Transcript

Taylor: Well, listeners, we have now completed Secret Invasion. I almost said Civil War, which is weird and very not what we’re talking about today, but we have watched the finale now of Secret Invasion. All six episodes are out, so it’s been a wild ride. I think we’re going to get into this but I think up until this point we have been big, big fans of the show and maybe we didn’t do so hot in the ending, but we’ll get into it. We’ll dive into all of the things you need to know. We have a few episodes that are coming up to dive into a few things more deeply, but we’re going to talk, at least at a high level, about all things Secret Invasion Episode Six today and just dive deep into what was in the episode because realistically there wasn’t a lot. But Katie, why don’t you take us away?

Katie: I need to find my words. I think you know, I’ve had about, what, eight now? I’ve had almost 10 hours since I watched the show and almost I feel like the longer I’ve been out since watching it, the more my feelings have really taken over. And I am upset because I think we were five for five up until the finale. I think this show did something a lot of the other shows struggled to do, which quite frankly was create a consistently good storyline throughout all episodes and it was actually well-paced. And unfortunately while a lot of other shows and I think The Falcon and Winter Soldier is a great example, walked out with a really awesome finale. So we were able to walk away from the show at the end of the day and still be like, that was a really good show as a whole. When you just fumble the bag so badly, I think, on a finale to a suddenly it puts it almost shuts down everything that came before it. And that’s kind of how I feel about the show. And it’s going to take me a little bit of time to, like, accept the one L. In the five Ws, but definitely this finale was not it for me.

Taylor: Yeah, I can’t I almost can’t even put my finger on what didn’t feel right to me, you know. 

Katie: Everything. Everything was off. It just was, first off, how do we have a 37-minute finale?

Taylor: It was short. It was short. And I think, I don’t know like there was a lot of talking, which is fine. You know, I liked the expositional stuff with Gravik where we really actually got into the ways that Fury kind of like, messed him up as a young man and the ways that he admired him. And we’ll get into that I’m sure, further into the episode and analyze that a little bit. But I liked that. But at the same time, it felt like they were doing that for so long and then it wasn’t even Fury and then we got the Super Skrulls fighting one another for all of like 5 seconds, or well, it just was weird. I don’t know. Like I, I also am weirded out by the fact that they were even willing to give Gravik the Harvest, to begin with. Like that to me, how were they so confident that G’iah was going to beat him? Because if she didn’t, he would have been a virtually unstoppable force. That was a really big risk. I don’t know. It just felt off. And then Ritson, who I thought had been, this is jumping sort of to the end, but I’m just thinking about it now because I literally just stopped watching it like 15 minutes ago is like Ritson seemed pretty, I know he didn’t have a lot of screen time, but he seemed pretty normal as a dude, right? Like pretty ethical as far as politicians go, for the most part, you know, all of that stuff. But then at the end to kind of put that call out the way he did against the Skrulls and that’s something that we’re definitely going to dive deeper into a later episode. But like that to me was off and I don’t, I don’t know, it just something about it and I haven’t been able to fully put my finger on it yet, just felt wrong through the entire episode.

Katie: Well, I have to say, I went on Twitter as one does because I had to know I was like, I can’t. I need a consensus on what just happened because truly I can’t just be the only- my feelings need to be validated and I’m okay with my feelings not being validated. But in a sense, like this, I was like, I’m not the only one. I can’t be the only one who felt the feelings I’m feeling and everything else. And I think this might make you feel better because it made me feel better. I wish I could remember that user and if by some weird and off chance that user is listening, I’m giving you a shout-out. I truly cannot remember the username at the time. But they pretty much said this finale was exactly the finale that She-Hulk was making fun of. 

Taylor: Yeah. 

Katie: And as soon as I saw that, I said, that’s why this didn’t feel good to me because I think there were a lot of things to wrap up. I think the important things got rushed through. I mean, come on, the Fury and Gravik conversation being a whole of like 30 seconds, and then he didn’t even actually fight Gravik, that wasn’t what it came down to, which I don’t think I expected that. But I mean, Fury created the problem and someone else had to solve it again.

Taylor: Well, also for a second, though, like the alternative, the idea that Fury was going to be powered, then I literally had gotten my phone out to text you because you had texted me something. And I looked at my phone during the episode and it was right as they both came out of that, we’re going to call it a Super Skrull-making machine and I was like, oh, so now Fury has powers and like, there’s nothing wrong with people getting powers. And I obviously have nothing against Nick Fury. It’s just it’s been made such a part of his character that he doesn’t have powers that his powers are what did he say in the last episode? Between his ears and made by a single mom. So I was like, so you’re going to go back on this character? And then I was happy that it wasn’t actually him. But like, I don’t know, that was weird. And for a second I almost got very full of rage.

Katie: I did too, I’m not going to lie, but I have to say, you know, realizing it was that weird ending that She-Hulk was going with. And then we never got the very lucky cut-through that she was like, hold up this ending’s ridiculous and stupid. Why would I- and granted, let’s remember, we didn’t love the She-Hulk ending either because we thought it wasn’t paced properly. We thought it was cool, the fourth wall breaking and everything, and how she went to Marvel Studios and everything. That was awesome. But then she went back to her show and they were like, anyway, it’s over and it just was really weird. And I think that’s what happened here, was instead of having the interruption of being like, hold up, this is a little strange, let’s maybe stop, we’re getting a little bit into a weird spot. No one stopped it. And then they just were like, here we go, that’s the end of the show and it felt weird. As I said before, Fury again didn’t fight Fury’s fight, which makes no sense to me because was the whole show not him saying, it’s my fight, it’s my turn to finish it. And now, granted, I predicted from pretty early on that G’iah was going to be the only one to take down Gravik, ever since she took the Extremis. She was the only other enhanced Skrull who quite frankly, would have the ability to do it. But don’t preach to me for five episodes that Fury created this monster, which he did, and that he felt he could have taken them and done it himself and taken him out all by himself. And then he isn’t even there to do it. He once again has an enhanced individual do it. And then again, I’m sorry, I don’t know the users, but somebody else pointed out, so if Fury had just called Captain Marvel in like episode two, the show would have been over. 

Taylor: All right, I’m going to there’s a lot to unpack in your little tirade there, so I’m going to start.

Katie: I had to I’m sorry. I just I’m heated.

Taylor: All right, I totally get it. I’m going to play devil’s advocate here for a second and say that I understand your argument about Fury not fighting his own battles. I do because he did talk about that. However, I think what is part of his character growth in this show, and I think something else we’ve talked about is the fact that he needed to realize that he couldn’t do it all on his own, that he needed to be brought back down to his very foundations where he was on his own and fully incapable. Like when was that? Episode three or four where he was totally alone and he was just completely just not there, not with it. And I think what we saw throughout this show was Fury recognizing he needs to build relationships. He needs to have people in his life. He needs to ask for help. So I’m not upset about that because I think that’s the natural culmination of that development of his character. I think even if you look at, you know, asking Varra to come with him back to SABER, that’s another example of Fury recognizing the importance of relationships and of asking for help and recognizing where he’s not the man for the job, and using the abilities, whether that’s enhanced or just skills that people have to his advantage. Not in a manipulative way, but in a way that is respectful and I think that’s something he was learning throughout this episode. So that’s why I’m not even upset that he had G’iah go do it, because realistically, what was Fury going to do? Absolutely nothing. I mean, he was going to get crushed within 2 seconds, even if he was in the machine. Which one, I don’t even know that that would have worked for him because it’s probably calibrated to Skrull DNA. So he probably would have died in the machine. And if he had miraculously survived the binding of the DNA, I would have been annoyed for the exact reason I said a few minutes ago, I don’t want Fury to be enhanced. That’s not who he is. So I think having G’iah fight Gravik was really the only logical solution to that problem.

Katie: And listen, I do agree with that. Like I said, I predicted that I thought story-wise it would make more sense. I just think it really threw me off that and I see what you’re saying with the character growth. I don’t necessarily disagree with that. I just think it throws me off when we’re being preached to, even in episode five, how this is his fight. I mean, he even says it to Sonya. She asks again, why would you not bring in one of your superpowered friends? And he says this is my fight. And so I think it’s just also weird because Fury wasn’t even at the battle. And that I think, is really strange because you know, that conversation between him and Gravik didn’t actually happen between him and Gravik. And I think that needed to happen for Fury. He needed to face head-on the monster he created. So I just think that’s what makes me more upset is I guess not necessarily even G’iah fighting the battle for him. But it’s the fact that I mean, that conversation is so important. And I mean, genuinely, for the first time I felt for Gravik.

Taylor: Yeah. 

Katie: Because he was a kid who- he even said it. You were my hero. And he looked up to this man. He did everything for his man and for him to abandon him and give up helping his people, even though he promised he would. And so I don’t know. I just felt like that conversation was so critical for Nick Fury to actually have and to see how his actions so greatly impact people. And I listen, I’m sure, and we will talk about it. He has a similar conversation with Varra. And so I think that one was- I don’t want to say just as important, because I don’t think it is, but it’s still an important conversation to have. I just think he needed to face the monster.

Taylor: Yeah and in that instance, I do agree. I think it does cheapen that whole conversation. Then when you look at it retroactively and you’re like, oh, but that wasn’t actually Fury saying all those things. So, you know, I think though I will say this, I think Gravik is an example of even though he was going off the rocker towards the end, I think he is an example of one of the more sympathetic villains that we’ve had. I think, you know, we talk a lot about Killmonger being one of the best ones. Gorr, the God Butcher, you know, just the type of villain where you can actually understand the motivation. And I think for a Gravik, again, like even though he was going for something like World domination, which tends to be a little less empathetic, I guess like, you know, from an audience standpoint, we tend to, at least I do, gravitate less towards villains who are like, let me take over the planet, because like, who really does that? But I think in Gravik’s case, because he is an alien and because you know his backstory, that doesn’t even bother me. That’s like, oh, okay, I get it. You were a kid who was used by the man that you looked up to to further his career and his ends, you know, ends justify the means with Nick always. And at the end of the day, you were, you know, losing- what does he say? Like he lost a piece of his soul every time he killed someone. He was, you know, hurting himself emotionally from a young age in order to impress this man who, to your point, later abandoned him and I think, though I would hope many of us don’t have heroes who force us to kill people. You know, when your hero does disappoint you or someone you look up to does disappoint you, whether that’s a celebrity, someone in your life, whatever, it is enraging, you know, to watch that person kind of fall off that pedestal that you’ve put them on. And so in that way, I think Graviks is a really good villain because you’re able to empathize on a human level with him. That being said, he deserved before he died, to have that closure. 

Katie: He did. 

Taylor: And now what’s unfortunate is because G’iah revealed herself, which she had to, he knew that that heart-to-heart that he had was not with the man who actually did the damage. I think I would have felt less icky about it if perhaps she had managed to keep the Nick shell on because at least so Gravik, he would have died thinking he said his piece and gotten his closure, whereas he knows he didn’t. He knows the man who he looked up to, who betrayed his trust, didn’t even respect him enough to confront him face to face and have that conversation face to face and I think that’s just even more devastating. And look, I’m not trying to apologize for Gravik, but I do think on a human level, I empathize with his experience there.

Katie: I agree. So I think for me that wraps into so much of this just in this moment itself. I feel it could have been done very differently. I understand where it went. I understood the reasoning, and where it went, but just it cheapened a lot of the past five episodes and the relationship we were given between Gravik and Fury, and I think it cheapened his character development.

Taylor: I agree. 

Katie: That was huge and that’s why I said, you know that thing with Varra. It’s an important conversation, but it’s not as important as this one would have been. And it was a great conversation and then I found out it wasn’t Nick Fury.

Taylor: Yeah.

Katie: What do you do with that, then? It’s like, okay, he’s at the freaking hospital. He isn’t even- it’s not even as if he’s on comms or something. He’s not. He has no clue this conversation took place, so it just was insanely disappointing to me. I also think we had such a track of, well, Nick Fury is out, you know, look at him. He’s worn down. It’s he’s not the same Nick Fury anymore. And I think once again, because he wasn’t there to actually confront Gravik, it just didn’t help to prove that Nick was back. I mean, I don’t really see hardcore Nick Fury and what happened in the hospital.

Taylor: Well, I actually would disagree because I think that way. So one of the things that I think we’ve pointed out about Nick is he’s good at playing to people’s strengths, right? And utilizing their strength for a common goal. And that’s something that we saw in The Avengers using Coulson’s death, all of that. I think what Nick did in the hospital is play to his strength, right? Manipulate the situation, use his espionage skills, tag along with or not tag along, but tag team with another spy to get it done and then speak truth to power in the sense that he is giving the president a glimpse into something that the president really I don’t want to say he knows nothing about it, but he doesn’t believe yet, right? And so in doing that, he’s doing what essentially a spy is supposed to do, gather the intel and then give it to the people in power and that’s exactly what he was doing. And so I think he’s really playing his strengths as a master spy in that situation. I do believe on an emotional level, he should have been at the scene with Gravik. However, physically he was no match. He was never going to be able to handle that on his own. I don’t even think Nick Fury in his prime could have handled that, to be honest, let alone, you know, where he is in advanced age now.

Katie: I don’t think he should have had to handle it physically on his own, but I do think he should have been there not just for the emotional level, but I do think he should have been there in some way in physicality. G’iah should be there at the end of the day. She just as much should have been there. And I think at least that’s something I can agree with is G’iah needed to be the one to fight Gravik. Regardless of the strength and the super Skrull enhancements and everything else. They were the two opposing and they weren’t even necessarily opposing, but they were the two main leaders of the revolutionary Skrulls. He might have been the face, but she was what the people saw every day. She was the person who was taking care of the refugees.

Taylor: Well, she was the heart.

Katie: Exactly. And so it needed to be G’iah at the end to finally take him down. But I do think Nick needed to be a part of the fight in some way, for me, at least personally, to really show me Nick can not only just confront his past, which I think shows that Nick’s kind of stepping into himself again, because that’s the biggest thing, right? He does all these things and can’t, he can’t confront it. I mean, he makes the choices he makes, and that’s it. That’s Bible for him. And so I think to see him become, you know, all the Nick Fury again, I think I needed to kind of see him be a part of that battle.

Taylor: I think that’s fair. I will say to counter that one last time. You know, I think so many times there are multifaceted battles, right. I think we saw two parallel issues, really. You not only had the issue of Gravik as a superpowered Skrull, but you also had larger political and geopolitical issues. So I don’t think that Nick was completely divorced from the fight. He just was divorced from that part of the fight. And now I totally get it again, like he probably should have been there, too all your points about his past and his connection to Gravik, and again, like that is a sign of disrespect, essentially, that he didn’t feel like that was the part that really needed his attention. That G’iah had it. He didn’t respect Gravik enough to be like, yup, I have to be here and confront you. But again, like he’s playing to his strengths and there is a second level to this battle that is more suited to what he can actually contribute to than necessarily having some heart-to-heart with Gravik, you know what I mean?

Katie: Yeah. I follow where you’re I and I and I can’t say I disagree. I just think at the end of the day, I just felt like that just was a place he needed to be for multiple reasons. But I want to take this apart a little further. And quite frankly, just talk about the G’iah and Gravik fight, because I’m not sure what that was. It was a pain point for Katie, though, because, wow, I’m not sure fully what I expected. Maybe because when we saw Extremis, I mean, Extremis isn’t really a person, so it didn’t feel weird even with when we saw Gravik execute with the Groot arm that didn’t feel that weird yet somehow this entire battle where like random body parts of just other superheroes that we all know and love just were being formed. And I have to say logically, it makes sense. Skrulls take on the forms of other-

Taylor: Beings?

Katie: Yeah, living things because it’s not just humans. I’m trying to make sure I don’t or it’s not just aliens. I want to make sure I’m inclusive of everybody they can shapeshift into, but I just, and maybe this goes back to the fact that now all I could think about is this is how the She-Hulk ending was going before it was stopped. And that’s all that’s going through my head because I’m like, was that really the big battle? I’m not sure what I just watched.

Taylor: Yeah, it was very weird. It was very weird. I liked it, I guess? I liked the challenge of trying to determine who it was every time they changed. 

Katie: Yeah. 

Taylor: So, like, you know, you got a Korg arm, you got a Drax, you got a Hulk, you got the Frost Giant thing, you got.

Katie: Mantis.

Taylor: Captain Marvel, obviously, Mantis. Like, there was some cool stuff with the strength that kind of reminded me of Cap. So like-

Katie: You know what the worst part is, though? It’s not Cap’s it was Bucky’s.

Taylor: How do you know?

Katie: Because they show it on the computer and you could see some of the people who were in the Harvest. Winter Soldier is one of them.

Taylor: So was Captain America. So it could have been either one. 

Katie: I didn’t see Cap.

Taylor: No Cap was one because I clocked that one immediately.

Katie: I saw Winter Soldier and Gamora. Those are the two that like, really are in my brain.

Taylor: No, it was Cap. They had some of the children of Thanos.

Katie: Yeah, I saw that.

Taylor: Yeah and especially what he did where he lifted the rock. That was the one who goes after Strange in Infinity War.

Katie: Ebenezer. 

Taylor: No, Ebony Maw. Were you going to say Ebenezer Scrooge? Cause I would have died.

Katie: I wasn’t going to say Scrooge, but I was really passionate that his name was Ebenezer.

Taylor: No, it’s Ebony Maw. 

Katie: Well, there was just a lot in that. I do have to say, I was enjoying seeing who they were forming into. After seeing Winter Soldier on the screen, I was intrigued about where that was going to go. If there was going to be a random metal arm getting grown and then that never I just because I was like, if we’re going to go here, let’s just go here. It’s already weird. But I think what got me was, as I was kind of pointing out, I didn’t think the Groot and Extremis stuff felt weird. I think I thought, okay, Caps’ a great example, or Winter Soldier, whichever one. Super strength.

Taylor: It’s universal, it’s not physically iconic.

Katie: Right. It’s just it’s an enhancement, essentially.

Taylor: Yeah, but when she pulled out Drax’s arm, I mean, it was like, you cut off Drax’s arm.

Katie: Was that the budget? Because what was that? That hurt me. That was the worst scene of the entire thing. It was very strange and uncomfortable. 

Taylor: Also was weird because she was full-on wearing a long-sleeved jacket, which was odd, and like, I totally get that they weren’t going to like, Gravik was shirtless. Okay, you’re not going to make Emilia Clarke be shirtless. That’s totally fine. I just the outfit choice was really throwing me. I don’t know. And I know that’s such a stupid thing to say.

Katie: There were a lot of choices that were made during this scene. And I think the biggest thing was I didn’t expect that level of physical changes. And so Captain Marvel made sense. They got her glo, you know and the glow in the eyes, everything else. I was like, okay, I think the irony of it was I expected more of the mystical and the powerful types than I expected the actual physicals. And ironically, if you really think about the people not included, a lot of the ones who have natural powers, such as Thor (Katie was incorrect here. Thor was in fact on the list) and Wanda were not on the list.

Taylor: I was straight up waiting for Wanda because I was like, heck yeah, let’s do it.

Katie: And that’s why I was even more confused because I was like, oh, we went for the really random physical one. So we had, you know, who someone was comparing this to and I have to say, I’ve never seen this movie and I’m sorry, I do need to watch it. That Free Guy movie that Ryan Reynolds did.

Taylor: Oh, I’ve never seen it, but I know what you mean.

Katie: Yeah. Someone was pretty much like that is what the scene was. And it made sense to the few clips of that movie I’ve seen that I understood where that person went with that. I just, it was weird. I wish they would have just stuck to the different enhancements you got from people rather than growing their actual parts because it was just strange. I didn’t understand why- I felt we had four or five different enhancements or characters that they, you know, had a nod to that felt like the same character. I mean, Hulk, Drax.

Taylor: Korg.

Katie: Yes, kind of the same vibe.

Taylor: Yeah. Strong dude, Big arm. That was like what they went for the whole time.

Katie: Exactly. So I was really not sure what kept happening here. But this whole scene, I mean, I could just cancel it right out of the whole thing. We could just cut and it would be better, in my opinion, because I’m not sure what I watched for 30 seconds.

Taylor: Yeah, it was very weird. It was just kind of like left me feeling meh. I don’t want to feel meh after a fight, but that’s kind of how I felt. And look, I will say we’re going to have an entire episode talking about G’iah and her future now, because she has that very interesting little rendezvous with our BFF Sonya, and she now is arguably the most powerful person in the universe. So, you know, that needs to be said and it deserves its own episode because realistically, who can beat her now? But, you know, we’ll talk about that at length another time.

Katie: Wanda can.

Taylor: Well, yeah, I mean, yeah, except if she pulls out and figures out how to use Wanda’s powers, in which case.

Katie: But Wanda’s blood, to our knowledge, wasn’t included in there so.

Taylor: I didn’t see every name.

Katie: Doctor Strange can. His powers are learned. 

Taylor: Yeah. Okay. Totally. I just.

Katie: You posed the question and I had answers.

Taylor: No, you’re not wrong. I was processing. I just, I think there are people who could potentially take her. But I will say, like, it would be tough. Like she is now up there with a Wanda, with a Carol, with a Thor. She needs to be in that conversation now.

Katie: Which is just so weird to me because it’s just mainly powers she stole from other people and I just find it so weird.

Taylor: Exactly. None of them are her own, but she also has this now- think about it. She has a crazy healing factor now so she has a lot going on. And again, we’re going to talk about that another time. But I did just want to put that out there that now we have just watched the creation of another exceptionally strong being because she has stolen the powers of all of our strongest beings. And what I think I realized in having this conversation is that what bothers me potentially the most is I was just really hoping that they were going to drop the Harvest on the floor and squish it and instead now became a problem for a later date. And I think maybe that’s my biggest problem with the episode is that that should never have been allowed to happen. Realistically, what were they thinking?

Katie: So there are levels to this and I have about four thoughts I got to get out. I don’t disagree with that. First thing I want to say, which is semi-unrelated but related enough that I want to get out before I get to the most related part of it. Carol could have swooped in at the end of this, beat Gravik, we never needed to do this whole Harvest thing.

Taylor: I totally agree.

Katie: And then we would have been like, hey, this dives right into The Marvels because Carol was on Earth because of being snapped onto it on accident.

Taylor: Better yet, she uses her powers and Monica shows up because that’s what we’ve seen happen in the show or sorry, the trailers. And now you’re immediately setting up even further the movie more than even Ms. Marvel did.

Katie: Yes, exactly. So I think any of the Marvels showing up would have been a better choice than creating what they created with G’iah. Don’t get me wrong, I love Amelia Clarke as G’iah. I will be beyond happy to see her moving forward. Should we have created a very strange and mega-enhanced Super Skrull? No, I don’t understand that. I also I think and this is something I talked about in the blog post last week, the Harvest being on the board was stressful enough, but I almost would have preferred it stayed on the board as a possible power play later on, than this really weird- we got introduced to it in episode five and then it got inserted into Gravik and G’iah for episode six and now we just have a mega-enhanced Super Skrull. I would have rather almost had, and I wouldn’t have been The Falcon and Winter Soldier, but a Falcon and Winter Soldier-like show come from this, with the Harvest at play. Someone like the Power Broker going after the Harvest.

Taylor: Where was Valentina?

Katie: Yeah. Hold on. There’s a whole lot of stuff we didn’t see, and we’ll get to that. But, you know, think about how The Falcon and Winter Soldier very much was looking for Super Soldier serum. We already had a show very similar. I wouldn’t be against seeing the Harvest, be at play again and again, or maybe not again and again, but at least in the future. Instead, as I said, we had this very strange super being created. I feel really weird about it. And you know, the only reason I kind of counter just dropping it on the floor and calling it a day, although I do agree why it was put into play fully here and allowed to be used was beyond me. I wouldn’t have wanted to see just dropped on the floor and be done because then why introduce it?

Taylor: Well as a bargaining chip, but I get your point.

Katie: Yeah, it just would have been a waste in my mind to be like, oh my God, Nick Fury collected all the Avenger’s blood and put it in a vial, and so many bad things could happen from this. And then the next episode, it’s, oh, it’s gone.

Taylor: Well, it could have been an interesting growth moment for Nick to destroy this thing he never should have created in the first place.

Katie: Yes, but would Nick have really done that? Because I think we saw- think about the growth. We really want to talk about his growth? If he was a five, he went to maybe a six. 

Taylor: I was going to say five and a half. 

Katie: Okay. I was too, but I thought you were going to say six so I said higher. I was also going to say 5.5. He budged, but not a lot. Nick would not take one of the last things he has of some of these heroes and get rid of it. But instead, he had it put in Gravik and G’iah because that makes sense.

Taylor: Well, and again, there’s no guarantee that G’iah comes out of that alive. What if that fight goes in the opposite direction? Now you have a virtually unstoppable Gravik who is bent on destroying the human race. What? That is a crazy risk. I’m sorry. You know, everyone wants to say, you know, the World Security Council had a lot to say about Nick’s risk-taking in creating the Avengers in order to stop Loki in 2012 Avengers, right? But at the end of the day, it was six on one. They were superpowered beings and they all had one goal in mind, right? This was a one-on-one fight with a super angry Skrull versus a less combat-trained Skrull. We have no indication that G’iah got any more than the basic combat training as a Skrull. Gravik, as was implied, was a spy for Nick Fury, which means he probably went through extensive combat training.

Katie: Well, did you see him and Pagan in episode three, I think it was? Where they went to get that guy who Sonya had been torturing in the meat place. 

Taylor: Yeah, yeah. So lethal. And that to me is such a crazy risk to put him in a fight with G’iah and say, G’iah, the fate of Earth is on your shoulders, and that’s not even 50/50 is 60/40 and Gravik’s favor because of his training. And that is insane. Why was that even a thought to go about it that way? That’s what I was saying drop it on the floor because that to me is a better choice than actually inserting it into Gravik and being like, yeah, let’s go fight to the death now. Like what? Who came up with this plan?

Katie: And quite frankly, I’m not going to lie to you. I thought that because we obviously already saw some instability in Gravik. I thought when I still believed Nick had gone in with- they were both in the machine, that obviously Nick would live. I thought, okay, whatever this machine is, it’s not going to affect him because, one, he’s not a Skrull. Two, he doesn’t have any serum in his body to do anything to him. So I thought, okay, maybe Nick’s just got to live, whatever. Gravik still takes the Harvest, but I honestly just thought he was going to implode pretty much. I mean, not, not just explode from the inside out, but I pretty much saw it kind of being an inner battle inside Gravik with all these different pieces of DNA inside of him until they pretty much kill him because they’re fighting for dominance inside of his body. That’s kind of what I thought was going to happen. And honestly, truly, I could’ve done without the fight scene and I could have been okay with it going that way. Because if that had been the real Nick, I feel the conversations would have made sense for wrapping it all up, and I think it would have very easily still been Nick outsmarting Gravik and saying, you know, it’s your own need for power, that’s your own demise. And I think it would have been a lesson. It would have been proper to have Fury there as Gravik died of his own ignorance and need for the power that he craved so much. And it just would have made a lot more sense. You know, we’re already saying it was anticlimactic. Let people say that’s anticlimactic, but at least to me, it made sense to the storyline more than whatever the heck we just got.

Taylor: Yeah, I agree. I don’t know. I just feel so funky about that fight scene. I really do. I wanted to like it. I wanted to be like, this is cool because I want to think all fight scenes are cool. And I wanted to think that one was cool because it’s two Super Skrulls going at it like that should have been awesome. But it wasn’t because it didn’t make sense and it was just weird.

Katie: Yeah, I think I also felt it was a little weird because not that I don’t know cell phones exist because duh, but it just was weird because we really didn’t see G’iah with Fury after Talos’ death.

Taylor: Yes, we did. 

Katie: When? 

Taylor: There’s that scene in the place.

Katie: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. But other than that, I mean, they go their separate ways. We really almost never see G’iah and Fury together in general in this show. And so I guess maybe that’s just a visual disconnect for me because we never actually really see them together much. That knowing they made this whole plan off-screen was very strange me because it just felt, I don’t know, it made things feel a little more disconnected than I think I felt comfortable with because, I mean, even keep in mind the last episode, she was with Varra the whole time.

Taylor: Yeah, I will say though, how do you preserve the twist if you know that? 

Katie: Right and I thnk that’s fair.

Taylor: You know, I think it makes the twist more shocking to not even know that they were in league together than all of a sudden, out rips G’iah and you’re like, ooh. Versus like, oh, they were talking like, that could totally be G’iah, you know what I mean?

Katie: Yeah. I just think the harder part was you kind of already knew they talking. And even if you didn’t know for sure or you didn’t feel as passionately sure about it as I did, you still could have predicted. I mean, at the end of the day, they were still going to end up for certain reasons on the same side of this battle specifically. And I just I don’t know, it felt kind of weird that suddenly G’iah was there and Nick was never there. And we really never saw Nick and G’iah interact much. And it just felt a little disjointed to me. I just and maybe this is because too, we’re used to by the end, all our heroes end up around each other. And this isn’t really how this show played out. We had a lot of teams of two everywhere that never really manifested into a bigger team.

Taylor: Yeah, that’s fair. I think that’s a good point. I do want to go into some of the things that we didn’t in the show, and then I also wanted to go into a very, very important and pointed question that was asked by our good friend, Agent Ross. But to start- Katie made a very, oh, I know what you’re going to talk about face, which I thought was quite obvious in my lead-in, but all right.

Katie: Well, I was zoning out slightly and you said that and I was like, because I’m not going to lie. That was the best part of the episode, in my opinion, so.

Taylor: 100%. Yeah, I know. I saw you going and then I saw you come back. So it was very visible on your face that you were like, not quite with me, but I think, you know, there were a few things in this show that we were expecting to see that we didn’t see, and one that I mentioned earlier is obviously Valentina. I remember seeing in the Google cast that she was on so or in the cast. So I’m not really sure, you know if she was in a cut scene or a cut end credit or whatever it was. But I don’t know about you, I didn’t see a Valentina. I really thought when she, when G’iah was going through and unlocking people, that we were going to get more people than just Rhodey and that was a major, major disappointment to me. I was like, show me some other people that are Skrulls. And, you know, I really, really wanted to see that. So that one kind of bummed me out.

Katie: I’m going to respond to both of these and then I have my own. I definitely expected Valentina at the end. I think that made the most sense. G’iah definitely- not that I’d be saying she’d be on the Thunderbolts per se, but she definitely would run with that type of crowd.

Taylor: It would be weird though, cause she and Ghost like, did you notice that Ghost was one of the people? And then she used Ghost’s powers. Like, imagine this girl rolls up with these powers you never wanted and this girl kind of lowkey chose it. What a slap in the face if you’re Ghost.

Katie: Yeah, I don’t disagree. I definitely think that would have made more sense to me. I’m not against the Sonya/G’iah thing. Wherever those ladies are going next, I want to go. But now I’m even more confused. I’m not sure where that’s going to go. And that’s and we’ll cover all that in its own episode. I’m just that’s its own thing. I definitely expected Valentina or quite honestly, I expected Sonya to kind of turn around and mention, oh, my friend or something, you know, something to kind of make that connection because I definitely think those two ladies have to have a connection. So it felt weird.

Taylor: MI6 and CIA? Are you kidding me? 100%.

Katie: Well, that’s what I mean. So I just don’t know. I did expect Valentina. I definitely expected to see more people, even just one other. Even when they were just unveiling all of the different humans. And was I not right? Was I not right? I called this on the predictions episode that those pods were all humans in stasis. I knew it. I just need to say that because I did very well with this show. I was really disappointed, especially when Sonya pulled the one, I don’t even know, sheet back a little bit and was just a random dude. 

Taylor: I know. 

Katie: I kept staring at him as if I was supposed to know him and it was just some blond guy.

Taylor: You know what would have been crazy? What if it was like the original Cap? And the whole reason he went back in time was Peggy was because it was a Skrull.

Katie: I was thinking the same thing, but I also trying to figure out strategically why the Skrull would have done that.

Taylor: Why not create a universe in which the Skrulls are allowed to live freely on earth?

Katie: Yeah, but how much do the Skrulls know?

Taylor: I don’t know. I don’t. I’m just putting that out there.

Katie: That’s what I mean. That mixes two of our big storylines and I’d rather not at the moment think about that because that gives me a headache. But I really did expect a lot more coming from that. I will say the thing I didn’t see and maybe you know what, if there are any eagle eyed listeners out there and you’re about to tell me I’m wrong, please seriously do. And maybe I looked away during the scene, but did we ever see the DODC or the case?

Taylor: Oh, no!

Katie: And that wasn’t the trailers, right? Like, I didn’t make that up.

Taylor: I mean, I didn’t see the DODC, but we all know in terms of eagle eye level, I am not there, so you know.

Katie: That’s true. But I’m I mean, where would I have gotten that information from? 

Taylor: I don’t know. 

Katie: That was definitely in the trailers.

Taylor: I was really excited when you brought it up, though, like in the trailer, I was like, oh, yeah.

Katie: Well, I’m trying to understand not seeing them. Okay, fine. But what I’m not sure now is because I could kind of be like, okay, well, they got the Cull Obsidian DNA from the DODC. Somehow, someway, maybe the guy’s a Skrull. The guy who leads whose name I don’t bother to learn, but we never saw it. I just. I feel like I have to fill in those blanks with information. I didn’t actually get. It just felt weird.

Taylor: I wonder if it was a cut scene, to be honest.

Katie: But then why are we putting it in the trailer? Because that was even more weird to have put it in the trailer when it had- I didn’t need to ever see that and it wouldn’t have changed how Secret Invasion took place, you know? 

Taylor: No, I understand that, but we all know that they’re not afraid of putting fake footage in trailers. So, you know, I think we always have to take trailers with a very large grain of salt because, I mean, I think about Infinity War all the time, that big scene where they’re all running that never actually showed up in the film. Like this is not the first time that they’ve left scenes on the cutting room floor that they put in a trailer.

Katie: I don’t disagree with you, but I have to say the Infinity War scene to me is different because it was purposely misleading from a very hurtful ending versus it doesn’t to me have the same impact to just have left a random scene of a DODC case with the possibility of it being a Cull Obsidian body part, and they just put that in the trailer and then walk away. The Infinity War one was purposely deceptive so that we had no clue what was going to be happening in that movie because we were like, oh, cool, another team up here come our heroes. Yay! And that was going to be that. And instead everybody got really hurt that night.

Taylor: Instead, there was a lot of pain to go around and nobody felt good. And I cried on the streets of Spain, and a bunch of Spaniards kept staring at this wailing American.

Katie: Dude, I was walking in the middle of the road. It was raining. I had my Avengers blanket and my ICEE still and I was just crying. And my friends were recording me going, ‘because you had a bad day.’ It was just and it’s a very iconic video to this day because it’s like, what did you just do? I came out of Avengers: Infinity War and it’s midnight and I’m very sad, but I don’t know, I just feel like there’s a different levels of misleading and I don’t know, it just felt weird.

Taylor: I don’t disagree. I just think, you know, that’s the prime example. But there have been other examples of misleading trailers since then. That’s like obviously the most well known. I just think they’re very much in the business of not giving anything away and if they had some extra footage so that, you know, they could use a throw us off, then what the heck, go for it. And that’s what they did.

Katie: Well, you know what they really should have done if they wanted to throw us off was not include the case, not include a scene with Gravik and his arm. And then we wouldn’t have even started really predicting much about Super Skulls because we wouldn’t have gone there thinking they weren’t going there. So that’s actually what they should have done. And then as the Super Skrull stuff started kind of coming more to light, that would have been a more raw reaction, instead of knowing Super Skrulls were going to be in the show.

Taylor: Super fair, super fair. Last piece and then we’re going to call it because like I said, we’re going to talk about the president and his new war on Skrulls and also his future and G’iah in separate episodes, because those weren’t their own discussions for sure. But the last thing I want to talk about is Ross asking the question that the audience all is now asking or has been asking for a while, which is, hey Rhodey, how long have you been here? Because I’d like to know.

Katie: Yeah. So here’s my thing. First off, watch me eat these words in six months. But to everybody out there who’s saying Rhodey has at least been Rhodey since Civil War, calm down.

Taylor: You mean he’s been a Skrull since Civil War or he’s been Rhodey since Civil War?

Katie: No like everybody’s saying, they can only confidently say he’s been Rhodey since Civil War. I don’t believe that for a second. There is no way. First off, we already have confirmation that the Skrulls were not forming at that time. The revolutionary Skrulls did not form until later on.

Taylor: Yes, that’s an important distinction. 

Katie: I know where your counter argument is going to go so let me just explain. 

Taylor: I no longer have one. You clarified what I needed you to clarify.

Katie: Okay, good. I’m still going to argue the counter argument then that I had in my head.

Taylor: The counter counter?

Katie: Yeah, the counter counter. So first off, let’s calm down, okay? There is no way, like I said, watch me eat these words in six months, but there’s no way they’re going to sit there and tell us that Rhodey has not been there truly since Civil War. Okay, no. Second, let’s look at his character. Truly look at his character. First off, Taylor, you pointed out the braces, a great giveaway because that’s something everybody is pointing out now that Rhodey stumbled out of the thing because he couldn’t walk out of the machine because he doesn’t have legs that work.

Taylor: This girl called that four episodes ago. So I would just like to say for everyone, Katelyn, who is like, but he wears braces under his clothes, no.

Katie: Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. I was just throwing out the theory. I didn’t shut you down. I just said, I’m going to counter it with saying maybe the technology has gotten a lot further than we know. I just think they quite simply didn’t want to have to have whoever that Skrull was wear the things on all the time.

Taylor: Yeah. And the second he stumbled out of there, I was like vindication.

Katie: Yeah, but that again, he wore them in Infinity War and he wore them and Endgame on top of that again and I went into detail with this and in one of the blog posts, I think it was episode four or was episode four the one he was revealed in?

Taylor: Four he was revealed in I think.

Katie: Then it was three. He passionately tells, I don’t know what he is at the time, General Ross, I don’t know what his position is, I don’t remember, off pretty much and is like I regret signing the Sokovia Accords. Pretty much he says screw you and Infinity War before Cap and Nat and all them walk in he pretty much says screw you to the general. Then he goes to work for the government? That’s weird. That’s just a weird change of pace because he is very I mean, actually technically makes himself a fugitive by aiding fugitives. So there’s that.

Taylor: Well, the Sokovia accords no longer exist, so.

Katie: Right, but at that time.

Taylor: Yeah, I think though, after they brought everyone back, they were kind of all given blanket- remember, they were given blanket amnesty for everything because that’s Sharon’s whole thing.

Katie: Yeah, but you’re like, hold on, hold on. You’re on a different-

Taylor: I’m not understanding what you’re trying to say to me right now.

Katie: My point is, is there was no gain for a Skrull there when we saw that the Skrull instead needed to infiltrate the government.

Taylor: Correct. Look, here’s my thing, though. Rhodey is a career- no, I know what you’re saying. You’re saying there’s no point in the Skrull taking over Rhodey until he’s back in the government, right? 

Katie: No.

Taylor: I don’t, then what are you saying then truly, like, make your point clear because I’m not picking up what you’re putting down over here, dude.

Katie: Okay. My God. Okay. Rhodey in Infinity War pretty much says screw you to the government, becomes a fugitive because the Sokovia Accords are still in place in Infinity War. 

Taylor: Correct?

Katie: Okay. A Skrull has no reason to have done that. This proves he would not have been a Skrull in Infinity War either. Yes, following?

Taylor: I now understand what you’re saying. 

Katie: Okay. 

Taylor: You were not explaining that clearly earlier.

Katie: Okay. The listeners can be a deciding factor in that because they’re going to hear this whole conversation.

Taylor: I might strategically edit some things. No listeners, you have my word that unless it’s us flubbing words, I won’t take it out. I promise.

Katie: You guys better make sure you hear that and hold her accountable for that. But that’s my point. And then when the Skrulls come into the picture, then making him kind of go more into the government again after they are granted amnesty and everything else makes more sense. But initially, I’m trying to help disprove the fact that there are people throwing out that he has been we’ve seen a Skrull as Rhodey in Infinity War and Endgame. That’s what I’m currently trying to help disprove, because I think Falcon and Winter Soldier? Yes, that was a Skrull. That was a Skrull. Okay. Period. The end.

Taylor: I would agree. And I think to further your point, though, where I was going and I think it supports your theory as well as I don’t necessarily just think that the Skrull is when he started to go back to the government. I think naturally Rhodey is a career military man. That’s who he is, as we’ve always known him to be. He clearly believes and the American government and the rule of law. That’s why he signed the Sokovia Accords to begin with. I think he was PO’d at Ross, you know, rightfully so, after everything happened. But I think at the end of the day, he wasn’t able to keep away from the thing that he made his career. And so I could see real Rhodey going and joining back up into the government. And that’s when the Skrull says, this one, we’re going to take this one, right? I don’t think it necessarily has to be that the Skrull overtook Rhodey and then made their way back into the government. I think that could go either way. The one other thing that I want to say about when it could be is this Skrull did not understand who Rhodey was as a human being at all. This person push on people who outranked Rhodey by a mile that our Rhodey would never have spoken to the president the way that he did. As we talked about, he never would have spoken to Nick the way that he did because our Rhodey understood the chain of command and where his place was in that chain of command. And always, always because of his military background, respected that. This Skrull just kept pushing the agenda of the Skrulls harder and harder and harder. And now I don’t think that Rhodey was that way in Endgame. I don’t think he was that way in Infinity War. He was not to me, his personality was not off. I don’t think we saw him enough and he had enough screentime in Falcon and the Winter Soldier to say one way or the other that definitively he was not himself. The one thing I will say, however, and we talked about this a little bit, is the one thing that he did do, if I remember correctly, was push Sam to memorialize the shield, take away the symbol of Captain America. Now you’re taking that symbol, that hero, though he may not be advanced or sorry, enhanced, you’re taking that symbol off the board, because even though Steve Rogers is no longer around having any Captain America around goes against what the Skrulls are trying to do.

Katie: Yeah. 

Taylor: So I think in that way I could see that being a mark in the favor of Rhodey being a Skrull already in the Falcon and the Winter Soldier beyond some of the other things that Kevin has said.

Katie: Yeah, I mean, I’m still going to say 100% Falcon Winter Soldier before that- I mean, also I just and I said it was for I’ll say it again, it’s wrong of them to have say that wasn’t really Rhodey in Endgame. But I guess in my own brain it just doesn’t make sense to have him there when everybody was dusted and we also know there was no reason to. The Skrulls were not yet almost unionized, if you will, because that’s like kind of what the direction they went. As for Ross, we talked about this before. Wakanda Forever, that was not Ross I don’t believe that was Ross and the actor who plays him has come out and said, you know, I wasn’t playing a Skrull, or at least I didn’t know I was playing a Skrull if I was or something like that. He pretty much was saying he wasn’t playing his character any differently than he would have. And I’m like, yeah, that’s fine. You don’t necessarily have had to, but I definitely I don’t think that was Ross in Wakanda Forever.

Taylor: I disagree. I think the change the change happened after he went on the run.

Katie: Yeah, but he was less valuable on the run.

Taylor: Still had contacts? I don’t know.

Katie: Yeah, but I think he had a lot more value before went on the run because of who he had contacts with and who he was directly in line with versus once he was on the run, that cut some things up.

Taylor: I guess I just didn’t see enough, like with Rhodey it was so obvious to me from the beginning, right, that he was so off. But like Ross, maybe he had a better Skrull playing him. 

Katie: We also only had about 2.5 seconds of Ross and that conversation with Fury and Rhodey didn’t go weird until about halfway through.

Taylor: But that was also his first appearance.

Katie: Right, but think about how much more time than Rhodey. Even that conversation alone was more screen time than Ross had.

Taylor: I understand that. You’re missing my point. I’m saying that for Black Panther, he was not off. He was not weird. He didn’t ring the alarm bells that Rhodey did. You know what I’m saying? Like Ross was exactly who I expected him to be.

Katie: Yeah. Just keep in mind, though, they’re almost retconning this.

Taylor: I understand. I just personally don’t think. I think it makes more sense to have him when he was on the run.

Katie: I don’t. Not for the Skrulls. I think, like, logically, maybe for the MCU as a content creation platform, but I don’t think for the Skrulls in the storyline it makes sense.

Taylor: Yeah, I mean, I guess we’ll just have to agree to disagree on that one. I don’t know. We’ll see how that shakes out, but I just don’t I don’t know. I don’t feel that way about Ross. Anyway, we’re going to call it a wrap on our Secret Invasion Episode Six reactions. Like I mentioned, we’re going to pepper in a few more deeper dives on a few topics relating to this show. So if we didn’t talk about something that you felt was important, also known as the President’s new war on Skrulls, we will get to that in much, much, much more detail and how that might affect the MCU in the future as we roll out a few upcoming episodes. I just want to say now that we’re wrapping this up, thank you for coming along this journey with us. We’ve had a lot of fun covering it. We’re excited to dive into a few new topics between now and Loki, which is our next show coming out all the way in October. So we’ve got quite a bit of time to deep dive into some fun stuff with you guys. If you would like to join us for all of these deep dives, fun conversations, replays, we’ve got a whole mixed bag ready for you for the next few months. You can subscribe on your podcast platform of choice. Please also make sure you’re checking out our website and blog. We have lots of good information on there and also an area where you can support the show if you would be so kind, it helps us make the show better for you.

Katie: Follow us on Twitter at SisAssembledPod and Instagram and Threads at SistersAssembled just to keep up with everything we’re doing and when everything is coming out, there’s also some really great extra content on there as well. And as Taylor said, we are going to be doing some fun episodes that go into a little bit more detail of certain things from Secret Invasion, sort of the finale maybe touch on some of the series as a whole. So that means our next episode is going to be going into G’iah and pretty much, you know, Super Skrull G’iah, who she is now, what her future might hold, what it all means. So we’re going to be talking about that next week. So make sure you guys keep an eye out for that as Marvel just blew your mind, so let’s talk about it.