It’s okay. I just forget them and you just switch them. So we’re doing really great over here. But yeah, so honestly, if anything, those would kind of be the main ones, especially Monica. To me, she had a connection to G’iah that could make a lot of sense personally, if we’re going to get somebody from not the cast that we’ve already seen of the show coming in, making an appearance.

Taylor: I could see that, Yeah. I mean, like I said, my first thought was Gravik, but I’m open to bringing someone in new, someone who we are and expecting to really shake things up for the last episode, kind of maybe bridge us into something that’s coming up. You know, maybe this does lead us into The Marvels. I don’t know.

Katie: I think it does, because anybody who has been on the Internet today or yesterday or I guess by the time you’re listening to this, the past three days will have seen that there were new stills from The Marvels, in which Brie Larson, Captain Marvel herself, is standing in front of a bunch of Skrulls. So, I mean, I would be absolutely gagged if there was not a direct connection into it somehow.

Taylor: Yeah, and I’m going to rescind my statement. I don’t think this takes place after The Marvels. I think we’re going in order now. Which, hey, I’m here for, I like a good movies in order or semi within order. Feels good, like that very much. 

Katie: Yeah. Agreed.

Taylor: So I don’t know about you, but I just want to say one last thing before we call this an episode. It’s quick. I just want to say I think what we’re setting up here is for Emilia Clarke’s G’iah to be the new leader of the Skrulls. I think we’re going to see that play out next episode. I’m excited for it. We’ve talked about it a million times. You don’t bring in Emilia Clarke for something short, a mini series. You brought in the firepower. Let’s give her a real role. I think she could end up in The Marvels. I’m here for it. Love her. Let’s do it. So with that note, we’re going to call it an end on our coverage of episode five of Secret Invasion. Please stick around with us for the finale of the show next week. We will, of course, be covering Secret Invasion Episode Six. So if you are looking forward to all of our thoughts on how the show wraps up, please make sure that you’re subscribed or following on your podcast platform of choice. Definitely make sure to check out our website with our blog where like I said, Katie is going to have some good research on that potential all up Harvest villain. We’re going to see if yay or nay that has some comic precedents and some other good tidbits will be in there, I’m sure as well. You can also support the show on our homepage by purchasing any of the links on our Amazon affiliates. We would super, super appreciate it and it helps us make the show better for you.

Katie: Give us a follow on Twitter at SisAssembledPod and Instagram/Threads/both of them at SistersAssembled. Keep up with us there. Make sure you guys are knowing when new episodes drop. New blog posts come out, some fun content from us as hosts. Just be there. And as Taylor said, will be doing this all over again next week for episode six and the finale of Secret Invasion. In the meantime, make sure you guys are not only watching the show, but you’re listening to all our content related to it because Marvel just blew your mind, so let’s talk about it.